TonyWalsham said:Items are worth what the open market bears. Not what some "expert" or collector states their worth at. Ralph
A friend has been trying to sell what was valued at about A$30,000 some 8 - 9 years ago and cannot. The best offer he received here in Australia was A$ 3,000 for the lot.
Hi Ralph.
I am well aware that the market rules.
Would you say that 28 TRO LGB locos, 14 of them sound equipped such as Moguls and WP&Y dismals, plus 30 pieces of mostly mint in the box rolling stock is worth just A$3,000?
TonyWalsham said:Apparently in the limited market he has explored..........yes. I'm sure if the items were listed separately and marketed worldwide on eBay, the results would be much more satisfactory.
Hi Ralph. I am well aware that the market rules. Would you say that 28 TRO LGB locos, 14 of them sound equipped such as Moguls and WP&Y dismals, plus 30 pieces of mostly mint in the box rolling stock is worth just A$3,000?
In general, I have found recent prices down about 50% from a couple of years ago. I don’t know about the
“high end” collector market, but this is what I have found in the “low end” products that I can afford.
Ralph
As is usual with bulky equipment, freight is the killer for international transactions.
That limits the potential customer base to Australia, and the Australian dealers know it.
The gentleman concerned does not need to sell for financial reasons. Rather he has moved to a smaller residence in contemplation of his impending retirement and has no space.
The items have since been withdrawn from sale and he will keep them in secure storage for now.
Double post for some reason.
All of this is realistically the only real possibility that could have come about for the little red box if looked at objectively.
When they were sought after the price was unrealistic, but since their demise the value has gone down?
And how is another manufacturer responsible for that? I get your point Tony, and agree that there are instances where a knock off will affect the company that they are creating copies from.
However that is not the case here at all.
This is in its purest from a specific group of very loyal individuals diagnosed with ‘LRBS’ that have become offended that thier loyalty now has no home. Would this loyalty not drive the price higher rather than lower if they were truly that good of a product and that collectible? Is there someone who has a walk in humidor full of unopened little red boxes waiting for their value to go through the roof?
Will Marklin have a following, or their products called knock off’s too…
Is this not the exact same ‘economic frustration’ that has happened to the american auto industry, or american made electronics?
Reality is this: those who have collected LGB feel betrayed that:
- their faux golden goose died, and
- They have discovered their golden eggs are really covered with a nice coat of spray paint.
That comment will likely cause me to get a few ‘interesting replies’, but the truth shall set you free.
This is not the fault of any single company, or even the market as a whole, it is the economic evolution process. Companies come and go, even the ones who use red boxes.
I can not weep for those who have lost money in the stock market any more than I can for those who are in little red box denial mode.
Newqida is unrelated. If they make a quality product that will suit my needs, for the right price, I will use it, and if they are taking up where LGB left off, then what is the problem?
Gotta love the use of if, as in posts prior to this.
Don, I suppose one could also use “allegedly” to cover ones backside against suit.
BTW. Märklin can never be accused of “knocking off” LGB products as they acquired the rights to the LGB name and products through a long drawn out legal process.
Now, on the other hand, New Quida…
I too cannot weep for those who lost money on a collapsing stock market. Unfortunately the stock market is nowadays just another form of legalised gambling. You bet the $$$$ and lose. Tough.
Just checked the seller’s website. Boxcars are now $35.00 USD. Several LGB variants (you know the popular collector road colours that everyone wanted but no one purchased) may be had for $35 - $40 each. The Newq’s require repainting, so why not purchase the LGB variant and repaint it? Were these not $20.00 when released.
Oil tankers are now $25.00 each. Rarely does a LGB tanker drop below $50.00, so these still represent value, ignoring the quality factor. Were $13.00 when first released in late 2008.
Twin pack gondolas are now $35.00 each pack. The original still command around $80 a pack so good value when you ignore the quality, but good basis for modification.
Coaches are without the best value, although are now $40 each, up from $35.00.
Until they are confirmed as breaching copyright laws then I still justify my purchases, although the novelty really has worn off as the dust settles. Prices these days are rising as the original brandname prices decrease. Other than the coaches, not worth the difference in price to justify buying the cheaper product line. Further releases are needed to stimulate the market, although the recent sales slump does not raise the hope that other prototypes may be copied, I mean manufactured.
Tony,
I had a lengthy argument with my intelligent brother as to why people ‘invest’ in the stock market. I call it the greed pyramid as less and less people make more and more money as they rise to the top of the pile. My brother says that people buy shares simply for the dividends payable each year and the rising/falling value is irrelevant to them. It is of cause very pertinent to all those superannuation equity/hedge funds who invest heavily in the market and ‘expect’ share values to rise, not fall.
I like the latest advertising of the funds - we take care with our investments as it is YOUR money we are investing. Pity they did not realise that fact a few years ago and we may not be in the current situation.Yes Tim, it will be quite illuminating if NQ come out with something different from what they have already produced.
Somehow I don’t think they will.
Tooling does cost an enormous amount of money. Especially if you have to pay for it, and not just “inherit” it.
TonyWalsham said:Tony,
Yes Tim, it will be quite illuminating if NQ come out with something different from what they have already produced. Somehow I don't think they will. Tooling does cost an enormous amount of money. Especially if you have to pay for it, and not just "inherit" it.
If the Gbk-v copy from Newqida came out of the same mould(s) as the LGB made in China Gbk-v … I will eat my hat!!!
Reverse engineering happens every day, becomes more simple every day and the means for the process are getting less and less expensive.
Was there any leakage, assistance and/or support from parties unknown? Who knows! 
On another topic: one of the “truly ticked-off” German guys posted some pictures of the tie strips which LGB®/Märklin supplied together with bulk length rail (for flex track). There was enough flash at every possible location where parts of the mould meet to make me wonder if they have no pride, no QC or no brains. (GRRRRRRRRRRR)
Gotcha HJ.
Gotcha as in I understand.
Right or wrong knock offs are not a new thing and this is not a new issue I work in a design office have since 1962 we were knocking off other companys when I started and are still doing it today It was done a 100 years before I started in the busness. Mostly It is about covering the market place , the high and the low and all in between. Most companys survive or not, because of missmanagement, not knock offs. We design furniture by the way. Just stateing the way it is.
I know you are talking about trains but busness is buness.
Ed
So I take from all this that somebody bought the molds from LGB rolling stock and is now producing the rolling stock, again? Where is it being sold? Is Newquida the brand name? Let’s see, the log disconnects were pretty good, the fish belly flats and the 2 bay coal hoppers. What else would be worth purchasing with all that is available on the market, today? So what is on the market for sale and where?
Ric Golding said:Ric.
So I take from all this that somebody bought the molds from LGB rolling stock and is now producing the rolling stock, again? Where is it being sold? Is Newquida the brand name? Let's see, the log disconnects were pretty good, the fish belly flats and the 2 bay coal hoppers. What else would be worth purchasing with all that is available on the market, today? So what is on the market for sale and where?
Maybe, maybe not. No one knows for sure whether or not the moulds were bought, loaned, copied, given etc etc!!!
If the current owners of the LGB name and intellectual property decide to take action we will all learn soon enough.
Tony, it seems you have made up your mind. In all of your previous posts you were cautious about the ‘if’ word, which seems to be missing now, and I have come to know you as a man who is cautious with his words.
Have you learned something about some devious plot to bring about the demise of the little red box you would like to Share?
Does this mean that HJ needs to get a fire going for that hat he is about to eat?
On a serious note, HJ seemd to me to be pretty clear that they are not the same, so where is the dilemna in producing a like product? Should a company be barred for ever more form using a red box as well?
I suspect the only action they will take is to produce limited runs of the past products as market tests, and if the numbers don’t shake out as they wish, they will drop it like a bad habit… You are right, only time will tell.
It seems like it would be pretty simple to tell. Most of the LGB molds have LGB engraved somehow in the underneath side. It seems there would be some way of telling if that area is filed off the plates or if something else is added after the fact.
So there is not a market of this stuff and these 4 pages are pure speculation?
The following theory is the personal opinion of myself I cannot prove it, it just makes a certain bizarre sense.
Now I have been musing on this issue since it blew up on GSM recently and the more I think about it the more I am convinced that NewQ ARE being produced legitimatly and the reason is that the rights to make then must have been obtained thru non other than the Richters themselves. Think about it 3 years ago right before they did the big firework, EPL was bleeding red ink, and needed cash, fast! Remember this was the same time they sold off the Family Jewels by fire saling the LGB archive collection, remember Crocs were being pissed away at $150! So they opt to sell the rights to market a cheap battery toy version of one of their oldest engines, and several cars, for X number of badly needed dollars or Renminbi’s or whatever, maybe for a fixed price, maybe even for a cut of the profits, that we may never know, or they agreed to forgo the rights as part of their manufacturing agreement, the Chinese manufacturer was granted the rights to their own version of certain items if EPL folded on any contracts, which they did when they folded.
Either way EPL folded leaving Newquida with the rights to this limited line of item. SO of course they market there own line of this limited range of items they now own. Now Kingsbridge/Marklin takes over EPL, and when later NewQ’s start showing up, Marklin sends their intrepid team of lawyers to investigate, but are shut down when NewQ produces the whatever agreement made with EPL before the insolvency regarding said items. So Marklin to this day has done nothing because they CANT do anything except complain about it and try to halt importation to their most important market, Europe, but to date these have so far only proven to be delaying tactics, as the more time goes by, the legality of these items becomes clearer in the eyes of those responsible for allowing their import.
Now all this said, whether they are a knock-off, clone, reverse engineered, rip-off, or whatever, the point is that it looks ever more likely they are here to stay, so the True Beleivers had BETTER get used to that idea, or I see a spiking of heart-attack related hospitolizations once these start showing up at more than just Hammonds, or the Brit outfit now importing them.
Personal opinion, I’m not planning to buy anything, its too large, and too European. I dont have a layout to run them on, so I’m watching all this from the sidelines, I find all the “smoke and furry” on GSM not rather surprising but amuzing in a sad pathetic sort of way. No one was screaming into the wind when Buddy L/Keystone hit the market, most (90%) of large scalers are smart enough to know the difference between the two, same here, NewQ is just another brand on the market in my eyes, I think any new brands are a good thing, and despite the Ventilators venting I think most people will know the difference between the cheap brands and the quality brands, its just alot more sour grapes about losing their Precious, and seeing other lesser makers filling the gap.
Again all this is just my own personal opinion, I cant prove it but a sure as hell wont be surprised if something similar is what actually happened.
Back to your regularly scheduled program
Ric Golding said:
It seems like it would be pretty simple to tell. Most of the LGB molds have LGB engraved somehow in the underneath side. It seems there would be some way of telling if that area is filed off the plates or if something else is added after the fact.So there is not a market of this stuff and these 4 pages are pure speculation?
Hi Ric,
You’re right it is very simple to tell, at least for those who have experience in tool and mould making.
I took apart one each of the LGB and Newqida Gbk-v (RhB boxcar) and within minutes it was as obvious as can be that the knock-offs come out of moulds that are not identical to the LGB moulds. So much for eating my hat!
The Newqida moulds produce parts that are dimensionally almost identical to the LGB parts, however look at the finish i.e. crappy milling were LGB used EDM, injection channels in different positions etc. etc. And it is those and other differences which lead to certain physical distortions on the Newqida parts.
Reverse engineering - even if you get “help” - will not result in identical parts i.e. the Newqida roof has a bow in it because of differences in the injection method.
Of course there were people who claimed the Newqida wall thickness was appreciably less, not so. I measured: LGB walls 2.73mm; Newqida 2.68mm.
There will always be people who believe that if it looks identical it must be out of the same tooling, my recommendation to them: have a very, very close look and then do some measuring.
Hi Vic,
The true-red RedBrigade members will never get used to that, it would mean being rational and that is a condition they apparently loathe.
BTW have you ever read of anyone having success against the Chinese and their knock-off policy? I haven’t, but I know of mfgs who refused to sell to the Chinese as far back as the 70s and these were not items that you pick from the store shelves.
HJ,
So is this just European rolling stock or is there a availability of the disconnects, flat cars and 2 bay hoppers?