Large Scale Central

What is Amtrak's ultimat purpose?

General Discussion
#1

There is an interesting article on our home page that asks the question whether Amtrak is a (1)Soviet style jobs program, or the (2) basis of the world’s best transportation system.

Now, I do not want to start a flame war, here, but the question does beg some discussion.

What do you think? Idea (1) or idea (2)? Or something else entirely?

I tend to go with idea (2), though I can see why some would espouse idea (1). I also favor the Rails to Trails program as a way to bank roadbeds against the time when they will again be needed, but that’s separate issue.

Perhaps we should send out thoughts (thoughts, not feelings) to the Honorable John Mica, R-FL,, the Chairman of the House Transportation Committee, and to Sen Tom Carper, D, DE and Sen Jay Rockefeller, D, WV The Senate Transportation Committee Chairman, who seem to favor opposing ideas.

Keep your comments pithy, as they say, but no flames, please. I have a reputation to uphold! :lol:

#2

Steve

Good topic on Amtrak. Line one, a jobs program. But most likely it is a United States prestige thing.

I read that on most routes it’s a losing deal for the tax payers to cover the losses. For my two cents worth, We use Amtrak when possible as in this coming September we going to use their 30 day plan to cover our visits to grandkids around the States. Being seniors, we get 15% of list price so it’s most reasonable way to travel if you have the time. Hey ! The food is pretty good too.

Cheers, TOF

#3

A bit of reading doesn’t hurt, I can recommend both TRAINS and Classic Trains to get a bird’s eye view from people who actually know a bit about the subject, rather than … (fill in as desired).

#4

Steve Featherkile said:
What do you think? Idea (1) or idea (2)? Or something else entirely?

  1. Or something else entirely Hmm . . . My health today is about as stable as Amtrak’s so it might be easier to quote publications than create thoughts out of scratch. 1. “Promulgated at its formation, the fantasy that Amtrak could become a profitable entity has dogged it ever since.” Karl Zimmerman, May 2011, Railroad Model Craftsman, “Amtrak at 40” 2. Wife Kathy has been doing some long-term caring for ailing family in Kansas City; she’s been using Amtrak to come back here about twice a month. Easily half the cost of gas to make trip to get her and bring back here. Lately, train is being very well patronized. This is old MoPac station in Sedalia, MO. It has recently received some serious rehab. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedalia_(Amtrak_station) http://www.greatamericanstations.com/Stations/SED

Great American Train Stations said:
Surprisingly, the MP depot was constructed in 1886, but underwent a drastic remodeling in 1951 that sheared off the second floor, reconstructed the ground floor, added new space, and completely did away with any traces of the station’s Queen Anne past.

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa309/FSW4picts/IMG_7230.jpg)

Steve Featherkile said:
I also favor the Rails to Trails program as a way to bank roadbeds against the time when they will again be needed,

Perhaps Amtrak was/is “a way to bank passenger trains against the time when they will again be needed” 4. 26 years old (1985) and I’d still call it well worth reading.

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa309/FSW4picts/IMG_7374_1.jpg)

#5

http://www.enotes.com/major-acts-congress/rail-passenger-service-act

enotes.com said:
THE ORIGINS AND GOALS OF AMTRAK

In the RPSA, Congress declared that “modern, efficient, intercity railroad passenger service is a necessary part of a balanced transportation system” and could help end highway congestion and overcrowding of airways and airports. To preserve such service, the RPSA provided for the creation of the National Railroad Passenger Corp., commonly known as Amtrak, which was originally meant to be a for-profit corporation in the District of Columbia. Amtrak was to take over responsibility for operating intercity service from any railroad that desired to get out of the passenger business, as all railroads eventually did.

The RPSA required Amtrak to provide passenger service between points within an integrated “basic system” of routes designated by the U.S. Secretary of Transportation, with a view to eliminating the least necessary operations. Supporters of the RPSA expected that by operating a streamlined and cohesive national system, Amtrak would make rail passenger service profitable again, particularly using new equipment such as the Metroliner trains that had recently been introduced in the Northeast.

Railroads transferring passenger service responsibilities to Amtrak were required to pay it an amount equal to only one-half of the railroads’ financial losses from intercity passenger operations during a single year (1969). In addition, the RPSA authorized a $40 million federal appropriation and a $100 million loan guarantee program to assist Amtrak’s start-up.

#6

While looking for information, there are A Lot of footnotes on this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amtrak#Rail_Passenger_Service_Act

Think these are texts of, at least some of, legislation establishing and regulating Amtrak.

P.L. 91-518, 84 Stat. 1327
http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/49C243.txt

49 USC CHAPTER 243 - AMTRAK said:
-STATUTE- (a) Status. - Amtrak - (1) is a railroad carrier under section 20102(2) (!1) and chapters 261 and 281 of this title; 
    (2) shall be operated and managed as a for-profit corporation;
  and
    (3) is not a department, agency, or instrumentality of the
  United States Government, and shall not be subject to title 31.</blockquote>

http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/49C247.txt

#7

http://rail-passenger-service-act.co.tv/

said:
Rail Passenger Service Act

The Rail Passenger Service Act (PL 91-518) of 1970, a United states federal law, created Amtrak, the National Railroad Passenger Corporation of the United states. This organization took over passenger rail service from the private railroads, which afterwards provided only freight service, and placed it in a government corporation.

The law was revised in 2001 to reorganize Amtrak, attempt to make it profitable, and spin off some components.

Other Amtrak laws

Amtrak Improvement Act (PL 93-146)

http://amtrak-improvement-act.co.tv/
Amtrak Reform and Accountability Act of 1997 (P.L. 105-134)
http://amtrak-reform-and-accountability-act-of-1997-.co.tv/
Rail passenger service Act of 2001 http://www.unitedrail.org/pubs/reorganize/execsumm.htm
http://www.unitedrail.org/pubs/reorganize/execsumm.htm
passenger Rail Investment Reform Act of 2003 S.1501-108th (Not Law)
http://passenger-rail-investment-reform-act-of-2003.co.tv/
passenger Rail Investment and Improvement Act of 2008 (P.L. 110-432)
http://passenger-rail-investment-and-improvement-act-of-2008.co.tv/

#8

http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/49C243.txt

Sec. 24315. Reports and audits said:
-STATUTE- (a) Amtrak Annual Operations Report. - Not later than February 15 of each year, Amtrak shall submit to Congress a report that - (1) for each route on which Amtrak provided intercity rail passenger transportation during the prior fiscal year, includes information on - (A) ridership; (B) passenger-miles; (C) the short-term avoidable profit or loss for each passenger-mile; (D) the revenue-to-cost ratio; (E) revenues; (F) the United States Government subsidy; (G) the subsidy not provided by the United States Government; and (H) on-time performance; 
    (2) provides relevant information about a decision to pay an
  officer of Amtrak more than the rate for level I of the Executive
  Schedule under section 5312 of title 5; and
    (3) specifies - 
      (A) significant operational problems Amtrak identifies; and
      (B) proposals by Amtrak to solve those problems.</blockquote>
#9

http://www.fra.dot.gov/rpd/passenger/30.shtml

FRA Home » Passenger Rail » Amtrak

U.S. Department of Transportation said:
Amtrak

The National Railroad Passenger Corporation (better known as Amtrak) is a for-profit corporation that operates intercity passenger rail services in 46 States and the District of Columbia, in addition to serving as a contractor in various capacities for several commuter rail agencies. [Rail service in Alaska is operated by the Alaska Railroad Corporation . http://www.fra.dot.gov/rpd/passenger/202.shtml ] Amtrak was created by Congress in the Rail Passenger Service Act of 1970 and incorporated in the District of Columbia in 1971, assuming the common carrier obligations of the private railroads (which found passenger service to be generally unprofitable) in exchange for the right to priority access of their tracks for incremental cost.

Amtrak’s Board of Directors sets corporate policy and oversees the management of the company. The board is made up of 7 voting members appointed for five-year terms by the President with the advice and consent of the Senate. The President has appointed the Secretary of Transportation as one of the board members.

The Federal Railroad Administration provides analytical support to the Secretary or designee, as a member of the Amtrak Board of Directors. FRA is also responsible for administering Federal grants to Amtrak , http://www.fra.dot.gov/rpd/passenger/274.shtml which has led to increased FRA oversight of Amtrak spending since Fiscal Year 2003.

Amtrak's corporate information

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer/Page/1237608345018/1237608345018
Final Metrics and Standards for Intercity Passenger Rail Service
http://www.fra.dot.gov/rpd/passenger/2165.shtml

#10

http://www.fra.dot.gov/rpd/passenger/2165.shtml

Federal Railroad Administration said:
[b]Rail Service Metrics and Performance

Quarterly Reports on the Performance and Service Quality of Intercity Passenger Train Operations under Section 207 of the Passenger Rail Investment and Improvement Act of 2008:[/b]

Published quarterly reports on the Metrics and Standards for Intercity Passenger Rail Service are available for the following periods:

Quarter Ended September 30, 2010 (Last Quarter of Fiscal Year 2010)

http://www.fra.dot.gov/rpd/downloads/Metrics_and_Standards_Report_FY_2010_Q4.pdf
Quarter Ended December 31, 2010 (First Quarter of Fiscal Year 2011)
http://www.fra.dot.gov/rpd/downloads/Metrics_and_Standards_Report_FY_2011_Q1.pdf

Section 207 of the Passenger Rail Investment and Improvement Act of 2008 (Division B of Pub. L. 110-432) (PRIIA) charged the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) and Amtrak jointly and in consultation with other parties, with developing new or improving existing metrics and minimum standards for measuring the performance and service quality of intercity passenger train operations. In compliance with the statute, the FRA and Amtrak jointly issued Final Metrics and Standards under Section 207 of the Passenger Rail Investment and Improvement Act of 2008, effective May 12, 2010. http://www.fra.dot.gov/rpd/Downloads/Section_207_Metrics_and_Standards_2010-05-05_Final.pdf

#11

Okay, ought to be plenty enough source info to research Amtrak.

{if you moon someone from the train is that an Amcrack?}

#12

It’s purpose is to give me stuff too model!
:wink:

#13
David Russell said:
It's purpose is to give me stuff too model! ;)
You have modeled AMTRAK stuff???? Who knew...... :)
#14

I’d go with the philosophy of the second choice, but with the thought that it has failed miserably.

#15

Q: What is Amtrak’s ultimate purpose?
A: To irritate the crap out of Neo-Cons and rigid Libertarians?

Let’s face facts. The mail contracts subsidized passenger travel for the first part of the 20th Century. Once they were discontinued, the true scope of the losses on most routes became apparent. And began pushing many RRs into receivership. Amscrap started out behind the 8-ball, and was set up to wither and die. – while giving the powers that be the out of, “We tried.”

We heavily subsidize(d) highways and buses because, “What is good for GM is good for America”
We heavily subsidize(d) air travel because it is/was considered ‘modern’, ‘efficient’ and sexy.
Rail travel was considered an anachronism 50 years ago. Still is.

Even though rail is the backbone of the transportation systems in most of the rest of the world:
We’ve systematically dismantled rail corridor infrastructure.
We’ve taxed the railroads to death on property (yards, lines, buildings) while mostly exempting airlines and building and maintaining airports on the public dime.
The RRs, relieved of actually running passenger service, but still required to allow the trains priority trackage rights, have been put into the position that they can only view said passenger service as a total and complete liability.
We’ve continually treated Amscrap like the redheaded stepchild of the transportation triangle, then complained because it isn’t doing better.

I repeat, it was set up with so many strings attached that it must have been purposeful intended to fail - unless those who wrote it into existence were on LSD.

So what does it all mean? While people may whine and yap about getting groped by the TSA, tarmac delays, high fuel prices, traffic gridlock, yada, yada, - They’ll STILL fly or drive because the train is too slow, inconvenient and ‘icky’. 50 years of cultural conditioning says so…

#16
Mik said:
...

I repeat, it was set up with so many strings it must have been purposeful intended to fail - unless those who wrote it into existence were on LSD.


Yep, it’s a wonder that it limped through this far. It would be a different story if there were a level playing field, but reading the objections Barstow, CA makes in regards to the Desert Xpress - they fear a drop of up to 33% of bus and car traffic on I-15 (which apparently is jam-clogged!) - puts things into perspective. I have never seen a better example to illustrate the lunacy that apparently rules when it comes to moving things on to rail. OTOH … it could be something in the water. :lol: :lol:

#17

Since I am in atlanta and the norfolk southern head quarters is here and I work retail I had the oppurtunity to ask the question of his thoughts on amtrak and he stated “that crack train slows down my 5 million dollar coal train”. that was the end of the conversation=)

Amtrak is useful in california I could go places from san jose easily! From Atlanta I can go two places new orleans at 8am in the morning or dc at 8pm in the evening.

#18
Steve Featherkile said:
....(1)Soviet style jobs program....
You know, that part of the question has been bugging me since I read it. If you turn on Fox News ALL you hear anymore is "Socialism!", "Socialism!", "Socialism!".... Often spouted by parrot ideologues as some kind of ultimate evil.

BUT, they don’t even seem to know what it really means. The dictionary says…
so·cial·ism/ˈsōSHəˌlizəm/ Noun: A political and economic theory of that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

Yep, that sure sounds like something thought up by Satan’s spawn, for sure!!! Don’t it?

Except…

When you drive to work, do you have to stop and pay a toll at every property line? No? That’s because we have a “socialist” highway system. Better dismantle it.

Do you have to hire your own guards for basic safety? Maintain your own private fire patrol? No? There’s more of that “socialism”, better get rid of those things too.

Live more than about 3 miles outside a city center? Blame a “socialist” rural electrical co-op for the fact that you don’t still use kerosene lights or have to maintain your own generating station.

Safe public drinking water? Sanitary sewerage system? A local community hospital? More of that darned socialism again!!! Better tear them all down before the idea catches on! Folks will expect you to provide their kids a basic education next!

I’m being ridiculous? No more than those idiotlogues so many choose to listen to, “comrades”.

Ya really gotta watch what you ask for, because you just might just get it.

Pure socialism stifles initiative and innovation they’ll tell you. Neglecting the part that pure unfettered capitalism brings it’s own unique kinds of miseries, too.

Like most of life’s questions, the best or correct answer is NOT “black” or “white”. It’s somewhere in the infinite shades of grey in the middle… and those who would try to limit the discussion to the absolutes are looking out only for their own selfish gains.

Waaay off topic, but ties in - How many have noticed that newly minted dictators and wannabes either try to subvert the “intelligentsia” and “media” or destroy their credibility as their very first tasks? Why? An uninformed, uneducated populace is easier to control. (Sound vaguely familiar?) Failing that, the next step is to keep folks preoccupied with “urgent” canards, and ethical/patriotic red herrings, so that they not only lose sight of the big picture, they actually do your dirty work for you. The last is where modern politics, especially the far right is headed. Socialism won’t kill this country. Those who want a revisionist “Christian Nation” theocracy and “capitalistic” feudal system have too big of a head start.

#19

Mik,
You’re last posting is one of the most eloquent rebuttals to the right wing radio whackos I’ve seen or heard. Bravo.
Its a real shame that Amtrak has and is struggling. I’ve done a lot of rail traveling in Europe and its really convenient and relatively inexpensive. Its a shame the US dismantled its passenger rail structure. Rail travel for me at least , is sure a heck of a lot more “civilized” than flying.
Dave

#20

Nice try, Steve. You were even on topic and talking about trains.