Large Scale Central

Origins of Large Scale scales.

General Discussion
#101

tac Foley said:

Ross Mansell said:

REF Todd’s Photo…

Great Western 1340 TROJAN:

Technical details of locomotive 1340:

Length 21ft 1 ins

Boiler pressure of 1340: 120 lbf/sq.in.,

Weight of 1340: 22.5 tons,

Wheel diameter of 1340: 3’ 0’’,

Valve gear of 1340: Stephenson slide valves,

Cylinders of 1340(diameter x stroke): 14" x 20" (O),

Tractive effort of 1340: 11110 lbf.,

Power classification of 1340: Class Unclassified

Please add that this little loco is actually standard gauge.

tac

Ottawa Valley GRS

So basically, in 1:32 scale, that spans out to 7.9" and that probably a big enough Trojan for most. Still…, how big does that rubber ruler actually go?

#102

tac Foley said:

Devon - forgive me for being old and confused, but what’s this three-rail stuff you keep coming out with?

The only three-rail stuff I’ve seen over here is either tin-plate Hornby 0 scale or- VERY exceptionally - a member of the Lionel Trains fan club showing off his layout.

tac

Ottawa Valley GRS

I might be entirely naive, well no might about it, I am totally naive. But It seems to me that the vast majority of stuff available in O scale is Lionel three rail stuff or made to be compatible with it. I do find two rail stuff but it does not seem to be the norm. Am I missing something? What two rail stuff I do find is diesel and expensive. I am looking to bash something and scratch build. Maybe I am just looking for the wrong thing. What I want to play with is a DC two rail motor block with steam era drivers that scale somewhere around 30" in 1:20.3. I find all sorts of Lionel type 3 rail stuff but little to no 2 rail stuff that would work. Another issue is that almost everything I am finding has solid metal wheels and axles which would preclude it from operating on a DC two rail system, which isn’t a problem though as i am not using track power.

So what am I missing?

#103

Ummm… Devon, I confess the same confusion as TAC. I guess he and I have stood too close to large artillery being fired, both Naval and land based, and it has rattled our cages, so to speak.

On3 does not mean 0 gauge, three rail, as I understand what you wrote, it means 0 scale, narrow gauge, three foot gauge. Just like Fn3.

#104

Steve Featherkile said:

Ummm… Devon, I confess the same confusion as TAC. I guess he and I have stood too close to large artillery being fired, both Naval and land based, and it has rattled our cages, so to speak.

On3 does not mean 0 gauge, three rail, as I understand what you wrote, it means 0 scale, narrow gauge, three foot gauge. Just like Fn3.

Steve as a former Marine 0811 155mm Howitzer cannoneer it could be my head is the one rattled. I understand what is meant by On3 meaning 0 three foot narrow gauge.

But what is the common method for power O scale trains. Is in not the Lionel three rail system? That sure seems to be what I keep finding. I have never until now even much looked at O scale so I will admit to being off my rocker. But Either I am not asking the internet for the right thing or amd not getting what I want when I search.

#105

Devon, there is a whole WORLD of 0 scale stuff out there that is NOT Lionel or Williams. Trouble is, my friend, that you live in the wrong country. Over here in Europe, standard gauge 0 scale stuff is a HUGE market, mainly costy though.

On the other paw, using 0 gauge track to represent 2 foot NG, as most of the UK’s tiny NG trains were, is not a problem. The company of PECO makes a complete range of NG 32mm gauge track with the correct wonky tie spacing to represent NG, with suitably robust-section track. Here in UK there are a good number of small companies who make locomotives that are battery powered - google IP Engineering for a start, AND not at all a wallet buster, unless, of course, you call $70 for a little 32mm gauge diesel loco expensive. I earnestly advise you to get ahold of ANY 16mm movies on Youtube and have a look for yourself - much of it translates very well into the US small-scale mining and industrial scene where the prototypes operated.

Although the really small locos are difficult to r/c, it is not impossible, with high performance batteries and miniature r/c units readily available these days. Very few, if any, given the UK climate, operates NG 32mm using track power these days, even though it is perfectly feasible - I used to do just that.

Other names have been mentioned here, although you seem to have missed out on catching them - Binnie for a start, and IP have already been mentioned. Even 0-4-0 ready-to-run chassis with rods and wheels are pretty cheap, around $65 or so, and just aching to have your custom scratch-built body stuck on top.

Get some reading in!

Semper Fi!

tac

Ottawa Valley GRS

#106

Ahh, I thought I recognized a kindred spirit. Artillery lends dignity to what otherwise would be a vulgar brawl.

There are two types of power supplies in the 0 gauge world. In 3 rail, they have used AC since its inception, over a hundred years ago.

0 scale two rail, and that includes the various ilks of narrow gauge, use DC.

On these two commandments lay all the law and the prophets.

There are minor exceptions, but I’ll save those for another day, when we can enjoy an adult beverage, and see if we’ve chewed some of the same dirt.

#107

tac Foley said:

Devon, there is a whole WORLD of 0 scale stuff out there that is NOT Lionel or Williams. Trouble is, my friend, that you live in the wrong country. Over here in Europe, standard gauge 0 scale stuff is a HUGE market, mainly costy though.

On the other paw, using 0 gauge track to represent 2 foot NG, as most of the UK’s tiny NG trains were, is not a problem. The company of PECO makes a complete range of NG 32mm gauge track with the correct wonky tie spacing to represent NG, with suitably robust-section track. Here in UK there are a good number of small companies who make locomotives that are battery powered - google IP Engineering for a start, AND not at all a wallet buster, unless, of course, you call $70 for a little 32mm gauge diesel loco expensive. I earnestly advise you to get ahold of ANY 16mm movies on Youtube and have a look for yourself - much of it translates very well into the US small-scale mining and industrial scene where the prototypes operated.

Other names have been mentioned here, although you seem to have missed out on catching them - Binnie for a start, and IP have already been mentioned. Even 0-4-0 ready to run chassis with rods and wheels are pretty cheap, and just aching to have your custom scratch-built body stuck on top.

Thanks Tac,

I honestly have missed this part of the conversation somehow. Now I was aware of the UK use of 32mm track and have already been turned onto the Peco 32mm code 200 rail with the NG look. I also found very pricy models and hence my problem. I am cheap and like to bash. But your straightening me out is encouraging. I will have to run through the list of names and see what I can find. I honestly was thinking to make a budget micro I was going to be fabing my own motor block. Which i still might do anyway.

Thanks for setting me on a better path. That’s why I ask the questions.

#108

Steve Featherkile said:

Ahh, I thought I recognized a kindred spirit. Artillery lends dignity to what otherwise would be a vulgar brawl.

There are two types of power supplies in the 0 gauge world. In 3 rail, they have used AC since its inception, over a hundred years ago.

0 scale two rail, and that includes the various ilks of narrow gauge, use DC.

On these two commandments lay all the law and the prophets.

There are minor exceptions, but I’ll save those for another day, when we can enjoy an adult beverage, and see if we’ve chewed some of the same dirt.

Sounds like a plan. I was a reservist so didn’t get around much. I am a Desert Storm vet, but in name only. My reserve unit was activated for 6 months and we made it as far as North Carolina. But I do love the smell of gun powder in the morning and lots of it. No one that hasn’t experienced it can appreciate the awesome power of a howitzer. And mine was a baby @ 155mm.

#109

Devon - the four-wheeled rod chassis I was talking about already have motors and gears installed, RTR. They are made of steel, ready-enamelled black, with the wheels set to either 32 OR 45mm - YOU set the gauge. My BIL, another member here, made a V. fine little industrial diesel with one of these chassis - prolly cost him under fifty bucks. He r/c it using a ‘ballast wagon’ with all the r/c gear in it, AND put a sound unit in it as well!

Read up on SOUNDBLASTER UK for a real surprise - a tiny little set-up with an astonishing range of downloadable sound effects, from a honky-tonk saloon to a full-on church choir, and every kind of loco sound you can imagine.

Look at THIS clip - that is the basic chassis I mentioned made into a battery-powered dismal… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eqAOyOFP-8

ALL of this is on Youtube - are you looking yet?

tac

Ottawa Valley GRS

#110

Not yet Tac but before you get to frustrated with me I had better have a look. (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-surprised.gif).

#111

WOW! what a conversation. Quite entertaining & enlightening.

I understand that the letters are entrenched as the designator for scale by the NMRA, but what I don’t understand is why there isn’t anyone pushing a better way. I still firmly believe that using the letter to denote the gauge and adding on the scale numerically afterwards is the simplest designation system for ALL gauges and scales, and every combination there-of.

Example: HO scale would become HO87… 1/87th scale equipment running on HO gauge track.

Even if it wasn’t pushed on the smaller scales, just using it in large scale would fix the issue. Let the letter denote the gauge and the ration tell the scale: LGB=G22(.5 - could be denoted either as whole numbers, or as decimals, wouldn’t really matter) Aristo & USA would be labeled G29 - MTH & Accucraft would fall in line as G32

The reason this works so well is because it helps everyone from the kid who just wants it to run, to the purist who demands only full scale fidelity. Also, for someone mixing gauges, it helps them immensely: G29 & O29 could be used to simulate the locales where standard & narrow gauges interchanged. The PRR & EBT interchange in Mt Union? The PRR & Tuscarora Valley interchange in Port Royal? How about the D&RGW interchanges with itself? the TV&C & Erie interchanges in Attica & Cuba New York?

(As a miscellaneous aside, here http://www.tramz.com/lc/y.html is a link to an article about 50cm railroads used in the Yucatan Mexico 100years ago for hemp plantations to support the world’s need for hemp rope… what scale would 45mm gauge track representing 50cm railroads be?)

Keep the discussion alive!

#112

J.D. Gallaway said:

…

(As a miscellaneous aside, here http://www.tramz.com/lc/y.html is a link to an article about 50cm railroads used in the Yucatan Mexico 100years ago for hemp plantations to support the world’s need for hemp rope… what scale would 45mm gauge track representing 50cm railroads be?)

Keep the discussion alive!

1:11.11

#113

2-rail 0 scale is alive and well. I have at least as much 2-rail as I do 3-rail postwar (HiRailed). Of course, I really like doorstops.

Try Model Train Journal. They have a 2 and 3 rail forum.

Some guys have swallowed the dcc pill, most 2-railers are conventional.

I have six feet of Marn-0-Stas to control them.

3-rail is ZW to an All-Trol.

AC, most with E-units, some (like my GM and A-N NW’s) have Dallee ACRU’s.

Dave

No howitzers, but the diameter of our tubes was bigger than any battlewagon ever had…I think.

#114

Curmudgeon mcneely said:

2-rail 0 scale is alive and well. I have at least as much 2-rail as I do 3-rail postwar (HiRailed). Of course, I really like doorstops.

Try Model Train Journal. They have a 2 and 3 rail forum.

Some guys have swallowed the dcc pill, most 2-railers are conventional.

I have six feet of Marn-0-Stas to control them.

3-rail is ZW to an All-Trol.

AC, most with E-units, some (like my GM and A-N NW’s) have Dallee ACRU’s.

Dave

No howitzers, but the diameter of our tubes was bigger than any battlewagon ever had…I think.

I am glad to hear two rail is out there. After following Tac’s advice I did look into it and as he said much of the 16mm market is live steam, The key is using 16mm or 32mm not O. Now I don’t think that is a good plan indoors. But there is electric stuff and I did find that 0-4-0 chassis. Not quite what picture in my mind but would work. Still might want to attempt my own chassis with the parts I got from Stan. But it is nice to know stuff is out there. Really after the track and block it doesn’t matter. It will all be 1:20.

#115

J.D. Gallaway said:

Even if it wasn’t pushed on the smaller scales, just using it in large scale would fix the issue. Let the letter denote the gauge and the ration tell the scale: LGB=G22(.5 - could be denoted either as whole numbers, or as decimals, wouldn’t really matter) Aristo & USA would be labeled G29 - MTH & Accucraft would fall in line as G32

I like this idea. it would make it much easier. It defines both track gauge and scale.

#116

Yes, that is a great idea, and it has been suggested for years. Since its simple, and makes sense, my bet is that it will never happen. I dunno why, but it seams that some manufactures don’t want to state the scale of their products on the box so everyone will know. But I believe that Aristo did print their scale on their boxes there at the end.

#117

LSOL (?) floated a similar proposal in the late 1990s. At the time, I was editing our club’s newsletter, and I tried to garner support for it through that and by sending my editorial to other newsletter editors with whom we shared content. I liked it then, and I like it now. And it’s about as popular now as it was then, as you can clearly see by the straightforward labeling on all of our equipment. (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-undecided.gif)

Actually, while that movement never gained a whole lot of traction, it did work towards getting more manufacturers to at least state the scale of their models (if there is one) on the box. At least it was not all in vain.

Interestingly, I was at Caboose Hobbies today, and noticed in the stacks of Piko kits they have, one of the kits was labeled for 1:32 with a green icon whereas the rest were labeled as 1:22.5 with a red one. I was actually a bit bummed, as the 1:32 kit was a neat warehouse that I could have used if it were closer to 1:20.3 Ah well, one more push to start ripping wood on the table saw.

Later,

K

#118

Kevin, I’ve recently built that warehouse to sit on a part of our portable LS track, and yes, it might look a tad small, but viewed in the ‘selective compression’ mode - much-favoured by your own good self, I recall, it fits in nicely.

tac

Ottawa Valley GRS

#119

Hans-Joerg Mueller said:

J.D. Gallaway said:

…

(As a miscellaneous aside, here http://www.tramz.com/lc/y.html is a link to an article about 50cm railroads used in the Yucatan Mexico 100years ago for hemp plantations to support the world’s need for hemp rope… what scale would 45mm gauge track representing 50cm railroads be?)

Keep the discussion alive!

1:11.11

1/9th.

tac

#120

Yeah for IP engineering! http://www.ip-engineering.co.uk/ (Check the Shelly Tram!)

they helped push me into 7/8 as well…it’s a conspiracy I tell you; Oh, and those Horrid Videos of the ‘little engines’ working the Welsh lines…

(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-tongue-out.gif)

I believe this is the sound unit Terry was referencing:

http://www.modelsounds.co.uk/blaster.html

another link of interest Devon:

http://www.eagleassist.com/hglw/Locos.html