If I may add a link to some reading material for those that have an open mind and would like to read about a disenting view from Al Gore’s.
TonyWalsham said:
If the subject had not been raised by David Whellum I could not have replied now could I? ;)Especially as I am only pointing out the Internationally accepted obvious and will continue to do so as long as I feel like doing so.
I’m all for freedom of speech =)
The words “indisputable fact” will start an argument every time…no matter what the subject.
“Accepted obvious” is almost as good to start an argument =)
Ralph
Steve,
the civilised world knows which side of the road to drive on and how to spell certain words. It may suprise you that up until the early 1800’s, Americans spelled words such as flavor and color with a ‘u’. It was decided to overhaul the American ‘English’ language and basically spell words phonetically. By the way ‘center’ is spelled CENTRE!
David,
several points. Teddy Roosevelt and the rough riders, in the late 1800’s, were part of America’s colonialisation of the world. America’s intervention into WW1 was for America’s own needs, only and not the welfare of the rest of the world. The current foreign policy is to do with as I have stated and not attributable to any attempt at colonisation, so cannot be traced back to the 19th century. One point of constitutional law is that the premise made is that the president is not lying.
If one is to believe creationism, then when Adam and Eve lived in the garden of Eden (4300 odd years ago), scientific proof already established that cultures were then existing and that when god created the earth these cultures predated the supposed creation date. Maybe you are able to explain the existence of dinosaurs, fossils, oil deposits, human remains over one million years old and rocks four billion years old. You expect credibility in events of today and yet you have beliefs that defy the imagination.Tim Brien said:
...........You expect credibility in events of today and yet you have beliefs that defy the imagination.
Now, now, it is obviously our lack of imagination which is at fault, never mind any believes.
Deleted
Tim Brien said:Tim, you just made my point for me. The language has been overhauled and updated. Get with the program.
Steve, the civilised world knows which side of the road to drive on and how to spell certain words. It may suprise you that up until the early 1800's, Americans spelled words such as flavor and color with a 'u'. It was decided to overhaul the American 'English' language and basically spell words phonetically. By the way 'center' is spelled CENTRE!
It is not my fault, nor my problem, if you continue to drive on the wrong side of the road.
Gads, what must someone think when they visit for the first time and read this drivel? 
BTW, send some of that global warming my way, please? It is bloody could (I spelled it with an unnecessary “u,” just for Tim) outside and I am almost shivering.
Tim Brien said:
Steve,If one is to believe creationism, then when Adam and Eve lived in the garden of Eden (4300 odd years ago), scientific proof already established that cultures were then existing and that when god created the earth these cultures predated the supposed creation date. Maybe you are able to explain the existence of dinosaurs, fossils, oil deposits, human remains over one million years old and rocks four billion years old. You expect credibility in events of today and yet you have beliefs that defy the imagination.</blockquote>I’m not wanting to hijack this thread and get into Creation Science versus The Theory of Evolution here, but with that said, the billions of years model will not work nor has there been any scientific proof to allow for the Earth to be that old. Just theory and speculation, actually more faith is required to believe evolution than creation.
Not one certifiable “missing link” has ever been found. No rat-bat, or horse-dog. The deeper science is able to delve into the structures that make up a living cell, the less likely it becomes mathematically that any living cell could have been formed by chance. The atom bomb in a junk-yard forming a 747 jet plane, analogy is statistically close to accurate.
The whole universe operates on physical laws of thermodynamics. The second law, entropy is that everything looses energy, devolves, slows down, shrinks, collapses in on itself if you will. The Sun is shrinking and cooling, the rotation of the Earth is slowing, mountains are eroding, etc… Nothing gains energy. Evolution would require the opposite of entropy, which does not exist in a closed system such as our universe.
All one needs to do is take the scientifically measured entropy of our universe and project it backwards to prove the Sun would have totally engulfed the Earth less than 1,000,000 years ago. But that’s alright, because 1,000,000 years ago the Earth would have been spinning so fast that objects would either be thrown off into space or crushed under the magnified gravity. These are still theories but are based on current measurements of our solar system.
We now return you to you regularly scheduled program.
Tim I agree with you completely on the issue of creationism. But wirh creationists it’s an argument you will never win, no matter how many rat bats or horse dog intermediate forms (there are plenty in the fossil record) you bring to the table as proof.
Dave Whellum said:
Whilst you are freezing over there we are having record high temperatures. the mercury is expected to be in the 40'sCelcius for six days running, this has caused many problems the transport system.http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,24975204-2682,00.html
Yesterdays temperature reached 45.7C the highest on record since 1939.
Definately no working on the garden RR in this heat, can’t wait until Monday for the “cool change” 39C.Regards
Dave
Geez,
We’ve come a long way from inocent talk about the weather =)
Ralph
David,
your second law of entropy denies one law of physics and that is energy can be never created or destroyed. If one object loses energy then that energy is taken up by another to keep the balance. If a mountain erodes then another arises. The Pacific Rim is a case in point of an area of volcanic activity. Australia is a land, worn flat by years of erosion, far more years than a creationist would allow. However, seismic and volcanic activity, throughout the world, rebuilds what time and nature destroy.
When our sun finally implodes on itself and forms a black hole, then our sun is only one of billions of suns and each are either being formed or in a state of decay. Of course it would be simple to deny the evidence around us, but blind devotion to the written word does not undo thousands of years of personal observations.
You state that no evidence of a single species of origin exists to support the theory of evolution and yet one needs to only study the fossilised remains of creatures that died millions of years ago, to see the common design in creatures of today. Evolution relies on extinction as creatures more successfully adapt themselves to their surroundings. Birds, reptiles and mammals of today, have striking charecteristics found in fossilised remains. Look to human beings that have evolved to inhabit the particular areas of the world that they do. Some are high in melanin to ward off UV rays of the equatorial regions, others have fair skin and blonde hair and inhabit the far northern regions of the continent. Dark skin is a negative trait in a cold climate as is fair skin in an equatorial region. Anthropologists would have the ancestors of man originating in the African region. Did he have light or dark skin? Fossilised remains have man migrating into Europe and across into Asia and the Americas. How does creationism explain the wide diversity in the human race? If the world was spinning at a rate faster than today, over one million years ago, then surely this is outside the timeframe that creationism allows.
The 'word of god' has the garden of eden in the region of Iraq. No one has found the remains of this couple or their only surviving son. Did they actually exist? When the evil son of Adam and Eve was cast into the wilderness, he met with dark skinned tribes. Where did they come from as God, to date, according to the Bible, had only created Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel? With Abel killed by his brother, then did Adam and Eve's children commit incest, as how else does one explain our very existence? Now what was the point of credibility that you wanted me to believe?I have been observing quietly for a while, enjoying the +100deg F temps we are having in southern Oz (that started all this)…
But along comes a statement that gets the geologist in me all wound up. Creation SCIENCE. Please call it creationism if you must. Science is the development of a hypothesis to explain observable phenomena, you design a repeatable test to prove your hypothesis wrong. If you are unable to fault your hypothesis it gets to be called a theory until you or someone else proofs it wrong or in need of a tweak.
Evolution is a scientific theory, germs causing disease is a scientific theory, Eisenstein’s Special Relativity (without which no GPS unit in the world would work) is a theory. This is science.
Intelligent Design is a non-scientific ideology. You are most welcome to it or without it. It is NOT science.
Choose to not believe in evolution if you like, it won’t kill you. Better yet, design a repeatable scientific experiment to prove it wrong. Or better yet spend the energy laying more track.
Now, as I am at work, I need to go back to looking at my 447million year old rocks (it is their birthday next week, and I should do something special for them)
And yes, we used lots of different methods to get their age (not just their drives license).
It helps to know their age accurately, or the company I work for would go broke!
Just as an aside, the junkyard 747 (it was a wind not a bomb in the original quote) is very poor statistics and betrays a total failure to understand just how evolution is said to work. The boys at Kitty hawk didn’t start with a 747 either…Little steps, there is plenty of time, and the dice have no memory.
Tony, you have my sympathy, how is the smoke from up north?
Now, I wonder if I will get my LGB Christmas cars for the last 3 years, or if production will follow the Dodo and those dinosaurs that lived round here before the flood?
Geoff.
ps it is nice and hot here, so a little flaming won’t be too bad.
I got rain last night and it might rain again tomarrow.
Its going to be lower 40’s at night and mid 60’s “F” for highs.
I guess being in the Desert is not all bad.
Deleted
Hi Geoff.
Although I live in Victoria where bushfires are raging, presently I am in Brisbane until Monday. Then starts the long drive home again.
Queensland is copping a bit each way at the moment.
About 60% 0f the state is flooded with the rest drought affected.
Tim Brien said:
David,The 'word of god' has the garden of eden in the region of Iraq. No one has found the remains of this couple or their only surviving son. Did they actually exist? When the evil son of Adam and Eve was cast into the wilderness, he met with dark skinned tribes. Where did they come from as God, to date, according to the Bible, had only created Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel? With Abel killed by his brother, then did Adam and Eve's children commit incest, as how else does one explain our very existence? Now what was the point of credibility that you wanted me to believe?</blockquote>Tim,
This is a lot like the LGB range, work out the size you want your model to be, and the gauge to run it on and then massage till it fits (who needs all those windows anyway?)
If you are happy with the result, you are happy, that is what matters. Just accept that there will be lots that aren’t happy.
The date you are after is 23rd Oct 4004BC. The earth has been VERY busy since them!Geoff.
TonyWalsham said:
Hi Geoff.Although I live in Victoria where bushfires are raging, presently I am in Brisbane until Monday. Then starts the long drive home again.
Queensland is copping a bit each way at the moment.
About 60% 0f the state is flooded with the rest drought affected.
Tony,
Cool change due through this part of the world on Tuesday, if you run down the Newel or New england Highway, Monday may well test the AC on your car.
As an aside did you see on the News the guys in Melbourne trying to fix a sun kink on the suburban network by hosing the actual kink, not the hot 500yards of rail either side that caused it?
Geoff.
Now, work, I know I am here for a reason…
Geoff, I came up the New England via Tamworth where my webmaster lives.
He is the 16 yo computer genius son of very good friends.
I spent three days with him upgrading the RCS and EVO websites.
I go home via the coast. I have a daughter living near Byron Bay and friends at Kempsey to see.
TonyWalsham said:
I didn't bring this subject up.David Whellum did.
See what you’ve done, Dave? Shame on you, talking about the weather, when you could have raised a non-controversial topic like politics, homosexuality or religion!!!
You really have to get your act together, mate.
Geoff M, thanks for your lucid interjections re creationism. How we got there from the weather in Adelaide made interesting, if sometimes alarming, reading.
Global warming, as a theory, doesn’t work for me. Certain aspects of it (e.g., the deleterious effects of aircraft exhaust emissions at high altitudes) are supported by enough evidence to indicate that action is imperative.
I had many happy times with friends in Orange in the 70s, and have kept in touch over the years. That area is one of the prettiest parts of Australia, as much for its people as for its natural beauty.
Tim Brien said:
David, your second law of entropy denies one law of physics and that is energy can be never created or destroyed. If one object loses energy then that energy is taken up by another to keep the balance. If a mountain erodes then another arises. The Pacific Rim is a case in point of an area of volcanic activity. Australia is a land, worn flat by years of erosion, far more years than a creationist would allow. However, seismic and volcanic activity, throughout the world, rebuilds what time and nature destroy.When our sun finally implodes on itself and forms a black hole, then our sun is only one of billions of suns and each are either being formed or in a state of decay. Of course it would be simple to deny the evidence around us, but blind devotion to the written word does not undo thousands of years of personal observations. You state that no evidence of a single species of origin exists to support the theory of evolution and yet one needs to only study the fossilised remains of creatures that died millions of years ago, to see the common design in creatures of today. Evolution relies on extinction as creatures more successfully adapt themselves to their surroundings. Birds, reptiles and mammals of today, have striking charecteristics found in fossilised remains. Look to human beings that have evolved to inhabit the particular areas of the world that they do. Some are high in melanin to ward off UV rays of the equatorial regions, others have fair skin and blonde hair and inhabit the far northern regions of the continent. Dark skin is a negative trait in a cold climate as is fair skin in an equatorial region. Anthropologists would have the ancestors of man originating in the African region. Did he have light or dark skin? Fossilised remains have man migrating into Europe and across into Asia and the Americas. How does creationism explain the wide diversity in the human race? If the world was spinning at a rate faster than today, over one million years ago, then surely this is outside the timeframe that creationism allows. The 'word of god' has the garden of eden in the region of Iraq. No one has found the remains of this couple or their only surviving son. Did they actually exist? When the evil son of Adam and Eve was cast into the wilderness, he met with dark skinned tribes. Where did they come from as God, to date, according to the Bible, had only created Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel? With Abel killed by his brother, then did Adam and Eve's children commit incest, as how else does one explain our very existence? Now what was the point of credibility that you wanted me to believe?</blockquote>Respectfully Tim, some of your stated “facts” are incorrect.
Entropy is when energy is lost, to another system, but the original system NEVER gains energy.
Obviously erosion may occur at least two ways, over a long period of time with normal wind and rain or over a short period of time with rapidly receding flood waters. Both conditions are observable today.
Really smart scientists that study this stuff (I can’t think of their degree title right now.) have found tens of millions of fossil remains, nearly all are very old (almost none from recent dead plants of animals. H-m-m-m?), but not one shows a transitional form such as a mammal with forelegs that are partially formed into webbed wings restricting the animal from running and still not formed sufficiently to allow for flight.
If evolution was true, the fossil record would be replete with examples of transitional forms, greater so than the “final product” since there would have to be more of them in minor stages of evolving.
Well now evolution theorists are explaining the lack of transitional forms with so called “punctuated evolution theory”. This is where a rat gives birth to a fully functioning bat. How weird is that?
There are endless numbers of adaptations of plants, humans and animals which is what you argue proves evolution. People that live in high altitudes develop larger lung capacities, in colder climates they develop an enhanced circulatory system to combat effect of below freezing temperatures. These people did not evolve, but adapted. They are still humans, and did not develop the adaptation then move to the Andes or North Pole.
We do not have any science that is able to accurately date an rock or fossil. Carbon 14 dating is not accurate and is based on a assumptions that don’t meet basic scientific proof.
http://www.icr.org/article/doesnt-carbon-dating-prove-earth-old/
Geoff Merrell said:Thanks for proving my point Geoff, the original Kitty Hawk Flyer was put together by the Intelligent Design of Wilbur and Orville.
Just as an aside, the junkyard 747 (it was a wind not a bomb in the original quote) is very poor statistics and betrays a total failure to understand just how evolution is said to work. The boys at Kitty hawk didn't start with a 747 either.
If you are a scientist, or engineer which is sounds as if you may be, what are the statistical odds for the simplest protein to have occurred buy accident?
Regardless of your belief system, God and Creation or Evolution, it is all irrelevant to the condition of one’s soul (if one even believes in such things). I just enjoy the discussion.