David Hill said:Actually very good if you look at the right combination of elements, which apparently some scientists do and others are loath to do. ;) :) The latter most likely don't buy into accidents. :P
If you are a scientist, or engineer which is sounds as if you may be, what are the statistical odds for the simplest protein to have occurred buy accident?
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:From: Evolution Hopes You Don't Know Chemistry: The Problem with Chirality by Charles McCombs, Ph.D.*David Hill said:Actually very good if you look at the right combination of elements, which apparently some scientists do and others are loath to do. ;) :) The latter most likely don't buy into accidents. :P
If you are a scientist, or engineer which is sounds as if you may be, what are the statistical odds for the simplest protein to have occurred buy accident?
Chirality is a chemical term that means handedness. Although two chemical molecules may appear to have the same elements and similar properties, they can still have different structures. When two molecules appear identical and their structures differ only by being mirror images of each other, those molecules are said to have chirality. Your left and right hands illustrate chirality. Your hands may appear to be identical, but in reality, they are only mirror images of each other, hence the term handedness. For this reason, chirality can exist as a right-handed or a left-handed molecule, and each individual molecule is called an optical isomer.
What is the problem of chirality? In our bodies, proteins and DNA possess a unique 3-dimensional shape, and it is because of this 3D shape that the biochemical processes within our bodies work as they do. It is chirality that provides the unique shape for proteins and DNA, and without chirality, the biochemical processes in our bodies would not do their job. In our body, every single amino acid of every protein is found with the same left-handed chirality. Although Miller and Urey formed amino acids in their experiments, all the amino acids that formed lacked chirality. It is a universally accepted fact of chemistry that chirality cannot be created in chemical molecules by a random process. When a random chemical reaction is used to prepare molecules having chirality, there is an equal opportunity to prepare the left-handed isomer as well as the right-handed isomer. It is a scientifically verifiable fact that a random chance process, which forms a chiral product, can only be a 50/50 mixture of the two optical isomers. There are no exceptions. Chirality is a property that only a few scientists would even recognize as a problem. The fact that chirality was missing in those amino acids is not just a problem to be debated, it points to a catastrophic failure that “life” cannot come from chemicals by natural processes.
Read More: http://www.icr.org/articles/view/105/281/
David,
Precisely what I mentioned: “Some others are loath to do!”, they much rather believe in some higher being who created all of it. Hmmmm…???
HJ,
Of course there are those that deny the Holocaust ever happened, man has never landed on the moon it was a Hollywood production, the CIA exploded the World Trade Center with dynamite on September 11th, etc.
We should then agree that we disagree, and go in peace. Thanks for the mental gymnastics.
Dave
Deleted
Dave Healy said:TonyWalsham said:
I didn't bring this subject up.David Whellum did.
Global warming, as a theory, doesn’t work for me. Certain aspects of it (e.g., the deleterious effects of aircraft exhaust emissions at high altitudes) are supported by enough evidence to indicate that action is imperative.I had many happy times with friends in Orange in the 70s, and have kept in touch over the years. That area is one of the prettiest parts of Australia, as much for its people as for its natural beauty.
Hi Dave,
It gets into a nasty rats-nest of interactions once you start trying to account for human caused global dimming (jet trails and atmospheric pollution), but it also goes along way to explaining why temperature increase has not been as fast as some of the models suggest. I don’t think anyone can pretend that this is not a hugely complex system.
This is right up there with rocket science, but it does work (unfortunately). It would be so much easier to argue if it was a clear cut case. Question everything. Is it repeatable experimental data or supposition? That counts for both sides!
But on a far more important note, Yes I think Orange is a great place to live and raise my wee munchkin. He can ride on the 5 1/2" live steam setup we have in town. We get halfway decent rain, and we are a good 5 deg C cooler than Sydney. And we get snow! And there is a full size live steam operator (LVR) just down the road in Cowra. We have no hobby shop as such, but that is why we have the internet.
I have been to Perth a few of times for work (my company has a big operation inland from Port Headland. Perth feels like quite a nice town, with a nice rail system, I just can’t get used to the disk brakes being on the outside of the bogie (truck).
As for your comment about Orange having pretty people, you have not seen us gold miners! The rest of the town is pretty good though!
This sidetrack has soooo much more that could be said, but this aint the place for me to do so, there are plenty of science blogs out there to cover both global warming and ID.
We are expecting a cool change and possible showers on Tuesday Wooo Hooo.
And, hey I see London is snowed in too, lets see their third rail system work with that stuff!
David,
very enjoyable reading. however, it seems that you believe that to understand evolution, one must have a smoking gun, a missing link that combines the elements of the extinct animal with the features of the present, living animal. This assumes that evolution is an overnight occurrence. when one limits eath’s history to the last six thousand years then such a short history of creation would warrant such beliefs. I do though prefer the model as presented by the facts that our own earth reveals to us. Studying the lifespan of existence of the earth by literally dating it through the ages as represented by the characters in the bible is fraught with errors. I believe that some date the prophet Abraham as being almost nine hundred years of age. The bible was written to teach religion, not science.
A person with an open mind will see by the facts laid about him that the earth is very old. Human cultures predate your creation date by hundreds of thousands of years. Evolution is the adaptation of a species to its environment. Extinction is the fate of a species that does not 'adapt' to changes. When man ventured from the African Drift region he required changes in his lifestyle to meet the challenges of climates to which he was not 'evolved' for. Man not only adapted, but evolved over the next few hundred thousand years, to the current form we have today. This evolution has many adaptations to suit individual climatic circumstances.
Human beings have appendix. These serve no function in the human body and yet share a distinct relationship to the grass eating mammals who required extra stomachs to digest their diet. Is this mere coicidence or design (hardly intelligent) or evolution. Some dinosaurs had their bodies covered in feathers. These were small cold blooded animals that retained body heat with their feathers, better enabling them to catch their prey. Their skeletel structure is identical to current day birds. Man shares 98% of his makeup with the primates. Is this coincidence or evolution. Pigs are so close to human beings in the composition of their bodies that doctors have used organs from pigs in transplant operations.
In all the millions of fossils found to date, only around thirty skeletons of T-rex have been located. No doubt there were thousands of these animals roaming the earth. Where are the rest? To say that evolution is a myth based solely on no individual skeletel remains being found to support the 'theory' is as absurd as dating the Bible by adding the ages of all the main characters in it and arriving at a start date, 6000 odd years ago. Evolution relies on change as a species adapts to its environment. If the change required, as needed by your smoking gun evidence, was so drastic then the host animal would have become extinct long before the metamorphasis would have had time to be successful. Evolution is a series of adaptations brought about by the host's environment and survival is dependent on that adaptation being successful.
Odd that someone who adds up the ages of individuals in the Bible, to arrive at the start date of creation, requires absolute proof of support (a smoking gun) when it comes to another's point of view in understanding evolution. Genesis is about religion, evolution is natural science. Let religion do its work and let the scientific world do its own investigation. Carbon 14 dating is based on the degradation of the carbon atom over time. The rate of degradation is a constant. I will put my faith in a fixed rate of degradation than on adding up the ages that the Bible said that people lived for, to reach my view of how old the world is. You want a smoking gun and yet your faith believes that a man could live for hundreds of years and you use this as the basis of Genesis. Ever thought of doing standup comedy?Geoff George said:
Side noteFor those that do not look overt his forum alot.
I have a great deal of respect for both Father Fred and HJ. I cansider them to be friends.
This is just one of those fun loving debates we have here. Its also what happends when I can’t get out and work on the trains.
Damn… I think any newbie to the site would be long gone after reading just this one thread alone!
I’m glad we really are friends around here!
Jon.
PS. It went above freezing today! Yah. But now everything is flooded. I need an Ark now!
at least no one is trying to prove the existence of trolls in this thread
Well ok then…
I guess this would be a bad time to ask for a pony?
Although I said that to my daughter many years ago, after she married she eventually got two. Both ex racehorses.
Bob McCown said:
(http://www.brainfuel.tv/wp-content/uploads/2006/03/nopony.jpg)
But I must have one! A blueberry colored pony!
TonyWalsham said:How can a pony be an ex racehorse? The heat is getting to ya' ;)
Although I said that to my daughter many years ago, after she married she eventually got two. Both ex racehorses.
Tim, the smoking gun reference is only one of many evidences against the possibility of evolution.
If naturalistic molecules-to-human-life evolution were true, multibillions of links are required to bridge modern humans with the chemicals that once existed in the hypothetical “primitive soup”. This putative soup, assumed by many scientists to have given birth to life over 3.5 billion years ago, was located in the ocean or mud puddles. Others argue that the origin of life could not have been in the sea but rather must have occurred in clay on dry land. Still others conclude that abiogenesis was more likely to have occurred in hot vents. It is widely recognized that major scientific problems exist with all naturalistic origin of life scenarios. This is made clear in the conclusions of many leading origin-of-life researchers. A major aspect of the abiogenesis question is “What is the minimum number of parts necessary for an autotrophic free living organism to live, and could these parts assemble by naturalistic means?” Research shows that at the lowest level this number is in the multimillions, producing an irreducible level of complexity that cannot be bridged by any known natural means.
READ MORE: http://www.trueorigin.org/abio.asp
Evolution… Remember the Planet of the Apes? (the original movie with Charlton Heston, not the hack job remake with Markie Mark)
Or, what’s to say we didn’t jump ship on Mars when things went bad there? Hell, transplant to a new planet and call it good. They probably told everyone to leave their Ipod’s there due to the long journey thus we had to start with stones when we got here…
Jon.
David Russell said:Wot, you never heard of polo ponies?TonyWalsham said:How can a pony be an ex racehorse? The heat is getting to ya' ;)
Although I said that to my daughter many years ago, after she married she eventually got two. Both ex racehorses.
It’s time to pray for global warming, says Flint Journal columnist John Tomlinson
by John Tomlinson | Flint Journal Columnist
Monday January 19, 2009, 4:20 AM
Flint Journal’s
John Tomlinson
Read more by him
If you’re wondering why North America is starting to resemble nuclear winter, then you missed the news.
At December’s U.N. Global Warming conference in Poznan, Poland, 650 of the world’s top climatologists stood up and said man-made global warming is a media generated myth without basis. Said climatologist Dr. David Gee, Chairman of the International Geological Congress, “For how many years must the planet cool before we begin to understand that the planet is not warming?”
I asked myself, why would such obviously smart guy say such a ridiculous thing? But it turns out he’s right.
The earth’s temperature peaked in 1998. It’s been falling ever since; it dropped dramatically in 2007 and got worse in 2008, when temperatures touched 1980 levels.
Meanwhile, the University of Illinois’ Arctic Climate Research Center released conclusive satellite photos showing that Arctic ice is back to 1979 levels. What’s more, measurements of Antarctic ice now show that its accumulation is up 5 percent since 1980.
In other words, during what was supposed to be massive global warming, the biggest chunks of ice on earth grew larger. Just as an aside, do you remember when the hole in the ozone layer was going to melt Antarctica? But don’t worry, we’re safe now, that was the nineties.
Dr. Kunihiko, Chancellor of Japan’s Institute of Science and Technology said this: “CO2 emissions make absolutely no difference one way or the other … every scientist knows this, but it doesn’t pay to say so.” Now why would a learned man say such a crazy thing?
This is where the looney left gets lost. Their mantra is atmospheric CO2 levels are escalating and this is unquestionably causing earth’s temperature rise. But ask yourself – if global temperatures are experiencing the biggest sustained drop in decades, while CO2 levels continue to rise – how can it be true?
Ironically, in spite of being shown false, we must now pray for it. Because a massive study, just released by the Russian Government, contains overwhelming evidence that earth is on the verge of another Ice Age.
Based on core samples from Russia’s Vostok Station in Antarctica, we now know earth’s atmosphere and temperature for the last 420,000 years. This evidence suggests that the 12,000 years of warmth we call the Holocene period is over.
Apparently, we’re headed into an ice age of about 100,000 years – give or take. As for CO2 levels, core samples show conclusively they follow the earth’s temperature rise, not lead it.
It turns out CO2 fluctuations follow the change in sea temperature. As water temperatures rise, oceans release additional dissolved CO2 – like opening a warm brewsky.
To think, early last year, liberals suggested we spend 45 trillion dollars and give up five million jobs to fix global warming. But there is good news: now that we don’t have to spend any of that money, we can give it all to the banks.
John Tomlinson is a local conservative columnist for The Flint Journal. He lives in the Genesee County area. You can e-mail him. Read more columns by John Tomlinson.
Thanks Dave.
Now what am I going to do with all those Carbon credits I got?
Now that global warming has been cleared up I have a few questions on the other topic that has come up in this post as to God or Time.
Could it be both? I know it said 6 days and on the 7th god to a break. Well were is it said that a day is 24 hours? Could it be that to God a day is like 700,000 years to us? Besides Adam and eve were not the first try. So, could god have done the big bang and all the rest just happend?
I have never understude why it had to be one way or the other. I belive its both and maybe even a UFO in there some were. Face it. We are not alone, just know way with how big space is.
Now. I need to get the door. there is a little green bald guy selling bibles. 
P.S. Yes father lots spelled wrong sorry.