Large Scale Central

What is Amtrak's ultimat purpose?

I think it’s a fallacy to think the US could ever be like Europe in terms of rail travel. Commuter/high-speed rail won’t change our habits to going to the grocery store or post office, nor driving cross town to visit friends/family. We’re not “wired” that way, and we’re too far along now in terms of automobiles to develop the needed infrastructure to support it. (Heck, building a commuter line from Denver to Golden met enough challenges, and that’s running largely along the highway and old railroad right-of-way! Can you imagine the dust-up over extending a spider-web of light-rail out to serve the suburbs?) Commuter/high-speed rail is also not going to change our habits for traveling across the country (distances more than a day’s drive). Flying–for all its inconveniences–is still the most efficient mode of travel there. Where it can make realistic and beneficial inroads is in the regional networks. We’ve already seen this in the NE corridor, where the trains provide a viable (often quicker) alternative for traveling from DC to Boston than flying. But here’s the thing… the NE Corridor is well-connected to the major airports in the region. You can take the train to any major city, and if the train doesn’t actually stop at the airport, it’s a short ride on another train (subway, etc.) to get to it. From there you can rent a car to get where you need to go if you need to if the local metro systems can’t get you there.

It’s those networks I think we should be concentrating on in the next few decades. Let’s look at the most-traveled airline hub routes (NY-Chicago, DC-Chicago, San Fran - San Diego, etc) and figure out ways to make travel on those major (and often crowded) routes more convenient for the traveler. You’re not going to alleviate that congestion by building more airports, there’s no place to put them. The roads are already jammed with traffic with little/no room for additional lanes. Let’s link these communities that already have halfway decent intra-city rail systems already in place to take the burden off of the air networks.

But here’s the other part of that equation… Let’s also support the communities that are beginning to build these intra-city rail systems, as they’re essential for the success of the larger high-speed rail networks. What good is getting to a train station quickly if you can go no further? Maybe they don’t pay dividends in the short term (i.e., first 20 years), but as other pieces fall into place, they become essential pieces of the puzzle.

Goodness knows the roads aren’t going to get any less congested than they already are, and the convenience of air travel has been on a steady decline for the past 30 years. It used to be that Southwest was the joke of the industry for treating passengers like cattle. Now they’re arguably the tops in terms of how they treat their customers. That’d be great if they had actually improved. Alas, it’s just that the rest of the industry has lowered the bar so low to where Southwest now sits high. If we had viable alternatives, that decline, and the TSA’s ever-increasing intrusiveness–would never have been allowed to happen. Customers would have taken the alternatives, and the airlines would have been forced to respond. With no alternatives, they’re going to treat us more and more like the baggage in the belly of the plane. (Though once–just once–I’d like them to re-route me to Hawaii by accident, then take a week to figure out the mistake.) If we collectively sit here and take the crap the airline industry puts on us, all the while killing any possible alternative that’s put in front of us, then we get what we deserve. For those who think we shouldn’t spend money on railroads or other alternative transportation, I’d like to say “Thanks a lot!” Now if you’ll excuse me, Nurse-turned-TSA-Agent Ratchet is now ready for me.

Later,

K

Kevin,

Where I come from it usually works like this: One observes how other people are handling similar problems, then looks at which part of their solution one can apply to one’s own problem(s).

This probably will require quite a few new approaches in:
observing (oh we know all about that already!),
thinking (no way, we have done this for x years),
changing (why should we, let others change. Besides, it infringes my freedom.)

etc. etc. etc.

HJ, you forgot two… “You expect ME to pay HOW MUCH for THAT?” (even if it’s less expensive in the long run) “Not in MY back yard!” (Put it in HIS) As a nation we’ve lost interest in bold endeavors and large public works. Our newest great American hero…

(http://chzhistoriclols.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/funny-pictures-history-hymie-silverstein.jpg)

Mik,

The list could be a lot longer … the three I listed are, in my opinion, the pivotal ones, all else follows from there. :wink: :confused: :wink:

I just finished booking our trip on Amtrak starting from Portland Oregon going with the 30 day Rail Pass heading toward Chicago with a four day stop along the way. Then off to New Orleans for five days. Along the southern part of the States ending up in Los Angles. Staying there for four days then back up to Portland for our flight back to Hawaii. Total cost including a Roomette, includes among other bennies, ALL meals… Rail Pass, Roomette $2200 I can dig it and bought it today.
Happy rails to us or the other cowboy song !

Cheers TOF

Mik said:
Let's put the Amtrak debate into a historical socio-political frame of reference using the dates Forrest provided. So what WAS going on?... Then a history lesson...
So, Mik, what happened between 1978 and 1997? :lol:
Steve Featherkile said:
So, Mik, what happened between 1978 and 1997? :lol:
A lot more crazy crap that wasn't Amscrap related? Congress was mostly content to leave it alone (hoping it would die all by itself?)

The big thing was probably the resurgence of rail traffic due to the advent of containerized shipping… making Amtrak trains and even bigger PITA to the railroad dispatchers.

Amtrak should be privatized–(I doubt any tycoon out there would buy a dying or dead horse.)
So should NASA and the Post Office.

Mik said:
Steve Featherkile said:
So, Mik, what happened between 1978 and 1997? :lol:
A lot more crazy crap that wasn't Amscrap related? Congress was mostly content to leave it alone (hoping it would die all by itself?)

The big thing was probably the resurgence of rail traffic due to the advent of containerized shipping… making Amtrak trains and even bigger PITA to the railroad dispatchers.


Mik,

The item that saved the “freight boys” bacon (and the rest) was deregulation. If not for that, most of them would have gone the way of NYC and PRR i.e. they would have merged several of them at the brink of bankruptcy and then they would have been too big to let them fail - even way back then! Containerization/Intermodal helped but the real difference was deregulation in all its many aspects. Hmmmm … does that sound familiar?

OTOH when you compare progress of utilization prior to the slump of 2008 it is absolutely amazing how much more can be done with a whole lot less. And the “freight boys” know where to apply the money and that includes any that flows from the Feds for various projects. :wink: :slight_smile:

Q: What is Amtrak’s ultimate purpose?

The way I see it is we are our own worst enemy.
When the American public comes to it’s senses, and lose their love for the automobile then the rail will make a come back.
But I don’t think it will be necessarily on 2 rails.
Personally I would use the trains to wander about.
Back in the 60’s when I was in Boston, I used their rail system all the time.
I thoroughly enjoyed it.
Now the dismantling of the US rail systems for passengers was at the hands of GM Standard oil and a few other company’s.
This was done to force people to buy cars, and they will need fuel them.
That’s the same reason why electric cars wont become popular.
The biggest reason for that is the short range. Back before the new century GM leased electric cars that were fast reliable and had great range.
They were too good, maybe that’s why they collected them all and crushed them all, but 1. That 1 is in a car musiam with no powertrain.
Hummm, makes you wonder don’t it.

David

Every one picks on Amtrak.
Why don’t you go to the meat of the problem.
Now don’t look at this problem to intelligently.
You will let go Grasshopper feel the force.

It is hard for rail service to operate in a country that all but quit manufacturing in this country.
The reason why NYC and PRR, Reading and the rest is because the manufactures diapered.
You can’t run a railroad with very little revenue.
The container rail service wasn’t enough to save the rails.
The switch to oil fuel from coal.
You can thank the US Government, now wait they are not alone BIG BUSINESS is in there to.
The mighty DOLLAR, which now is small and scrawny.
The older people saw it. Progress they said.
Help the 3rd world country’s, Best take care of your own first, last an always.
Help the 3rd world but always remember who your working for.
I guess I said more than enough, so I’m done.
My heart wont take any more.
David

David Kapp said:
[i][/i] When the American public comes to it's senses, and lose their love for the automobile then the rail will make a come back. [i][/i]
Ain't gonna happen anytime soon. Even at $5/gal we still use our cars and probably still will at $10/gal. I'ts one of our freedoms. We can go anywhere we want any time we like. Nobody will give that up without a fight. See Ric's post above.

Amtrack serves a purpose, but I agree with Bob that fares are out of line. I’d like to take the Accella to Boston just for fun, but at $220/person round trip from Stamford, CT it won’t happen. I can drive there and pay for a hotel for that.

Quote:
Amtrak should be privatized--(I doubt any tycoon out there would buy a dying or dead horse.) So should NASA and the Post Office.
and also the airtraffic control system, all the interstates...I'd rather see them as toll roads run by some conglomerate. and of course public schools universities, fire depts. police etc. .... but most of all the military other than the national guard. After all.... every freaking adventure we've been on since and including Korea has mostly got the blue collar and poor kids killed. This was especially true in Vietnam. and don't give me no c@@p about national interest. the only national interest we had out there was projecting power to protect more c##p that we don't own or need so some fat cat can become more wealthy than he is now.

And OBL… all we needed to do was nuke ol’ OBL in October 2001 and we would have been done with that problem.

Expecting passenger rail service comparable to Europe will never happen. It’s a matter of population density and short distances.
In some parts of the US we have this and rail/subway travel is heavily utilized.

Amtrak, as far as I know, utilizes the same pricing structure the airlines and hotels do. As bookings increase, the price rises.
A one way ticket from Pennsylvania to South Carolina was $105 last summer 120 days in advance. 30 days in advance it had jumped to $220 one way.

JB…what can “Brown” do for you for 44 cents :wink:
Ralph

As much as pricing, sometimes ‘other’ things give me pause.

Ever ride the Metro around DC? Clean, convenient, feels safe. The subway in Philly? yeah sure. The cost is about the same, but I’d rather take the “night bus” – which is about how many of the bus drivers there DO drive.

My son and his wife took Amtrak from Philly to Johnstown at Christmas (Dec 22, actually) 2 years ago. Tickets were bought and paid for 2 months in advance. Baggage fees for 5 bags paid as well. They had to LEAVE the baggage at Philly because the handlers insisted there was no room. They had to STAND in the aisle with twin 6mo Infants as far as York. They were treated less than cordially. AND when we contacted Amtrak the next day about it, we were met with “So? It’s the holiday season, what did you expect?”… Like what the F—? I’d almost expect crap like that from Greyhound. But this had cost twice as much, and they had prepaid tickets. Put on another car if you know it’s going to be that busy, or stop selling tickets when you run outta seats already! – Or at least have the courtesy to apologize when you screw up. My son’s wife still says she will NEVER ride the train again.

Kim and I have been discussing taking the train to DC sometime… maybe yes, maybe no. But she’s not real happy about the idea of leaving the car in a parking garage in Pittsburgh for the entire time. She’d like it to be there (and all there) when we get back.

My wife and I just took the California Zephyr from Martinez,CA to Chicago.
It was…Fun.
I wouldn’t do it again. It was long the cars weren’t exactly dirty but pretty grungy.
We had a “Roomette” kind of grody/smelly.
If the food and accommodations were a little better it would attract more riders.

larry mosher said:
Quote:
Amtrak should be privatized--(I doubt any tycoon out there would buy a dying or dead horse.) So should NASA and the Post Office.
and also the airtraffic control system, all the interstates...I'd rather see them as toll roads run by some conglomerate. and of course public schools universities, fire depts. police etc. .... but most of all the military other than the national guard. After all.... every freaking adventure we've been on since and including Korea has mostly got the blue collar and poor kids killed. This was especially true in Vietnam. and don't give me no c@@p about national interest. the only national interest we had out there was projecting power to protect more c##p that we don't own or need so some fat cat can become more wealthy than he is now.

And OBL… all we needed to do was nuke ol’ OBL in October 2001 and we would have been done with that problem.


So, Larry is allowed to post this drivel without comment, but if I or others post something to counter this, we get slammed.

Fascinating.

On the other hand, privatizing the military might be a worthwhile idea. It’s been tried before. I wonder how that worked out?

Yes Steve, [url=http://www.easyfreesmileys.com/skype-emoticons.html]

(http://www.easyfreesmileys.com/smileys/violin-008.gif)

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Maybe we can privatize Congress, too? (And pay them only for completed campaign promises!)

Seriously though, there’s lots of things for profit private companies are good at. There’s lots of things that they aren’t - or that they won’t do because it… isn’t profitable. – Even when it needs doing.

Simplistic answers to complex problems are neat, tidy – usually completely wrong. (AND often more expensive long term!)… But they’re easier than research and critical thinking, and often requiring nearly no future effort from the guy suggesting it, either. That’s why they are so popular with political pundits… Who often know exactly zilch about the subject, anyway… and don’t really care.

Jon Radder said:
David Kapp said:
[i][/i] When the American public comes to it's senses, and lose their love for the automobile then the rail will make a come back. [i][/i]
Ain't gonna happen anytime soon. Even at $5/gal we still use our cars and probably still will at $10/gal. I'ts one of our freedoms. We can go anywhere we want any time we like. Nobody will give that up without a fight.

Amtrack serves a purpose, but I agree with Bob that fares are out of line. I’d like to take the Accella to Boston just for fun, but at $220/person round trip from Stamford, CT it won’t happen. I can drive there and pay for a hotel for that.


Boom!! What Jon said, on the money, to the point. If freedom is one of our rights, please go spend your money the way you want to, but please have the courtesy of allowing me to spend mine the way I want to.

Mik, I already thought Congress was privatized? Somebody has just paid more than I did, so they are always doing what the other people want.