Dave Taylor said:
I believe that the “extra” guard rail is placed before and after the normal location to keep the trucks from “Kicking” out if there was a problem going thru the points. This was usually done when there was less then best track work or less then best wheel sets running thru.
I could be wrong thou.
Kinda like a “re-railer?”. 
My guess on 3 guards vs 1. I bet 2 men can carry the short ones and they are pre-fabbed elsewhere to a standard size. There are doubles on the diverging route too.
If you look across the rails each guard has an opposing frog.
Happy Rails
John
That answer makes a lot of sense John. Hadn’t thought of the necessary man handling for installation.
Bob C.
Dave Taylor said:
I believe that the “extra” guard rail is placed before and after the normal location to keep the trucks from “Kicking” out if there was a problem going thru the points. This was usually done when there was less then best track work or less then best wheel sets running thru.
I could be wrong thou.
Dave, What you say makes sense but not sure it applies here. That photo is of the main line going into Mount union yard. EBT was know for good track work especially on the mains because they would haul the much heavier standard gauge cars on specially built narrow gauge trucks. It looks to me like the first guard rail is across from the “toad” and the next two seem to be across from their respective frogs. Which in my mind brings me back to Bob’s question why three, and not just one long one?
My GUESS is that they had a huge pile of the standard guard rails and just put in 3 instead of making up a custom piece for that switch.
Edit: Ha, John beat me to it! Great minds…
Yeah Bob, those 0-5-0 cranes really simplify the build!
Hot off the press, preliminary plans for the south end. I will reserve the right to tweak some of the angles of the legs once I piece all the plans together. This would be the optimum shape though. One compromise I made in the name of compression was to combine the Kimmel and Coles Siding in to one since I didn’t have the length for two separate sidings that would be long enough for 21 cars. I think the tracks in Robertsdale are correct and Joller too. I know there is one more spur at Joller, but I’ve left that out for now. I did leave a flat spot so I could put the switch in if I change my mind. Sorry, no structure placement on this one.
I have to ask.
You said you are doing some conpression to make it work.
Is a 21 car siding what was/is actually there??
For the sake of compression, why not make 2 10 or 11 car sidings??
Am not being critical, just asking the question…
I think it’s a great project, and since I’ve (with Ric’s help, amung others) been following, railfanning/tracing the EBT on each trip to York for the past 7 or 8 years, your project would be nice to follow…
Randy–
This sounds like a neat project I have thought to try to model little vignettes but you are doing more than that! What does the area you plan to build this in look like? It would be out of the question on my less than flat and very rocky terrain to consider such a project.
Hey Andy, I know for sure Kimmel (switch by Sidling hill tunnel) Was long enough for an engine 21 hoppers and passenger car. From what I’ve found Coles siding was the same. The straigt track between curves at that section measures 1.6 miles. Both sidings were about 1/8th mile. I thought a bout 2 short siding. Then I began thinking that if I had two trains that really were 21 cars or so,(Accucraft’s #12 lives up to it’s real prototype) one long siding could actually be used for passing. So that was the logic behind the decision, plus it save two switches! (out of hundreds 
)
Eric, Great question , and oh how I wish I knew the answer. We are set to move in the next year or two.
Out of the city to some point northeast. We are aiming for 3 to 5 acres of land. Where depends on where I can find work and a good school district for our son. After mowing a half acre that has 37 foot of elevation change in 110 feet for the last decade I’m ready for something more flat. It doesn’t all need be flat, just the parts I’ll have to mow. If the new property has a decent slope I may try to orient things so that the slope is always be hind the proper side of the track and acts as the scenery. A lot of this line is on the side of or at the base of a big hill. I’d like it to have some slope so that I can move dirt from the isle ways to the islands and not have the isles all be completely below grade. We’ll see. Just having lots of fun learning and planning what I can right now.
Well, this is interesting. So right away for a 21 car passing siding, your saying your going to have 42 large scale coal hoppers? You might just lay plans for a 21 car passing siding and have the room to expand to it. Can an EBT 12 pull 21 cars? You are definitely thinking with the same visions as AndyC. We’ve done 24 cars with a couple of diesels at AndyC’s, but it takes a tender hand on the throttle. The big difference is that little thing called brakes and weight.
I’m like AndyC, certainly interested and you get it built, we’ll probably be there to play if you’ll have us. Sounds like a dream to run on EBT trackage.
Number 12 was good for 15 loaded hoppers down the mountain from Robertsdale. The steep climb is downhill between 2 - 2.5%, but there are some stretches of uphill (around 1%) at Jordan and McMullen’s summits. Nos. 14 and 15 could pull 18 loaded hoppers, while the big mikes could do 22.
I don’t know what the Accucraft mike will pull on a grade. I know mine does 10 cars without much trouble at all on the (relatively) flat stem track at the Colorado RR museum.
Randy, do you have the .pdf versions of the EBT right-of-way maps? They’re here:
http://www.railsandtrails.com/EBT/index.html
Definitely worth the download if you haven’t yet. That’ll help you with your track planning if you’re trying to replicate what was there on the prototype. (It looks like you’ve got Robertsdale oriented backwards. The wye is on the north end of town.)
Kimmel siding is 1357’ long, and Coles is 1201’. A 22-car train with locomotive would be on the order of 700’, so there was plenty of room to spare on those sidings. That scales out to 60 - 70’ per siding. If you limit things to just long enough to pass the trains, you’re still at 35’ for each siding.
What I’m not seeing is the capacity at Robertsdale for a 22-car train. I haven’t seen a drawing for your version of Mt. Union, but if you’re looking to run trains that long, you’ll need that capacity at both ends in addition to points along the middle to pass trains.
If it were me, I’d compress the train length a bit–maybe 10 - 12 cars plus a caboose. That lessens your need for long passing sidings to pass trains (about 25’ total, which is still plenty long), but the trains are still long enough to give you the “look” of a proper EBT coal drag. That, and you’re talking about a whole lot of hoppers if you want to have a meet betwen a loaded and empty hopper train. It’s a lot more reasonable to get a fleet of 20 - 30 hoppers than it is 50 - 60, especially given that the Accucraft cars are out of production.
The other thing to think about is in terms of how you want to operate the railroad. The coal drags are great, but rather boring from an operational standpoint. They travel in one long string from point A to point B, with no switching inbetween. I’d concentrate a bit less on that aspect in terms of being totally accurate with regard to train length, and instead focus on the non-coal revenue streams (timber, agricultural, etc) and the sidings along the way which supported those industries.
I’d suggest getting in touch with Pete Clarke, the FEBT membership guy. He models in HOn3, and has regular operating sessions on his EBT. I’ve been to his operating sessions, and they’re a pretty good blend of coal drags, switching, and passenger runs. If I were contemplating a railroad such as you’re contemplating, I’d look to that kind of operational scheme as a foundation.
Later,
K
Randy,
I too am working on a EBT Garden railroad only a few miles from the EBT. I downlaoded the right-of-way maps and that have been a big help in figuring out how I am going to get the ball rolling. As of now I have 4 bachmann two bays and 10 Accucraft Hoppers which makes a nice mixed freight. My plan is to model the mines, as kevin said to get some switching action and then some mainline from Woodvalle to rockhill perhaps. It’s good to see another EBT fan getting into this great hobby. PM if you have any questions in reagrds what your trying to do and perhaps I can assist you,a s growing up the EBT was my playground (so to speak).
Ric- First off you are all welcome to come play. I’ve already warned my wife you guys would probably show up ala “Field of dreams” I hope I don’t disappoint. Good points as to breaking going down hill. I’m planning on running all R/C steam which will help, but I may have to devise a braking caboose that can be on RC too.
As to yours and Kevin’s point about how may cars and trains there will be. Firstly I do want the room for multiple operators in a session who I imagine will bring some cars along too. Then on my side I’d definitely like to build #11 one of the big Mikes and the third #2. For cars I’m mainly planning on scratching them all from brass. Equal amounts of 2 and 3 bay for 1927. I may make a set of dies to punch some of the parts in quantity. Of course the passenger fleet would be scratched from wood.
I also agree completely with Kevin on the numbers of cars that each Loco could pull. That’s all been pretty well documented. So being a wannabe engineer, I always state a case in the worst scenario. Envisioning having a big mike someday that’s where I got those numbers.
Kevin- Thanks so much for pointing me at those maps again! I looked at them once but was at work, and our bandwidth is horrible. I couldn’t make out anything on the main page and didn’t realize until looking this morning at home that I could get to the detailed maps. I’m on my way now. Thanks!
Now that I have maps I definitely have some revision to do. I see your point on having room at Robersdale as well. I was actually thinking of that too. Looks like there’s more track that I didn’t know about on the maps. My Kimmel/Coles siding is about 43’ so close to your recommendation of 35’. But the switches need to be were they are to make the immediate area look right. I can always break it in to two if I find I’m running shorter trains. I honestly don’t mind that this whole thing will take up most of an acre.
Brooks, It’s nice to “meet” you. Your operation sounds very intriguing. We will have to talk. I guess that I would like to move all the dirt for the entire vision at once. (while I have the excavator rented.) Then I may start at Roberts dale and work north as well so I can get things running as you and Kevin have suggested.
John Caughey said:
My guess on 3 guards vs 1. I bet 2 men can carry the short ones and they are pre-fabbed elsewhere to a standard size. There are doubles on the diverging route too.
If you look across the rails each guard has an opposing frog.
Happy Rails
John
John nailed the answer - they are “check” rails to stop the wheels heading the wrong way at a frog. And the are all the same size, so just use 3 instead of fabricating one long check rail. (It was done though not in Mt Union.)
What a difference some good information makes. The maps Kevin recommended are terrific. There was a lot more to Robertsdale than I thought as well as a few stops in between I didn’t know of. Yes it got a little bigger but there is so much more operation. The problem of space for cars at Robertsdale is now a non-issue. This whole thing measures 130 feet square now.
I hope you ain’t bitin off more then you can chew…
That will be a terrific layout.
Randy,
Have you heard of the concept for layout design called “Layout Design Elements” or LDE for short? It think this would help you plan, and still allow you to be flexiable enough to change once you get the property to build the layout. The concept of LDE (of Tony Koester fame) is to simply take a small section of the prototype and model it as faithfully as possible. You pick what “LDE” you want in the layout and design the layout to fit the LDE ‘scenes’ and simply connect track in between. So for you, your LDE’s are “Orbisonia, Robertsdale, Cook’s Station, etc”. Once you have figured out how much land requirements each LDE takes up, then you can place each LDE in the correct spot and in the right order, then simply connect the track between each LDE. Does this make sense? This would allow you to take the elements that you like but also allow it to form to the property that you have available. Being realistic does any property have a 130’x130’ section of space that is abosulately free of any obstructions (trees, water, etc)? I think that spending time figuring out what LDE’s you want to model and getting those exact would be more benefitial than trying to design something to fit a perfect place. The other cool thing about LDE’s is that you can build your layout in a modular fashion. This is what I’m planning on doing. So build LDE #1, get it finished, build and place LDE #2, while finishing #2, connect #1 & 2, etc. That way if for some reason it becomes too much you have vested both time and energy into building a layout that won’t ever get finished.
The other thing to think about (and I can’t tell from the drawing) is the running room between stations. If running a 10 or 20 car train, where is the head end, and tail end? Is the head end at station (or LDE #2) while the rear is still in #1?
These are some of the same problems that I am trying to think through and plan for when building my next layout. For instance I was telling you that my Redmond station is something like 50’ long. That’s fine, but now I have to figure out station #2 (Woodinville) and figure that size out. Than I can determine how much room I need between the two to allow a local (5-10 cars) to travel between the two stations without it seeming that they are right next to each other. I’m looking at each station as it’s own “LDE” and as a possible stand alone layout.
Hope this helps. What design program are you using?
Don’t worry Ken, Even if I only ever get Robertsdale done I’ll have fun.
Craig, Very god suggestion and great line of thought all the way around. I had a lot of those same thoughts as I’ve been doing this. That software sounds pretty neat but since I don’t have it, I’m just kind of doing it manually. Since I’m becoming very intimate with the line and it’s lay out I know what thing I’m willing to con tort and not to fit it all to an eventual property. For example in the latest drawing, everything before the wye would need to be pretty much as drawn. After the wye it could be “straight” in any direction. Robertsdale’s layout is in stone as it was drawn to mimic the actual curves in that area. When the time comes I’ll just combine all the drawings for the best fit. Not to hard to do in any decent cad program. Next I’ll draw the chunk that will go between my Orbisonia drawing and the last one.
There is no ‘software’ of any kind with the LDE concept. It’s just simply a way to define the thought process of replicating a prototype. If you haven’t read Tony Koesters book “Realistic Model Railroad Design” it might be work finding a used (or library) copy.
Robertsdale and Orbisonia would be good examples of two different LDE’s that can be combined together to create a larger layout. There’s a good Yahoo group called “ProtoLayouts” that might be helpful to join when you get closer to the final design stage. It’s mostly geared towards the smaller scales, but a few people (like myself) are large scale modelers. There’s also a Layout Design SIG as well. Food for thought for down the road!
My Layout and design for it was all in my head… I think it was almost 2 years, before the wife said ““OK, I need to see something on paper, so I know where we are going with this””… At that time, is when I finally put something on Paper. I never tried to do a scale drawing, and still don’t have one… The only track plan I have, is actually on a magnetic Dispatch Board, and that can be seen in the Bluestone Southern article under the ““Layout Log”” tab…
I have a basis and plan for operating my Layout, but the actual trackwork was done as it was built, to fit the terrain… My shortline on the layout is the actual Evansville Western railroad and trackage, which was part of the old L&N railline but in a compressed appearance.
As with any ““Model”” of any railroad, there is always going to be things compressed and/or left out… It’s all up to the modeler as to what they are going to actually complete. Even the best laid plans don’t always work out exactly as it was put on paper…
