LGB will live on forever , in our hearts and minds , long after the factory doors are locked closed , LGB remains the most talked about trains in the world .
A fitting tribute to LGB
Dennis Paulson said:Well, there are a lot more people in Germany who were talking a lot more about real trains in the most recent past. The DB engineers had a go slow and/or strike on the go. Same happens in Italy, France, England etc. etc. the railway crews go on strike, there is a lot more talk than there is about LGB, trust me.
LGB will live on forever , in our hearts and minds , long after the factory doors are locked closed , LGB remains the most talked about trains in the world . A fitting tribute to LGB
But these little tribute interjections always remind me of the beer ad I saw in Adelaide, Australia back in 1991.
It was a two phrase dialogue showing brand “whatever”
“It won’t improve your sex live”
“That’s refreshing to know”
Clever lads those Aussies! 
And probably more truth in that ad than most anything we have seen from LGB, eh!?!
Dennis Paulson said:Dennis-
LGB will live on forever , in our hearts and minds , long after the factory doors are locked closed , LGB remains the most talked about trains in the world . A fitting tribute to LGB
Just so you know I am not having a “go” at you, but, if you count the years, and decades, and century, and numbers of trains…Lionel beats the ex-LGB line hands down.
And they are stilll around!
TonyWalsham said:
Jack. Please get your facts right.The Regner 1:22.5 line runs on the correct 30mm gauge track.
Thank you Tony for your correction and your usual polite style. I forgot to go out to the layout and refresh my memory. After reading so much of the usual diatribe, my mind tended to to go soft. Sure glad to know that the 30mm gauge is correct so I don’t have to rip it all out and trash it.
Yes TOC , I only need to look up from this keyboard , and see 6 or so Lionel locomotives , and rolling stock for them also .
I like ALL trains , the bigger , the easier to see .
The front room has a large figure 8 of Lionel track on the floor , so the grandkids and I can run some trains here in the house , I had picked it up after the holidays , but Grandma wanted it back down again for the grandkids .
Trains can be fun , if we let them !
I was Lionel Hi-Rail for 40+ years.
Still have it ALL.
Dennis Paulson said:Two words, Delton, and Kalamazoo
LGB will live on forever , in our hearts and minds , long after the factory doors are locked closed , LGB remains the most talked about trains in the world . A fitting tribute to LGB
I think it should really say:
LGB will live on forever in new labeling from recast molds, long after the factory doors
in Germany are locked closed yet opened anew in China. LGB will remain one of the most talked about trains in the world even as its molds and tooling continue to produce familiar products thru different manufacturers.
ANYONE who thinks we have seen the last of LGBs products is completely delusional…no one is simply going to toss those molds, I remain convinced that whatever happens, whoever wins out, we will continue to see familiar products coming out of SOMEONES factory doors…the question is whos doors will that be? and what quality these newly recast item are?
PS anyone else a little unnerved at how close Piko’s new track was announced and how close it is to LGBs? ? ?
Wonder if they didnt have that waiting in the wings after all the “troubles” of their neighbor over the last two years.
Jack Barton said:TonyWalsham said:
Jack. Please get your facts right.The Regner 1:22.5 line runs on the correct 30mm gauge track.
Thank you Tony for your correction and your usual polite style. I forgot to go out to the layout and refresh my memory. After reading so much of the usual diatribe, my mind tended to to go soft. Sure glad to know that the 30mm gauge is correct so I don’t have to rip it all out and trash it.
Nothing that running a train or two - doesn’t matter which gauge - won’t fix.
Victor Smith said:
...........................................PS anyone else a little unnerved at how close Piko’s new track was announced and how close it is to LGBs? ? ?
Wonder if they didnt have that waiting in the wings after all the “troubles” of their neighbor over the last two years.
No not at all, I expected as much just as soon as I read Dr. Wilfer’s report regarding the Vegas convention.
As soon as they decided to start producing SG Euro it was just a matter of time. They proved with the Taurus that they can get in the market at the low end and make a go of it. Anyone who doubts that should look at the rest of the Piko Hobby line - that’s what they aim at the entry level of the hobby in general. Having a little tiff with Märklin about the “ICE” being a copy of Märklin’s could have had some bearing on developing the 45mm track line. At the latest when Kingsbridge acquired Märklin, those in the industry pay close attention to what is happening in the industry.
BTW Märklin lost in court on the “ICE” battle; the judge decided that if the model was close enough to the original it had to be as close as any copy you would plagarize from a competitor . (I paraphrase!) Sounds like pretty good reasoning to me!
Perhaps that’s part of the reason LGB’s scale is off, any copy would be “distinguishable” at first glance or no later than checking the “scale dimensions” (aka dementions in some quarters).
Victor Smith said:Dennis Paulson said:Two words, Delton, and Kalamazoo
LGB will live on forever , in our hearts and minds , long after the factory doors are locked closed , LGB remains the most talked about trains in the world . A fitting tribute to LGBI think it should really say:
LGB will live on forever in new labeling from recast molds, long after the factory doors
in Germany are locked closed yet opened anew in China. LGB will remain one of the most talked about trains in the world even as its molds and tooling continue to produce familiar products thru different manufacturers.ANYONE who thinks we have seen the last of LGBs products is completely delusional…no one is simply going to toss those molds, I remain convinced that whatever happens, whoever wins out, we will continue to see familiar products coming out of SOMEONES factory doors…the question is whos doors will that be? and what quality these newly recast item are?
PS anyone else a little unnerved at how close Piko’s new track was announced and how close it is to LGBs? ? ?
Wonder if they didnt have that waiting in the wings after all the “troubles” of their neighbor over the last two years.
Nobody I know ever said they were gone for good or won’t be re-animated at some point.
But, any discussion of that is derailed immediately by The Ventilator Group, that hates any discussion of the subject.
Didja notice when facts are laid out (even off the former company website) that said facts are ignored?
VERY selective in who or what they want to engage in “bashing”.
No mater how many times they try to put words in someone’s mouth, or pass around discrediting information, too many folks have seen through the charade and realize The Ventilator Group is full of manure.
I guess maybe we should call it “The Group Ventilator” so we can abbreviate is “TGV” and keep it train related, huh?
The 26th is coming up fast.
I noticed…
Just a random thought but, maybe Piko bringing track and new trains to market now has more to do with being very aware of LGBs troubles beginning 2 or more years ago. If was apparent then that EPL was in serious trouble Piko might have greenlighted the track and train development to fill the potential gap if EPL went into insolvency. From what I’ve read online, LGBs fiscal troubles were a well known secrets to most insiders, and given Pikos close relationship with LGB in the past they would have had a heads up on the issue. Even so, between LGBs collapse and that loss of track manufacturing, and the recent AC track price panic, bringing new LGB type track to market now is a stroke of genius, I dont think they could have picked a better time to be the calvary riding over the hill to save the ranch for the LGB track dependant folks, so to speak.
As quoted from Dennis Paulson…“LGB remains the most talked about trains in the world .
A fitting tribute to LGB”.
Dennis, for almost forty years the legend of LGB was, in my opinion, a fact and the inherent quality made it so. This is the Lehmann tribute. However, the last twelve months have seen this tribute dwindle to the point that the only discussion on the topic are ‘opposing forces’ getting the point across that while the company was legendary, its administration was maybe not to the same standard and the pro side arguing the positive side of the ‘current’ management (to what end). There seems little attempt to actually show the inherent quality that was the trademark of the company, under the leadership of Wolfgang. I must admit that management decisions andmarket forces had corroded the future of the company when the reins were handed over to the siblings and that they are not entirely responsible for the downfall. The ‘current’ leadership team seems to have a strong lobby support base. However, considering the circumstances of the failure/acquisition of the company, one must question the voracity of the lobbying being carried out. Let’s get serious about this ‘debate’. The spin being carried out is nothing short of ‘presidential hypocricy’. The spin doctors should have used their energy to debate the merits of the company and not focus on personalities and scale ‘shortcomings’. Once an argument is down to personalities then the true message is lost in translation. Any further discussion can only be detrimental to the topic.
What ires me is that the pro side have a good opportunity to express and debate the history of the company and yet the discussion centres squarely on debating current personalities and nit picking over perceived (advertised) scale innaccuracies. Those on the pro side are all long-term owners/collectors of the product and it is up to them to present the company in a positive light. The current debate/discussion/argument over who uses what rubbery ‘scale’ rule, does not bolster the image of the company, but in the end damages its image. There are some for whom scale is irrelevent and Lehmann products are their choice. For others the actual scale is very relevent. Instead of arguing the merits of either side of the discussion we should be embracing our love and enthusiasm for the hobby. There is something for everyone.
Hmmmmmmmm,
We are on page three in this thread and the history of that Wiki page (Who makes which scale??) tells me that apart from some Brits deleting comments they didn’t like - on the discussion page, no less - there has been very little if any input since Terry added his bits.
BTW as far as I’m aware - mind you I could be wrong - the discussion page is there to discuss any relevant points of the page to which the discussion refers. Adding to the discussion by all means, deleting someone else’s comments. Tsk, tsk, tsk!
Curmudgeon said:Kevin Morris said:
The naming of scales is an interesting exercise. I think the use of Gxx is elegant, but I think I'd prefer G 1/29, etc. Otherwise the designation looks a bit like a code, only for the "in crowd".I note however, that 1/32 and 1/24 have been around for a century or more, under the designations #1 and #3 scales respectively. I consider my chosen modelling scale as “3 n 3 1/2”.
When it comes to the scale accuracy of a given model, LGB has no monopoly on flexible rulers. I’ll admit I’m curious as to the scale of the Fortuna Flyer and the bubble car, but the company generall stated that their models are 1/22.5. I guess it’s up to the buyer to decide if the model’s dimensions fall within a reasonable margin of error. This, of course, is true for ALL models from ALL manufacturers.
A few other scale questions:
- Accucraft’s centre-cab diesel?
- Bachmann’s 4-wheel box cars?
- almost anything from Hartland?
- Ruby?
- anything that claims to be 1/29 scale?
- Bachmann’s Annie?
- Accucraft’s Egg Liner
Why is it that only LGB is subject to this scrutiny?
It’s late, been a hard day…but did you mean Aristo’s centre-cab dismal?
And Aristo’s Egg-liner?
Bachmann’s 4-6-0 is of the Tweetsie engine, repainted and lettered for about any road in existence.
Bachmann 4-wheel boxcars. Now, ya got me there.
Hopefully in the morning I will remember those.
Caboose, ore cars, yes, 20-foot 8-wheel boxcars, yes…but a Bachmann 4-wheel boxcar? Aristo made some, but I sure am trying to remember a Bachmann #1 gauge 4-wheel boxcar.
Yes. It was late. But although I can’t quote the catalog numbers, I think you get my point, even if you don’t want to admit it.
Curmudgeon said:Why do you reject a model whose length and width are not necessarily the same scale but at the same time you accept a model whose length is and track gauge are different scales, ie. 1/29 with 1/32 track gauge?
1:29 is a scale. While it is the wrong scale to gauge, it is, nevertheless a scale. If stated, it needs to be adhered to.
I understand that LGB doesn’t specify a scale for the Genesis, et al. In truth, they can’t. But perhaps this is more honest than saying 1/29 scale but forgetting to mention that the gauge is 1/32.
Curmudgeon said:I agree its a wide spread, but I also think 1/29-1/32 is too wide a spread. Some people can live with the latter disparity but apparently not with the former.
A spread of 1:26 to 1:31.2 is not close.
Curmudgeon said:I don't love LGB. I find the company arrogant and their products overpriced. But I'd rather have then around than not have them around. FWIW, I have 12 locos: 6 LGB (2 were gifts), 4 Bachmann and 2 scratchbuilt. If Aster brings back the "mining mogul" I'll buy 4-6 of them ;-)
Why is your beloved ex-LGB subject to this scrutiny all by itself? It isn't.
Curmudgeon said:
But all the major players at least tell you what the scale is SUPPOSED to be and you can compare.The precise reason appears to be the reluctance to state, discuss, or conjecture.
When the Ventilators come out in force (what, 4 or 5 of them?) and start calling names, making assinine statements, accusing folks of saying things they never did, well, when that happens, some folks tend to look a little deeper to find out what they are hiding.
My involvement in this thread started when someone crticised HJ’s contribtion to the Wiki. I believe these criticisms were invalid, but worse still, they seemed quick to criticise and slow to contribute.
Warren Mumpower said:This has also occurred to me. Photographers have small, medium and large format cameras. I'm inclined to think that we model in "medium scale", with "large scale" reserved for those who ride on their trains.
Point 2 is the use of "large scale" as a designation: it is also used by those who ride on their trains.
Jerry Bowers said:Kevin Morris said:Kevin:
Even 1/32 scale on 1.75" track is out of gauge by half and inch (ie. it scales out to a track gauge of 4'9", although I understand this is fine for European standard gauge).Not so.
45mm track gauge is NOT 1.75", but rather 1.77". When that converted number is multiplied by 32 (as in 1:32 scale), it equals 56.69" on the prototype. This is ‘in error’ by 0.19" (rounded) or ~3/16". The ‘error’ is only +0.3%.
If you were to use 1.75" (incorrectly) as the track gauge, multiplying it by 32 gives 56.00", which is 0.5" or 1/2" too narrow, not too wide. Even that ‘error’ is only -0.9%.
For readability, the above calculated results are rounded to two places, but the actual calculation precision is to nine places.
Happy RRing,
Jerry
At the risk of sounding argumentative, “Yes so.” #1 Scale has been around for more than a century and has used 1.75" and 45mm somewhat interchangeably. 1.75" was generally used in England while 45mm was generally used in Europe.
I concede that 45mm is very close, and would be within prototype tolerance. But it is nevertheless measureably inaccurate.
Kevin Morris said:Jerry Bowers said:Kevin Morris said:Kevin:
Even 1/32 scale on 1.75" track is out of gauge by half and inch (ie. it scales out to a track gauge of 4'9", although I understand this is fine for European standard gauge).Not so.
45mm track gauge is NOT 1.75", but rather 1.77". When that converted number is multiplied by 32 (as in 1:32 scale), it equals 56.69" on the prototype. This is ‘in error’ by 0.19" (rounded) or ~3/16". The ‘error’ is only +0.3%.
If you were to use 1.75" (incorrectly) as the track gauge, multiplying it by 32 gives 56.00", which is 0.5" or 1/2" too narrow, not too wide. Even that ‘error’ is only -0.9%.
For readability, the above calculated results are rounded to two places, but the actual calculation precision is to nine places.
Happy RRing,
Jerry
At the risk of sounding argumentative, “Yes so.” #1 Scale has been around for more than a century and has used 1.75" and 45mm somewhat interchangeably. 1.75" was generally used in England while 45mm was generally used in Europe.I concede that 45mm is very close, and would be within prototype tolerance. But it is nevertheless measureably inaccurate.
Kevin,
There is history to all this:
Märklin History said:[i] 1895 Introduction of the first electrically and steam propelled toy trains in #1 Gauge (45mm)[/i]
1895 Einführung der ersten mit Dampf und Elektrizität betriebenen Spielzeugeisenbahn in Spur 1 (45 mm).
There is a very neat time line on all of this on the Internet, don’t have the time to look for it right now. Getting all the kitchen stuff back in the new kitchen cupboards. Since I’m the primary cook, I also get to organize things. That’s the way I like it!!
On that concession
Point 1) According to “Mueller’s Rating Structure” anything that has a smaller than 1% error is “Excellent”
Point 2) Europeans have a long history of pretty logical standards - something to do with a little “French” guy named Bonaparte (it’s always those damn “immigrants”! :lol: )
To a European 44.45mm (1.75") is not a logical measurement to standardize something on. Unlike GM, who figured that 6.35mm with an odd pitch would make a very suitable thread, the European standards try to stick to size progressions that have some rhyme and reason.
As I said, there is a lot of history behind all the MRR stuff; of no interest to most, of great interest to others. It’s all out there!
Out of all of this, please remember to look outside of the immediate circle of friends.
I, for one, am definitely in the TTTT group, and most of my co-workers and friends are the same. I love the LGB gummi scale. Sorry. I LOVE that all of my LGB stuff runs around even the tightest radius curves on my layout, even if the lengths of cars is a bit wonky to the MRTT kiddos. The portion of the market that I belong to may be a smaller percentage than twenty years ago, but that portion of the market does still exist.
As has been mentioned prior, the O market has split into finescale and otherwise. The O market is also much larger than the G market. Is there enough volume to support two (or twenty) scales on 45mm rail? Who knows…
dave wiskochil said:
Out of all of this, please remember to look outside of the immediate circle of friends.I, for one, am definitely in the TTTT group, and most of my co-workers and friends are the same. I love the LGB gummi scale. Sorry. I LOVE that all of my LGB stuff runs around even the tightest radius curves on my layout, even if the lengths of cars is a bit wonky to the MRTT kiddos. The portion of the market that I belong to may be a smaller percentage than twenty years ago, but that portion of the market does still exist.
As has been mentioned prior, the O market has split into finescale and otherwise. The O market is also much larger than the G market. Is there enough volume to support two (or twenty) scales on 45mm rail? Who knows…
- Nobody wants the line to go away.
- Nobody is disparaging the line, per se.
- If it can be made more “to-scale” to suit the “scalies”, then everybody wins.
- Making mechanical concessions on a large steamer to accomodate R-1 is not the best way of going about it, if the number of first released chassis replaced are any indication.
- To have the Ventilators come out in their little group screaming to apparently stop all discussion is not only bad for their credibility, but for the ex-company and those who would be pretenders to the throne.
There is a growing number of folks who have watched the posting and rantings of the Ventilators and at least one of their leaders, and based upon what they have seen, have expressed that all interest in ever again purchasing anything from that line is now gone.
All the Big Three have gone to non-R-1 requirements on their larger stuff.
Had this company done so, who knows if they would have held onto market share in the face of more folks entering this segment of the hobby from smaller scales, or existing large-scalers realizing the need for more scale uniformity.
Yet, for how many years, any discussion of “scale” gets shouted down by Ventilators who also actively seek to have those who demand proper models thrown off of forums.
Watched it happen.
If we only knew how many and for how long asked for more “to scale” items and were ignored.
Dave W,
Some of the most often asked questions from those who just start in LS and have no MRR background:
-
Will it run on the same track?
-
Will it fit together?
-
Why are the sizes that different?