Large Scale Central

Who makes which scale?

General Discussion
#41

The naming of scales is an interesting exercise. I think the use of Gxx is elegant, but I think I’d prefer G 1/29, etc. Otherwise the designation looks a bit like a code, only for the “in crowd”.

I note however, that 1/32 and 1/24 have been around for a century or more, under the designations #1 and #3 scales respectively. I consider my chosen modelling scale as “3 n 3 1/2”.

When it comes to the scale accuracy of a given model, LGB has no monopoly on flexible rulers. I’ll admit I’m curious as to the scale of the Fortuna Flyer and the bubble car, but the company generall stated that their models are 1/22.5. I guess it’s up to the buyer to decide if the model’s dimensions fall within a reasonable margin of error. This, of course, is true for ALL models from ALL manufacturers.

A few other scale questions:

  • Accucraft’s centre-cab diesel?
  • Bachmann’s 4-wheel box cars?
  • almost anything from Hartland?
  • Ruby?
  • anything that claims to be 1/29 scale?
  • Bachmann’s Annie?
  • Accucraft’s Egg Liner

Why is it that only LGB is subject to this scrutiny?

#42
Kevin Morris said:
..............................

Why is it that only LGB is subject to this scrutiny?


Kevin,

It all depends what you read and where you read.

Interestingly GARTENBAHNprofi magazine does plenty of reviews on NA rolling stock and the scrutiny is always on the same level. The BIG difference is the A, B and U trio or quartet have no problem stating a scale. It’s 1:20.3 or 1:29, clearly stated!

Not so with LGB, well OK, at one time they tried to tell everyone that their wares are 1:22.5. A lot of people bought that line for a long time, however that’s what it is for the most part, “a line” and anyone who went to the effort of measuring and comparing knows.

I started in LS (strictly 1:22.5) in 1999, in 2000 I started comparing the first items. In 2003 I started writing the first reviews, same year the “G - wie Gummi” Feuilleton was published. I had used the phrase for several years prior to that. “G” just doesn’t turn my crank, nor do producers who promise one thing and fall woefully short on delivering.

BTW I apply the same standards to other goods that are not counted as life’s necessities and when it comes to food - one of life’s necessities - I get downright picky. From what they tell me we only live once, no reason to put up with stuff that doesn’t live up to the billing. Goes for food or model railway items. :wink: :slight_smile: :wink:

#43
Kevin Morris said:
The naming of scales is an interesting exercise. I think the use of Gxx is elegant, but I think I'd prefer G 1/29, etc. Otherwise the designation looks a bit like a code, only for the "in crowd".
The problem with using the Letter G to describe 45 mm gauge is that 45mm is not the only gauge used in Large Scale. A very large market exists in the UK and elsewhere for narrow gauge models of 2' gauge prototype built to 16mm scale (or 1:19 if you will), running on 32mm gauge track. ie #0 gauge. If you are going to make a list that is supposed to include everything that LS interest must also be taken into account. Gxx or LSxx will not work for everything. If anything it should be #1xx or #0xx I know "LS" nomenclature is ass backwards but it is time it was put right.
Kevin Morris said:
I note however, that 1/32 and 1/24 have been around for a century or more, under the designations #1 and #3 scales respectively. I consider my chosen modelling scale as "3 n 3 1/2".

When it comes to the scale accuracy of a given model, LGB has no monopoly on flexible rulers. I’ll admit I’m curious as to the scale of the Fortuna Flyer and the bubble car, but the company generall stated that their models are 1/22.5. I guess it’s up to the buyer to decide if the model’s dimensions fall within a reasonable margin of error. This, of course, is true for ALL models from ALL manufacturers.

A few other scale questions:

  • Accucraft’s centre-cab diesel?
  • Bachmann’s 4-wheel box cars?
  • almost anything from Hartland?
  • Ruby?
  • anything that claims to be 1/29 scale?
  • Bachmann’s Annie?
  • Accucraft’s Egg Liner

Why is it that only LGB is subject to this scrutiny?


All valid points.
I think you need to realise that criticism of non scale models that claim to be scale is not only reserved for the BS that came from LGB and still comes from LGBofA.
years ago when AC first brought the ex Delton 2-8-0 they described it as being an “exquisite scale model”. I was taken to task by AC and berated volubly for having the temerity to say that “whilst it might be exquisite it was not scale”. Especially as the boiler sat way above what was a prototypical height above the frame.

I don’t know how many more times you need to be told that neither Dave Goodson, HJ or myself hate LGB. We just wish they would tell the truth. Likewise the other manufacturers who are loose with the truth.
When they start doing that we won’t have any axes to grind. Will we?

#44

Because LGB has been the subject of recent discussion, if I remember right when ACs Dash9 came out it got put thru the ringer for scale disrepencies and QC issues so its not just LGB that gets the treatment. All of them get it to one degree or another.

#45
TonyWalsham said:
Seems to me the list is becoming so large it needs to be revised in such a way as to be more easily understood. Nowhere is there listed the fact that "LS" (as in Large Scale) models are also built to run on 32mm gauge track to represent 2' gauge prototype. Even H0 track is used to represent 15" gauge in 1:22.5 scale. I believe Tom Yorke is making kits in that scale.
Also Regner's RSSB line at 1:22.5 on 35mm track.
#46
Jack Barton said:
TonyWalsham said:
Seems to me the list is becoming so large it needs to be revised in such a way as to be more easily understood. Nowhere is there listed the fact that "LS" (as in Large Scale) models are also built to run on 32mm gauge track to represent 2' gauge prototype. Even H0 track is used to represent 15" gauge in 1:22.5 scale. I believe Tom Yorke is making kits in that scale.
Also Regner's RSSB line at 1:22.5 on 35mm track.
Jack. Please get your facts right.

The Regner 1:22.5 line runs on the correct 30mm gauge track.

#47
Victor Smith said:
Because LGB has been the subject of recent discussion, if I remember right when ACs Dash9 came out it got put thru the ringer for scale disrepencies and QC issues so its not just LGB that gets the treatment. All of them get it to one degree or another.
......and although the AC Mikado (read Pacificado) and Mallet (2 x Pacificados) are claimed to be 1:29 scale, as they are not models of any particular loco that actually existed how can they be called scale?

The list goes on and on.

#48
TonyWalsham said:
I don't know how many more times you need to be told that neither Dave Goodson, HJ or myself hate LGB. We just wish they would tell the truth. Likewise the other manufacturers who are loose with the truth. When they start doing that we won't have any axes to grind. Will we?
I am reminded of an investigative journalist's article in the Globe & Mail about 10 years ago. The journalist had investigated the truth of Farley Mowat's book "Never Cry Wolf". After exhaustive research, he came to the conclusion that Mowat had "embellished" his experiences in the Canadian north, and wrote a lengthy article to that effect.

Upon the release of the article, the rest of Canada gave a large groan and said, “Well, duh!!”

That’s how I feel about LGB. When a manufacturer produces Snoopy cars, the Fortuna Flyer, bubble cars and exploding dynamite cars, not to mention the US outline 2-4-0, I’m not too surprised to find that they’ve taken liberties with “scale”. I don’t understand why anyone would think otherwise.

LGB models are very well made, run nicely, and are quite robust. They also have visible screw heads, deep flanges, and crude couplers. They are what they are.

Although a statement of scale is a good and useful thing, when it comes to freelance models I’m just as happy to know the major dimensions to see if the model will fit my railway’s loading gauge.

This “truth” you are seeking just doesn’t exist. How can LGB state a scale when their models are not necessarily built to a specific scale? And it’s not unique to LGB. Nothing in 1/29 is “scale”, similarly with OO scale and 1/4" scale. Even 1/32 scale on 1.75" track is out of gauge by half and inch (ie. it scales out to a track gauge of 4’9", although I understand this is fine for European standard gauge).

#49

Several points to make: Starting with Tony, the Aristocraft Mallet is modeled after the Norfolk and Western Y3.

Point 2 is the use of “large scale” as a designation: it is also used by those who ride on their trains. Point 3: Getting manufacturers to agree to anything will occur one month after they all agree that everybody’s couplers should be compatible. If any agreement comes out of this among us here, it should be for our wiki only…unless someone wants to adopt it elsewhere but we should not expect others to agree. Point 3 is that there are so many scales and gauges within the realm of the non ridable models that it’s almost endless. We in the US see HO as very stable, but outside the US it’s more like LS in that there are variances in scale and gauge…especially if you want to throw in 00 with the mixture. Oh, and Thomas Yorke models in Gn15 as it’s called currently. Also there is 1:23.x (don’t remember the last #) which is use by the Japanese because their trains are 42" gauge. Also the QLR (Queensland Au.) is 42" gauge and I’m sure there are others. The only sane way to handle this would be to divide the scales and gauges up by geographical areas. For instance 16mm is rarely modeled by those living in the US. The only 2’ gauge modeling in US outline in the US that I’m aware of is being done in 7/8ths for the Maine 2’ guys. 1:24 is currently a dying breed in the US. I have no idea how it’s doing outside the US. For US modelers anything outside 1:32, 1:29, 1:22.5 and 1:20.3 would be considered niche modeling.

#50
Kevin Morris said:
The naming of scales is an interesting exercise. I think the use of Gxx is elegant, but I think I'd prefer G 1/29, etc. Otherwise the designation looks a bit like a code, only for the "in crowd".

I note however, that 1/32 and 1/24 have been around for a century or more, under the designations #1 and #3 scales respectively. I consider my chosen modelling scale as “3 n 3 1/2”.

When it comes to the scale accuracy of a given model, LGB has no monopoly on flexible rulers. I’ll admit I’m curious as to the scale of the Fortuna Flyer and the bubble car, but the company generall stated that their models are 1/22.5. I guess it’s up to the buyer to decide if the model’s dimensions fall within a reasonable margin of error. This, of course, is true for ALL models from ALL manufacturers.

A few other scale questions:

  • Accucraft’s centre-cab diesel?
  • Bachmann’s 4-wheel box cars?
  • almost anything from Hartland?
  • Ruby?
  • anything that claims to be 1/29 scale?
  • Bachmann’s Annie?
  • Accucraft’s Egg Liner

Why is it that only LGB is subject to this scrutiny?


It’s late, been a hard day…but did you mean Aristo’s centre-cab dismal?
And Aristo’s Egg-liner?
Bachmann’s 4-6-0 is of the Tweetsie engine, repainted and lettered for about any road in existence.
Bachmann 4-wheel boxcars. Now, ya got me there.
Hopefully in the morning I will remember those.
Caboose, ore cars, yes, 20-foot 8-wheel boxcars, yes…but a Bachmann 4-wheel boxcar? Aristo made some, but I sure am trying to remember a Bachmann #1 gauge 4-wheel boxcar.

1:29 is a scale. While it is the wrong scale to gauge, it is, nevertheless a scale. If stated, it needs to be adhered to.

A spread of 1:26 to 1:31.2 is not close.

Why is your beloved ex-LGB subject to this scrutiny all by itself?
It isn’t.

But all the major players at least tell you what the scale is SUPPOSED to be and you can compare.

The precise reason appears to be the reluctance to state, discuss, or conjecture.
When the Ventilators come out in force (what, 4 or 5 of them?) and start calling names, making assinine statements, accusing folks of saying things they never did, well, when that happens, some folks tend to look a little deeper to find out what they are hiding.

#51

Kevin,
I cannot dispute any of what you say.
It is up to the public, as in LS consumers, to critique the various models. This is what the Net does very well.

The problem with Large Scale is that it is really the only facet of Model Railroading where the Toy Train Toy Train (TTTT) market and the Scale Model Toy Train (SMTT) market are combined. The “0” scale market went through this many years ago. Now it is “HiRail” and “Scale”.

Compared to most of the popular scales neither the TTTT market nor the SMTT market are very big. So manufacturers have to try and maximise their market by aiming their products at both customers.
LGB has always been aimed at the TTTT market which they once dominated.
Lately the share of the market has diminished in the face of competition from SMTTs.
The problem for LGB, and others is, that if they simply say “we don’t make scale models”, they immediately lose a fairly large potential market. So they try and fudge it by alluding to scale. I can’t blame them really. They have a huge investment and want a family of trains to look good together. Unfortunately for them, they cannot have it both ways any longer, no matter how hard they may try.
Lack of “truth” about scale does not help the LS newcomer make informed decisions.
The sooner the LS manufacturers accept that LS’ers want to know what the scale is, the sooner we might get them. SMTTs that is.

That whole mentality of obfuscating the “truth” applies not only to scale.
It also applies to the way the models are marketed. Take for example the fiasco Bachmann created for themselves with the Tsunami (Quasinami) advertising. We seekers of the “truth” may not have forced Bachmann to change the ads, but change the ads Bachmann did.

#52
TonyWalsham said:
....and although the AC Mikado (read Pacificado) and Mallet (2 x Pacificados) are claimed to be 1:29 scale, as they are not models of any particular loco that actually existed how can they be called scale?
Freelance models can (and should, IMHO) be scale. The manufacturer just has a lot more leeway since there is no prototype with which it can be compared. On a freelanced loco, the best determination of scale is the cab and how it compares to a human figure of the stated scale.
#53
Ray Dunakin said:
Freelance models can (and should, IMHO) be scale. The manufacturer just has a lot more leeway since there is no prototype with which it can be compared. On a freelanced loco, the best determination of scale is the cab and how it compares to a human figure of the stated scale.
Absolutely. "Freelanced" does not mean a caricature. Rather, an attempt to model what "might have been". I did one many years ago using a Lionel 675 boiler, and a 1946 Turbine chassis. I made a "Lionel Scale" L-1S Mikado. Markers, bell, whistle, all in the right place, just to see if I could.

It’s out there somewhere.

In model railroading, the vast majority “free-lance” their railroads.
Only a small handful model the Santa Fe in East Jerkwater, Missouri, at 4:10 PM on 02JUL1946.

Those guys find photos of the DUST on locos that day and get THAT right!

#54
Kevin Morris said:
Even 1/32 scale on 1.75" track is out of gauge by half and inch (ie. it scales out to a track gauge of 4'9", although I understand this is fine for European standard gauge).
Kevin:

Not so.

45mm track gauge is NOT 1.75", but rather 1.77". When that converted number is multiplied by 32 (as in 1:32 scale), it equals 56.69" on the prototype. This is ‘in error’ by 0.19" (rounded) or ~3/16". The ‘error’ is only +0.3%.

If you were to use 1.75" (incorrectly) as the track gauge, multiplying it by 32 gives 56.00", which is 0.5" or 1/2" too narrow, not too wide. Even that ‘error’ is only -0.9%.

For readability, the above calculated results are rounded to two places, but the actual calculation precision is to nine places.

Happy RRing,

Jerry

#55
Jerry Bowers said:
Kevin Morris said:
Even 1/32 scale on 1.75" track is out of gauge by half and inch (ie. it scales out to a track gauge of 4'9", although I understand this is fine for European standard gauge).
Kevin:

Not so.

45mm track gauge is NOT 1.75", but rather 1.77". When that converted number is multiplied by 32 (as in 1:32 scale), it equals 56.69" on the prototype. This is ‘in error’ by 0.19" (rounded) or ~3/16". The ‘error’ is only +0.3%.

If you were to use 1.75" (incorrectly) as the track gauge, multiplying it by 32 gives 56.00", which is 0.5" or 1/2" too narrow, not too wide. Even that ‘error’ is only -0.9%.

For readability, the above calculated results are rounded to two places, but the actual calculation precision is to nine places.

Happy RRing,

Jerry


Jerry,

Thanks for correcting that one. :wink: :slight_smile:

Where does “fuzzy math” originate? Perhaps the same place as the re-proposed Large Scale NMRA Standards?

BTW SG in metric dimensions is 1435mm; makes the scale calculations a “piece of cake”.

#56
Kevin Morris said:
........................................

This “truth” you are seeking just doesn’t exist. How can LGB state a scale when their models are not necessarily built to a specific scale?

…


Kevin,

The following are statements from the

LGB Quality Facts:
Why is LGB the best?
English
April 28, 2004
Adobe Acrobat (PDF) Version

LGB QF said:
LGB Quality Fact

Compare LGB to other trains…

We research real trains.

LGB trains are real replicas of real trains. We don’t just work from pictures or copy
other models. Our experts travel around the world to research the world’s great trains,
capture their finest details and record their actual sounds. So you get a real model
railroad … not just a toy.
This LGB loco is a replica of a real Swiss
“advertising” loco. Even the loco’s “yodel” sound is
reproduced.

Products, specifications and availability dates are subject to change
without notice. LGB, RIGI, GNOMY, LGB of America, LEHMANN and the
LGB TOYTRAIN logotype are registered trademarks of Ernst Paul
Lehmann Patentwerk, Germany. Other trademarks are the property of
their owners. © 2004 Ernst Paul Lehmann Patentwerk. Fact Number: 11
Modification date: 4/28/2004

LGB Quality Fact

Compare LGB to other trains…

LGB trains are G-scale.

LGB trains are G-scale (1:22.5). That’s almost four times larger than conventional
HO-scale (1:87) trains. So LGB trains have more detail and are more rugged than
smaller trains. With big wheels and big rails, LGB trains can run outdoors in rough
conditions that would derail smaller trains. The result? The bigger the train, the better
the fun.
This chart shows the relative size of LGB “G-scale”
and other scale trains.

Products, specifications and availability dates are subject to change
without notice. LGB, RIGI, GNOMY, LGB of America, LEHMANN and the
LGB TOYTRAIN logotype are registered trademarks of Ernst Paul
Lehmann Patentwerk, Germany. Other trademarks are the property of
their owners. © 2004 Ernst Paul Lehmann Patentwerk. Fact Number: 12
Modification date: 4/5/2004

LGB Quality Fact

Compare LGB to other trains…

We use 24-karat gold for critical electrical contacts and detail parts.

Look at the shiny details on many LGB locos. They look like gold, don’t they? That’s
because they are gold. In fact, they’re plated with 24-karat gold. And we use gold in
many places you can’t see, like on critical electrical contacts. Even though you can’t
see them, they’re important to us … and they’re important to making your LGB trains
run as good as they look.
Real gold is used on LGB trains to make them look
and run better.

Products, specifications and availability dates are subject to change
without notice. LGB, RIGI, GNOMY, LGB of America, LEHMANN and the
LGB TOYTRAIN logotype are registered trademarks of Ernst Paul
Lehmann Patentwerk, Germany. Other trademarks are the property of
their owners. © 2004 Ernst Paul Lehmann Patentwerk. Fact Number: 34
Modification date: 2/27/2003

LGB Quality Fact

Compare LGB to other trains…

LGB trains are made in a clean factory.

For a fine finish, painted products have to be manufactured in a clean environment.
That’s why we filter the air in our painting rooms and maintain clean rooms throughout
our Nürnberg factory. So your LGB trains aren’t covered with dust speckles or bumps.
That’s why your LGB trains look great.
See any dust speckles? We filter the air in the
LGB factory so you don’t.

Products, specifications and availability dates are subject to change
without notice. LGB, RIGI, GNOMY, LGB of America, LEHMANN and the
LGB TOYTRAIN logotype are registered trademarks of Ernst Paul
Lehmann Patentwerk, Germany. Other trademarks are the property of
their owners. © 2004 Ernst Paul Lehmann Patentwerk. Fact Number: 43
Modification date: 2/27/2003

LGB Quality Fact

Compare LGB to other trains…

LGB trains include clear, complete instructions.

When you get a new LGB train, you also get complete instructions written in English
by an English-speaking LGB expert. You don’t have to translate a foreign language or
read a clumsy translation. Clear diagrams show major components and controls.
Product lists tell you which LGB products are made for use with your train. Parts lists
simplify maintenance. And historical information on real trains make your LGB model
even more enjoyable!
LGB instructions make it easy to use and enjoy
your LGB trains.

Products, specifications and availability dates are subject to change
without notice. LGB, RIGI, GNOMY, LGB of America, LEHMANN and the
LGB TOYTRAIN logotype are registered trademarks of Ernst Paul
Lehmann Patentwerk, Germany. Other trademarks are the property of
their owners. © 2004 Ernst Paul Lehmann Patentwerk. Fact Number: 58
Modification date: 11/3/2002


If anyone cares the above statements could be compared with the actual facts. :wink: :slight_smile: :wink:

#57
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
Where does "fuzzy math" originate?
I started my engineering career in the 1950s. We used slide rules for all calculations. When the only way to correctly place the decimal is by 'place counting', it was really important to do the mental checks to determine whether the results made sense. I still use that same type of logic to check results from my digital engineering calculators. It doesn't completely eliminate the possibility of errors, but really helps. A plus is making one fully understand the results.
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
BTW SG in metric dimensions is 1435mm; makes the scale calculations a "piece of cake".
Yeah, that one's easy. Too bad 36" gauge isn't as easy (36"=914.40mm).

Happy RRing,

Jerry

#58

Kevin, et al.

As HJ has shown. LGB state in the own promotional material. “LGB trains are G-scale (1:22.5)”

I don’t think we are imagining that.
1:22.5 might be true for some of the range but it is obviously not true for all of their range.
In fact it is patently absurd to claim the Genesis is 1:22.5 scale, let alone the Mikado etc.

Can you see how a newcomer would become confused?

LGB, and others, do themselves a disservice by persisting with such claims.

#59
TonyWalsham said:
Kevin, et al.

As HJ has shown. LGB state in the own promotional material. “LGB trains are G-scale (1:22.5)”

I don’t think we are imagining that.
1:22.5 might be true for some of the range but it is obviously not true for all of their range.
In fact it is patently absurd to claim the Genesis is 1:22.5 scale, let alone the Mikado etc.

Can you see how a newcomer would become confused?

LGB, and others, do themselves a disservice by persisting with such claims.


Ah yes, but the Aster/LGB White Pass mikado actually IS 1:22.5 - except for the wheels, which are 4mm too big.

I measured both the real thing and the model about four years ago for mylargescale.com.

Oh, yes, the 45mm track gauge is wrong too, for the 3 foot WP&YRR…

Apart from that, it’s a darn good model, but then, LGB didn’t make it - Aster did using the LGB mikado mechanism. I won’t go there…

tac

#60
TonyWalsham said:
Kevin, et al.

As HJ has shown. LGB state in the own promotional material. “LGB trains are G-scale (1:22.5)”

I don’t think we are imagining that.
1:22.5 might be true for some of the range but it is obviously not true for all of their range.
In fact it is patently absurd to claim the Genesis is 1:22.5 scale, let alone the Mikado etc.

Can you see how a newcomer would become confused?

LGB, and others, do themselves a disservice by persisting with such claims.


Tony,

There are more examples of the same “creative mindset” in that PDF. Since it is entitled “LGB Quality Facts” it must be true, mustn’t it? :wink: :slight_smile:

Unless the “Products, specifications and availability dates are subject to change
without notice.” includes anything and everything that was ever written, published and otherwise claimed in any which manner at any which time.