Large Scale Central

Origins of Large Scale scales.

General Discussion
#1

OK I am sure this has been hashed out a multitude of times but I am bored at work and trying not to fall asleep and my mind is wandering. I am trying to understand what the different scales in large scale represent. I know they are all derived from the use of 45mm track gauge.

So I understand F or 1:20.3 (1:20.32) for 3’ narrow gauge. 45mm=1.771653543307087" which when divided into 36" (3 foot gauge) you get 20.32 rounded to 20.3. So I get that. I also get 1:32 which represents standard 4’ 8.5" gauge. 45mm=1.771653543307087" which when divided into 56.5 (4’ 8.5" standard gauge) you get 31.8911 rounded to 32.

so where do 7/8th (this is 2’ gauge right?), 1:22.5 and 1:29 represent and any others I missed come from?

Edit 7/8ths = 7/8" to the foot which is 1:13.714 and 2 foot gauge on 45mm track is 1:13.546 so 7/8th" to the foot is a very close approximation of 2foot guage on 45 mm track. got that one.

#2

Also what is properly referred to as G scale if anything. Where does 1:20.3 get the F designation and have any of the other scales adopted a letter designation? Are there any other off shoots such as Fn2 (1:20.3 on 32mm/O gauge track) where by an established Large scale scale went haywire and use another track gauge keeping the same scale?

#3

The NEM-Morop standards have a PDF for “what’s what” and it is graphically very easy to follow since it shows with clarity how the different gauges are used in different scales.

http://www.morop.eu/de/normes/nem010_d.pdf

Yes, it is in German, but it is so nicely arranged (KISS principle) that it is very easy to follow. (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-surprised.gif)

PS many (most) size designations have their roots in the Märklin designations which go back to the early years of the last century.

#4

Devon,

Here are seven slides from a clinic I gave a few years ago that try to explain how we got to this point. You can see the progression from the original Marklin numbered gauges back in 1891, through Lionel Standard Gauge in 1906, to LGB in 1968, and the mess we have now.

Now you should be thoroughly confused.

Bob

#5

LGB basicly put the 1:22.5 on the map with thier line of European meter gauge trains. Along the rubber gauge Mogul and other USA rolling stock. The rubber ruler was mostly so the trains would go around the R1 curves that were much more common place at that time. When Bachmann rolled out the thier 1:20.3, that scale took off like wildfire. Many folks mix and match with little reguard to scales. If it looks good together, run it. Then others model to scale as much as someone might with an indoor smaller scale railroad. Its what makes large scale so much fun. Something for every taste, even with the more limited selection available at any one time. Mike

#6

Hans-Joerg Mueller said:

The NEM-Morop standards have a PDF for “what’s what” and it is graphically very easy to follow since it shows with clarity how the different gauges are used in different scales.

http://www.morop.eu/de/normes/nem010_d.pdf

Yes, it is in German, but it is so nicely arranged (KISS principle) that it is very easy to follow. (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-surprised.gif)

PS many (most) size designations have their roots in the Märklin designations which go back to the early years of the last century.

Yea, wait, I 'll take a class for Russian to clear up the rough spots.(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-surprised.gif)(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-cool.gif)

#7

Devon, the track we use is not really 45mm, rather, it is 1.75 inches. That equates to 44.45mm, which then gets rounded up to 45mm.

As to scale, I run a narrow gauge, 1:29 scale on 1.75 inch track. (http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-tongue-out.gif)

#8

Gee Steve, so the set of gauges I made to 45mm are wrong?

Devon, 1:29 was adopted for the Wow factor (Lewis’s words) when 1:32 should have been the adopted scale for standard gauge on gauge 1 track. It’s bigger then 1:32, and bigger is always better. :wink: So that is where 1:29 came from, its an anomaly.

#9

Steve Featherkile said:

Devon, the track we use is not really 45mm, rather, it is 1.75 inches. That equates to 44.45mm, which then gets rounded up to 45mm.

As to scale, I run a narrow gauge, 1:29 scale on 1.75 inch track. (http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-tongue-out.gif)

(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-laughing.gif)(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-laughing.gif)

My model of a Swiss narrow gauge railway runs on the finest of American made track from Llagas Creek Railways and it is most assuredly 45mm track gauge i.e. the nominal is 45.00mm and the tolerance of the gauge goes up to 45.22mm

No, I don’t want to hazard a guess at what they were smoking (if anything) when they designed the injection moulds for that tie strip, but oh man, it is spot on. As I like to say: “that’s as good as it gets, no compromise!”

(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-cool.gif)(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-cool.gif)(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-cool.gif)

BTW it was that guy down near Seattle who provided the track samples to evaluate the quality and tolerance adherence. From what I hear he smokes big cigars, but that wouldn’t have influenced the mould design, would it?

(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-laughing.gif)(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-laughing.gif)

#10

Bob Hyman said:

Now you should be thoroughly confused.

Bob

No actually this slide makes perfect sense. Your presentation also shed light on Gauge #1. I assume that in those early days there were more than one gauge ie 2 and 3 and through time we abandon everything but gauge one which stuck and gives us what we have today.

#11

Mike Toney said:

LGB basicly put the 1:22.5 on the map with thier line of European meter gauge trains. Along the rubber gauge Mogul and other USA rolling stock. The rubber ruler was mostly so the trains would go around the R1 curves that were much more common place at that time. When Bachmann rolled out the thier 1:20.3, that scale took off like wildfire. Many folks mix and match with little reguard to scales. If it looks good together, run it. Then others model to scale as much as someone might with an indoor smaller scale railroad. Its what makes large scale so much fun. Something for every taste, even with the more limited selection available at any one time. Mike

Mike,

I honestly think this is what makes large scale much more fun. There is an acceptable niche for everyone. If you wan’t to do something then do it no one will worry to much about it. If you can imagine it then its possible. That didn’t exist in HO.

#12

Steve Featherkile said:

Devon, the track we use is not really 45mm, rather, it is 1.75 inches. That equates to 44.45mm, which then gets rounded up to 45mm.

As to scale, I run a narrow gauge, 1:29 scale on 1.75 inch track. (http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-tongue-out.gif)

Steve,

Your just causing trouble now. (http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-surprised.gif)

#13

Just for clarification … when #1 Gauge was first developed in 1891, it was indeed 1.75" which is 44.45mm. All of the numbered gauges were based in the English units of measurement. In 1968, when LGB developed G gauge, they were using the metric system. They rounded the original #1 gauge up to the nearest whole mm number of 45. So … G gauge is actually 45 mm, or 1.77", slightly wider than the original #1 gauge.

Bob

#14

David Maynard said:

Gee Steve, so the set of gauges I made to 45mm are wrong?

Devon, 1:29 was adopted for the Wow factor (Lewis’s words) when 1:32 should have been the adopted scale for standard gauge on gauge 1 track. It’s bigger then 1:32, and bigger is always better. :wink: So that is where 1:29 came from, its an anomaly.

Yes after Mike’s explanation 1:29 does seem to be the only anomaly in that it does not scale to a real world gauge. One thing I have not seen represented as of yet is 30" gauge like the O guys do. Is anyone modeling 1:16.9. And since we see to have people willing to hand lay 5000’ of track is anyone modeling 1:20.3 as standard gauge? Maybe a dual gauge set up?

#15

OK after reading all of the responses here I still wonder a couple of things. Is any one scale consider to be “G” I am feeling as if the answer is no? If G is all encompassing the who came up with F and why?

Also what odd ball variations are there using different track? To my knowledge Fn2 is the only one and it is like the Large Scale equivalent to big foot. The vast majority don’t recognize its existence, there is little factual info on it, and the believers are die-hards that go to great lengths to prove its existence.

For me that’s where this came from. I am considering abandoning all rational thinking and scraping all Fn3 ambitions for the scratch builders paradise of Fn2. Honestly I am thinking seriously about psychiatric intervention or a 12 step program. I have really gotten derailed on the idea of Fn2. There is something very intriguing knowing that if I want it I will have to build it from scratch.

#16

Enema Ray describes G as 1:22.5. F as 1:20.3. A is 1:29, there is an H scale, don’t remember what that is, perhaps 1:32. I don’t remember what letter was assigned to 1:24.

Now, being typical renigade large scalers, we rejected the letter designation, and stuck with the numbers. There are some enema ray types who still insist on using F to refer to 1:20.3, but even they are seeing the folly of their ways and starting to use the numbers, again.

Gauge 1 is 1.75 inches. LGB Gauge is 45mm. What is commonly used today is LGB Gauge, 45mm, but it is not Gauge 1, just as 0 scale is 1:43.5, not 1:48. Think about it, you can find all manner of cars and trucks in 1:43.5, but none in 1:48. Why, because 1:43.5 is the original, true 0 scale. H0, or half 0 is 1:87. Multiply 43.5 by 2 and what do you get? 87. QED.

Rant off.

#17

Steve,

Thanks for running down the letters/numbers thing. It really is much easier to stick to the numbers. But as a die hard 1:20.3 guy it is interesting that F seems to be the one that persists. While the majority do use the 1:20.3 more than F, when I first got started many of the MLS 1:20.3 guys were quick to point out that it is F scale. Now that I am delving into the obscure with this 1:20.3 2 foot gauge thing it makes more sense to me to refer to it as Fn2 to distinguish it from 1:20.3 3’ gauge.

Now to add insult to injury since I have almost completed a 1:20.3 3’gauge locomotive and am working on a 1:20.3 2r gauge it only stands to reason that I should build a 1:20.3 standard gauge to wound out the collection right? So that would be Fn3, Fn2, and F respectively right?

Also if we have On30 and HOn30 what about Fn30??? where will the madness end.

In all seriousness this was one of the most intriguing things I liked about Large Scale over HO and N scale. It was more of, as you put it, renegade sub culture. There were no rules. Even though it is popular it still is a haven for scratch building which I love more than actually running trains. Also no one is “wrong” for doing the obscure. In HO I ran into so many people willing to tell me what I was doing was wrong. Here everyone for the most part embraces the weird and obscure and the guy who builds stuff out of a cereal box or a solar yard light is considered innovative. Heck there is an entire cult following for a contest of who can do the most with “junk”. That would never fly in HO.

#18

Actually I find this whole “confusion” about different scale designations extremely amusing, but that’s easily explained. I follow the NEM-MOROP standards which aren’t even close to the mish-mash that can be created by a) mixing metric with imperial to arrive at a wingding scale b) fudging standards to be the best of all possible things to everyone and c) having some peculiar concepts when it comes to applying standards in a consistent manner.

BUT there’s an explanation for that, too. Being indoctrinated in the metric system from a very early age has “dreadful” consequences. (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-laughing.gif)

Night all. (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-sealed.gif)

#19

The day I worry too much about this, I shall go back to aeromodelling full time! (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-laughing.gif)

#20

I model in KS-scale (Kids Smiling). I tried the Fn3 thing for a min, sold it all off to fund Ham Radio gear (those were some pretty models too).

I kept all the ‘G’ Scale stuff (LGB, Bachmann, HLW) for the kids-they love it. Now I think I’m about ready to finally scratch that 7/8 itch!