Large Scale Central

What is Amtrak's ultimat purpose?

General Discussion
#21

Dave,

I don’t visit as often as I used to, but … I haven’t driven a car in Europe since 1972. Anywhere we go there is public transportation - trains, street cars, buses and … ships on the lakes. Long distance trains on an hourly, fixed schedule etc. etc. and best of all, one gets to watch while someone else does the driving, gets to read a book or carry on a conversation with whoever else is on the train :smiley: :D.

Yes Ric,

Give the man a cigar and … make him smoke it! :wink: :open_mouth: :smiley:

PS the 57km tunnel the Swiss are building is for trains, will get many, many additional trucks off the roads (from the Atlantic to the tip of Sicily) provide still faster North-South passenger connections and running electric will keep the air cleaner, too.

#22

<Nice try, Steve. You were even on topic and talking about trains. >

Yah, Steve’s other hobby is collecting padlocks. :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

As for Amtrak, I don’t care what happens to it. It comes thru here at 2:00 AM, when on time.
Goes westbound thru South Glacier about 11PM. Eastbound about 4 AM.
Nice scenery if you have night vision goggles.
And then on to the endless flat sagebrush all the way to and from Chicago.

#23

I liked thecomment about the mail trains making money. They did pay the bills at one time. Then it went away. So did REA. I don’t think FEDEX or UPS ship by rail at all.
I keep arguing with the family about rail being the way to go. They really just need to make it competitive with the airlines (it’s already more pleasant than driving). But I’m talking long distance. Hasn’t short distance passenger service always been a money loser? Why?

#24

<I don’t think FEDEX or UPS ship by rail at all.>

Oh yes. The hot freights are all Fed Ex and UPS trailers on flats.
See 'em all the time on the BNSF going thru here.

#25

Amazing how everyone praises the advancements in Europe and how great things are. On this day when we honor our dead that gave it all to defeat and stomp down the wars that threatened all of us between those great European nations, its seems funny that we should praise the efforts they built with our blood on the ruins. How much more of our money and youth do we have to give to prop up these parasitic societies that so many praise as being superior to the United States of America?

#26

Steve, I was really enjoying the discussion you created, until our regular’ can’t get through a post with out putting his political rant in it’ posted.

#27

Lou,
Short distance rail travel (aka local passenger service) made money or at least broke even up until about the turn of the (last) century. It was faster than horseback. More pleasant than a wagon/stagecoach trip over muddy or dusty rutted dirt roads, too. It was also subsidized somewhat by the mail car.

Then came the automobile and the bus. Profitability dropped. Nationalization during WWI didn’t help either. The planners at the USRA dropped many, many ‘redundant’ or ‘unnecessary’ services. The lack of money during the depression was the final nail in the coffin. Come WWII, when local service might have been useful, and even profitable again (at least for the duration), the RR’s had already done away with most of the equipment.

The RRs couldn’t wait to get rid of LCL (less than carload) freight service, either. Partly because all those local freight stations were costing them tax and payroll money. They gave away that traffic to trucks with both hands. Then cried when other traffic went too.

Once the mail switched to trucks (US Mail contracts were phased out from the early 50’s to about 1965 EXACTLY because the rates were getting too high), long distance passenger service became an albatross, too. The RRs couldn’t shed routes and schedules fast enough. Without Amtrak, that service would have entirely followed the locals.

So suddenly railroads had all this ‘excess capacity’ because traffic was drastically reduced. So what did they do? Try to woo more business? Nope. they shed marginal routes, scrapped out thousands of miles rail, hundreds bits of ‘unneeded’ or ‘obsolete’ infrastructure- - with total disregard of not only history, BUT possible future traffic increases.

And in many places and ways it came back not only to bite them, but the nation as a whole.

Short sighted? No shorter than most modern MBAs - Those guys that maximize this quarter’s profits at the expense of a company’s long term viability. Wall Street absolutely loves those guys. The average Joe who depends on the company for his paycheck, maybe not so much…

Dave,
Nothing exists in a vacuum. Events, societal trends and so many other things (and yes politics) are all interconnected in so many ways that may not seem obvious - or even make much sense at first glance. A small innocuous sounding change over here can (and often does) have catastrophic unintended consequences somewhere else… Meteorologists call this the “butterfly effect”. That is a fact of nature, not a “rant”. Denying the connections and parallels just because you don’t like the answer, or disagree with the philosophy is pretty short sighted, if not outright foolish.

AND need I remind you, option 1 of the original question WAS loaded to opening the discussion in the direction of my so called ‘rant’. I just filled in the dots as to why option 1 was a really lousy, and basically incorrect answer. – Even though entirely too many people believe it to be the truth.

Smart folks can hold on dearly to some pretty stupid ideas if you keep them scared them into believing the only other option is something draconian. Misdirection, obfuscation, and subterfuge are not only the heart of stage magic, but modern politics… the main difference being that the magicians admit it.

#28
Ric Golding said:
Amazing how everyone praises the advancements in Europe and how great things are. On this day when we honor our dead that gave it all to defeat and stomp down the wars that threatened all of us between those great European nations, its seems funny that we should praise the efforts they built with our blood on the ruins. How much more of our money and youth do we have to give to prop up these parasitic societies that so many praise as being superior to the United States of America?
Ric,

I don’t know if there’s any money left to give, but pragmatically speaking let us have a look at two rail systems far removed from Europe (since that seems to be a sore point). The two systems being the Japanese and the Chinese. To paraphrase the ad: They’ve come a long way, baby.

How is it usually done? One considers the rail network an essential piece of a countries infra structure, there for the “national good” with resources and support allocated accordingly. Kind of a weird concept, isn’t it? :smiley: :wink: :smiley:

#29
John Bouck said:

Yah, Steve’s other hobby is collecting padlocks. :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

As for Amtrak, I don’t care what happens to it. It comes thru here at 2:00 AM, when on time.
Goes westbound thru South Glacier about 11PM. Eastbound about 4 AM.
Nice scenery if you have night vision goggles.
And then on to the endless flat sagebrush all the way to and from Chicago.


Good one, John. :lol: :lol:

Humour on

You know in a big country like the USA they should have done less modernizing when the railways came along. Have a waystation at the end of the day, the train stays overnight and continues in the morning. Extra business for all the hotels and restaurants etc.

You’re in a hurry? Fly!

Humour off

BTW that is exactly the MO of the Rocky Mountaineer, layover at Kamloops going either way. Or in Quesnel for the Whistler to Jasper trains.

#30

Well, it’s time for me to throw in my 2 cents.

If the airlines, the trucking industry, ocean transport and the automobile had to support its’ infrastructure the way the railroads do, rail passenger service would be competitive. Of course, if that were true, travel would be prohibitively expensive.

On the other hand, if railroads received the same kind of support from gummint that the other three do, rail passenger service would still be competitive, and affordable.

#31

HJ,

On China, it is probably a way to move goods over a lot of real estate without building a highway infrastructure like ours. I’m guessing this will change for them as they have more of their population move out of poverty, have some freedoms and personal transportation. I think there was quite a bit of war destruction and they are getting a lot of our money, also.

As for Japan, tear up all the old infrastructure with war, don’t allow them to have a national defense system for 50 years, but provide it for them with our tax dollars and I would imagine anyone could be inventive moving a lot of people hanging like billy goats on the edges of volcanoes in an area smaller than what, Texas at the most? If you count the water between the islands.

#32
Ric Golding said:
... hanging like billy goats on the edges of volcanoes in an area smaller than what, Texas at the most? If you count the water between the islands.
that was the (part of the) post that hits the bull's eye!

the real question if rail transport and any other kind of public transport can prosper is hooked to just one factor: density of poor inhabitants.

we all know the interesting pics of trains in India. i don’t think, that they got the problem, that any train is so empty, that it does not pay its fuel.
that whole country is an anthill, full of persons who can move about only by train or by muscle.
china and japan belong into the same category (even if not so extreme)

on the other hand let’s look at latin america. no question, there are enough poor. - but only in the mega cities. (there one finds trams, bus lines and subways) but in between these crawling cities lie wide empty spaces. rural folk, that need to travel hours to get to the next town with more than a thousand inhabitants. there are simply no masses for mass-transport.

what is with europe? they got the same number of inhabitants on less than the half the territory of the US.
small, cramped cities, no garages near the houses and apartments. public transport finds thousands of customers within a mile of each station or stop.

and the united states? - look at the suburbs. within walking distance of any possible station or stop there live just hundreds, not thousands of possible passengers.
the same is even more accentuated in the middle of the states, in the fly-over-states.
somebody, who has to have a car or pick up, just to get to the next place, where a station would be feasable, normally does not like to park-n-ride. (not to mention your really cheap gas)

the amtrack and your whole train system will decay - less you get so poor, that you can not afford cars anymore.
.

#33

What MIK said… Glad he’s got the time to say it too. :slight_smile:

#34
Korm Kormsen said:
...........

the amtrack and your whole train system will decay - less you get so poor, that you can not afford cars anymore.
.


Korm,

Precisely my point: it will dawn on people when some of what they’re used to is no longer an option. Anybody follow which cars have been the big sellers since the bottom fell out? :wink: :slight_smile:

#35
Steve Featherkile said:
Well, it's time for me to throw in my 2 cents.

If the airlines, the trucking industry, ocean transport and the automobile had to support its’ infrastructure the way the railroads do, rail passenger service would be competitive. Of course, if that were true, travel would be prohibitively expensive.

On the other hand, if railroads received the same kind of support from gummint that the other three do, rail passenger service would still be competitive, and affordable.


I think that’s the issue in a nutshell. After WWII the US decided that Interstate Highways were needed for national defense. With the availability of good road at very low cost, freight and passengers quickly moved off the rails.

#36

My main issue with Amtrak is price. The last two times we’ve planned long trips, we tried to get a train instead of plane. This last time, round trip airfare was $327 a person. ONE WAY for 3 people, on a train, was $1400, plus another $700 for a room. We don’t mind the travel time difference, (6 hours vs 55), but the price difference is a showstopper for us.

#37

I can’t imagine what it would take for us to go to the ECLSTS without a vehicle.

Rent vehicle or hire someone to haul the “Timesaver” 50 plus miles to the train station.

Pay extra for shipping “Timesaver” to York.

Schedule for enough ahead to make sure it is there before show. Have to also pay for storage.

Pay for train tickets for Andy, Jane, Jan and myself. Allow 2 days to make sure train makes it to somewhere close on time. That’s extra motel rooms. Trip to Orbisonia for EBT exploration would have to be a car rental.

Probably an extra day is going to be required to repair damage to “Timesaver” from shipping.

Rent vehicle or hire someone to haul to Fairgrounds.

Need vehicle or bicycles to and from Hotel, Diner and Fairgrounds. Gee maybe we could go by taxi, probably $50 to $75 each trip for the four of us.

Let’s not talk about the ladies and their shopping trip and exploration.

Reverse procedure and all associated costs for return trip.

Yep, I can see this as a plan for the future. NOT!!!

Let’s take more of our tax dollars to make the USA more like Europe or any place else, I think not.

#38

My wife and I thought about taking Amtrak to Vegas one time.
They don’t go there! You take a bus from L.A.
They don’t go to many US attractions at all.
Except for a few commuter branches, which are profitable, Amtrak is a great big tax payers money pit!

Americans will not give up their vehicles until you pry their cold dead fingers from the steering wheels.
Even in our own city, they are cutting bus routes, due to lack of riders.

#39

Let’s put the Amtrak debate into a historical socio-political frame of reference using the dates Forrest provided. So what WAS going on?

1968-70: The Manson murders, race riots, Vietnam War (from the Tet Offensive to Mai Lai massacre to the invasion of Cambodia) , student protests, the Kent State shootings, Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King Jr assassinations, Woodstock, Apollo landings … The long term future viability of passenger rail was probably not a hot button issue for most of the country - or even very far up on their radar screens. So Congress punted…

1974-76: The nation’s Bicentennial, ‘stagflation’, Arab oil embargo, Watergate, 9.2% unemployment, air hijackings and the raid on Entebbe, Son of Sam, Carlos the Jackal, Helsinki Accords, Squeeky Frome, The Thrilla in Manilla, … Again, the future of rail travel not really a major priority for the public. Congress made some changes but pretty much punted again…

1978: Camp David Accords, huge teacher’s strikes, the dollar plunged against European currencies, Jim Jones, Neutron Bomb debates, beginning of Iranian revolution, 2 Popes die in just over a month… Aaaaand another half-hearted punt…

1997: Princess Diana killed, Kyoto Protocol, Heaven’s Gate suicides, Dow Jones way up - followed by a huge fall, OJ Simpson trial, the beginning of the assault on big tobacco, Bird Flu scare, Paula Jones… And it STILL wasn’t a priority, but the discussion started to turn away from actually trying to make it work to, “Who designed this screwy thing, and why do we still need it?”

2001-2003: “Summer of the Shark”, 9-11, AIDS, the invasion of Afghanistan, Enron, rolling blackouts and huge rate increases in Cali, Anthrax attacks, DC sniper, beginning of the pedophile priest scandals, Invasion of Iraq… The American people are definitely focused on other things, the momentum in Congress was now building to defund and dismantle it, when they thought of Amtrak at all…

2008: Housing and mortgage crisis and the beginning of the ‘great recession’ - need I say more?..

With all that other ‘stuff’ going on every time, it’s pretty amazing that Amtrak survived this long, isn’t it? That’s why I said it was not only an afterthought, but actually set up intended to fail from the beginning

#40

The Summer 2011 issue of Classic Trains has a nice selection of articles on what lead up to Amtrak - including the machinations in Nixon’s Washington and the squirming and winding most of the Class1 outfits performed - and how it then evolved.
The April 2011 issue of Trains features “Fast Trains”; makes for interesting reading and points up the differences in the approach to modern transportation.
I’m always amused by references/links to rants that masquerade as “News” items, but OTOH I mentioned not long ago how I approach posts on the different fora. :wink: :slight_smile: :wink: Works 95% of the time.

@ Mik,

The one reference missing is: the merger of the NYC with the PRR and the crap that followed that merger.

Need you say more? Only for those who have really short memories or really fried their brains during the 60s. :lol: :lol: