Large Scale Central

New Bachmann Turnout and ground throw released

Track and Trestles
#61

Greg,

I have a few of the new switch throws and here is what I found. I installed two on Bachmann switches and they worked well. It worked well on an LGB switch too, but on an Aristo switch it would throw perfectly in one direction but fall short in the other no matter what length crank arm I selected. I got it to work OK by making my own throw arm from 1/16th brass rod with a V bend in it so I could increase the throw to one side without pushing the stock rail out of gauge on the other side. So far it has worked fine. HTH

#62

Thanks Joe, you understand exactly what I was trying to say, and you have experienced it.

I appreciate the feedback.

Regards, Greg

#63
Greg
 
Nothing wrong about being skeptical.  
 
You are indeed correct that you have to get the throw distance correct so that the points are firm against each stock rail without placing undue pressure in either the points or the stock rail.
 
Several other ground throws in the market such as Tenmille, Caboose Industries, and Accucraft have the concept of a fixed throw distance.  The Bachmann is only different in this regard by having 2 different throw distances.  They also come with three different length arms.
 
Most brands of turnouts have either a 4mm to 5mm  throw distance or a 7mm - 8mm  throw distance 
 
Look upon these distances as the macro adjustment.  The macro throw distance must not be less then the distance the points must move to throw the turnout.
 
The Aristocraft turnouts generally fall into either a short throw or long throw depending on the age of the turnout.  They used the same throwbar and the difference in throw distance has to do with the design of the points.  The long throw turnouts have recessed points while the short throw turnouts do not.
 
if the ground throw distance results on to much pressure on the stock rails you need to make a micro adjustment.  The size of the hole made in the throwbar is the micro adjustment.  Make the hole exactly the same as the rod means that the turnout throw distance equals the ground throw distance.  Enlarge this hole will allow the rod some freeplay with the result that the turnout throw distance is less then the ground throw distance. In practice most commercial turnouts have a large opening for the throw so there is a little slop here,
 
When properly installed the points move exactly the proper distance and have equal pressure on each stock rail.  I actually use the same technique to install electrical turnout machines to ensure that the throw of the machine is correct for the turnout being built.
 
When installing I always start with the long distance.  It is immediately clear if this distance is to long as the pressure on both stock rails will be to great.
 
I then center the the throw which may mean changing the holes slightly in either the turnout or the Bachmann ground though but must times they are ok as is.
 
Then if one side it to tight I enlarge the hole on the throwbar in the desired direction.  I have loads of Aristo turnouts of various vintages and all have worked to date with only minor adjustments to some and most with no adjustments at all.
 
I uploaded some photos of various installs with a variety of manufacturers turnouts.
 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/23959355@N05/sets/72157653644914630
 
It sounds a lot harder then it is.  It really is quite simple.
 
Stan
#64

Empirically obvious to the most casual observer, Greg. All of my Aristo switches need help to close firmly. I will be adding some of these to my layout.

#65

Joe Zullo said:

Greg,

I have a few of the new switch throws and here is what I found. I installed two on Bachmann switches and they worked well. It worked well on an LGB switch too, but on an Aristo switch it would throw perfectly in one direction but fall short in the other no matter what length crank arm I selected. I got it to work OK by making my own throw arm from 1/16th brass rod with a V bend in it so I could increase the throw to one side without pushing the stock rail out of gauge on the other side. So far it has worked fine. HTH

Joe

Could you post a photo of the install. Also what throw distance did you use. Am curious as to why you had a problem.

Stan

#66

Stan, for those of us who are cheap bast ... frugal, and build our own turnouts, we're not going to have a standard throw distance.  Adding a spring (read piano wire with a V bent into it as part of the throwbar) serves to help with point closure.  Set the throwbar so the points are not touching either stock rail, and the spring is neither in tension or compression, and once closed, the spring gently pushes or pulls the points against the stock rail.

  I think there's is a photo or two of this on the OVGRS site.

#67

Stan Ames said:

Joe Zullo said:

Greg,

I have a few of the new switch throws and here is what I found. I installed two on Bachmann switches and they worked well. It worked well on an LGB switch too, but on an Aristo switch it would throw perfectly in one direction but fall short in the other no matter what length crank arm I selected. I got it to work OK by making my own throw arm from 1/16th brass rod with a V bend in it so I could increase the throw to one side without pushing the stock rail out of gauge on the other side. So far it has worked fine. HTH

Joe

Could you post a photo of the install. Also what throw distance did you use. Am curious as to why you had a problem.

Stan

Here you go Stan…

#68

Stan,

I couldn’t tell you “why” I had a problem, but I tried both throws (I believe I finally had to use long) and set the gear off one tooth. It got good throw pulling, but too much pushing the points, until I replaced the rod with the one you see. Now the V bend flexes just enough to make the throw firm on that side but not push the stock rail over too much. I recall that when it had too much throw on that side the operating lever would not stay seated. It popped up to relieve the pressure.

#69

Yup, that’s it. Here’s a photo stolen fair and square from the OVGRS.org site.

#70

Joe Zullo said:

Stan,

I couldn’t tell you “why” I had a problem, but I tried both throws (I believe I finally had to use long) and set the gear off one tooth. It got good throw pulling, but too much pushing the points, until I replaced the rod with the one you see. Now the V bend flexes just enough to make the throw firm on that side but not push the stock rail over too much. I recall that when it had too much throw on that side the operating lever would not stay seated. It popped up to relieve the pressure.

Joe

Thanks a lot for the photo. Looks like an older Aristo R1 turnout. Am I correct?

I have found a few Aristo turnouts that were to tight on each end. For those I enlarged the hole in the throwbar a little. On others I had trains picking points so I filed the stock rail a little so the point were recessed.

Of course your method works great as well.

Stan

#71

Thanks Steve and Joe, the point I was making, and you guys confirmed, is you need a bit of “spring” in the system somewhere, and I did especially concentrate on the Aristo turnouts.

Stan, your theory about drilling a small hole and then enlarging it is good, it does depend on 2 things:

  1. That you have more than the needed total throw

  2. You can drill a small hole in the throwbar and enlarge it one one end or the other to “reduce” the travel.

Great idea, does not work on Aristo. The end of the throwbar already has an ENORMOUS oval hole, and the plastic is very thin and fragile there, and to put the icing on the cake, there is no UV protection on that part.

But the idea is very good, and if someone makes replacement throwbars, with no hole drilled, and I got them and then I spent the time manually drilling the appropriate slot, it could work.

Of course as things wear, you now have an issue that could cause you to re-drill or need another thowbar.

A simpler solution is shown by Joe and Steve, i.e. the “spring” that I have been talking about the entire time.

(My solution is an “infinite spring”, provided by a very long throw pneumatic motor that basically has constant spring tension no matter what the position. So I always have “enough” travel and the “right” pressure.)

So, this is all I was saying, that a throw mechanism with “absolute” position with no “give” means no overtravel, which means the throw has to be exact, and it’s not really reliable and a low maintenance solution, and takes more “tweaking” to install.

Thanks all, I’ve made my point clear to all who will listen, it has been validated by actual installations. I’ve done my best to communicate, and will bow out here, in case people start thinking this is turning into some kind of personal thing.

Regards, Greg

#72

I’ve replaced all the throwbars on my Aristo turnouts with a brass strip. Of course, that means no track power, but then I’m a member of The Deadrail Society.

#73

I had the same issue as Joe but I think my Aristo Switches are the older ones. Im going to try Joes idea with the v bend. I really like these switch stands. When Im not using the railroad or during the winter I can remove those flag posts (whatever you call them).

#74

Joe

Hate to bother you ( Ha not really (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)! )

Could you kindly post a pic of this V in a profile view? V

I want to see how it looks in reference to the height of the rails ( will the rotary clear it ? )

Thanks

Sean

#75

Shawn,

The Aristo switch I had trouble with is a VERY old one, purchased second hand. As Stan mentioned, the points are not recessed into the stock rails.

#76

Greg Elmassian said:

Stan, your theory about drilling a small hole and then enlarging it is good, it does depend on 2 things:

  1. That you have more than the needed total throw

  2. You can drill a small hole in the throwbar and enlarge it one one end or the other to “reduce” the travel.

Great idea, does not work on Aristo. The end of the throwbar already has an ENORMOUS oval hole, and the plastic is very thin and fragile there, and to put the icing on the cake, there is no UV protection on that part.

Regards, Greg

Greg

You are indeed correct the fixed throw distance needs to be as long or longer then the turnout throw distance. (see previous message on how to install)

On 2 you are also correct that this does not work if you try to enlarge the short thin outside end of an Aristo throwbar. On the few I had to enlarge slightly I enlarged the thick inside end just a tad.

I have had a lot of these not well designed throwbars break that have the stock Aristo sprung turnout throw. None have broken yet using the Bachmann throw but in time the throwbar on any Aristo turnout will indeed fail and need to be replaced

And yes using a bent arm does indeed work very well but in my opinion does not look that great. I prefer the straight look.

When using LGB or Piko electrical machines you also have to ensure that the throw distance matches especially if you use the older LGB DPDT electrical contact addition. (been there done that)

When it comes time to replace the throwbar and for all the turnouts I build I always match the throwbar distance to the machine chosen for the turnout. I do this by installing the outside point first then the machine and finally drilling the hole in the throwbar for the inside point.

And once installed I have never had to go back for maintenance later. If you install a machine with a fixed throw correctly it works well for the life of the turnout. The few I have with a bent throw for a spring have later needed adjustments to the spring.

The above from installing a whole lot of turnouts over a very long time.

But like all things in Large Scale there are a wide variety of excelllent ways to accomplish the same task.

Stan

#77

I guess that’s why its called a hobby, right, Stan?

#78

It is great to see the conversations, and sharing of thoughts on switch throws. It is also great to see a new source for a switch throw.

What I have always seen as a need in any throw, is a spring addition to any throw “Machine”. The conversation seems to have taken that path.

From experience in HO, when setting up a hand throw, we always put the hand throw in the centre position, along with the point rails, and fastened the throw at that location, thus giving equal throw in both directions. Adding the “Spring action” compensated for any unequal throw in either direction, and “Easily” kept a safe tension on the point rails against the stock rails.

I guess I can safely take credit for developing the original “Barrel Bolt” switch handthrows. First with the built-in coil springs, and then the later, “Easier-to-make” model with the simple screw-in-th-end/washer concept with the “V” spring/rod to the throw bar.

Lately, we have been using just a flat “L” bracket, with a fulcrum hole drilled in the corner, for a simple CHEAP hand throw. This is so simple and cheap, that it is VERY hard to resist, but has its faults too…!! It needs constant adjustments to keep a steady tension on the throw bar.

I guess to sum up my involvement in throw "Machines; I have to say that anyone with m,ore than a dozen switches, and is the “Average” outdoor model railroader…we don’t care to spend more than several dollars or less on any hand throw.

Fred Mills

#79

Sean McGillicuddy said:

Joe

Hate to bother you ( Ha not really (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)! )

Could you kindly post a pic of this V in a profile view? V

I want to see how it looks in reference to the height of the rails ( will the rotary clear it ? )

Thanks

Sean

#80

Cool!

It looks to be a shy lower that the rails… or is it the same height?

Thanks Joe!