Thanks guys for the clarifications. All good info for would be users.
For my part I await the larger size and of course stock in the UK.
Joe Zullo said:
I got mine from Trainworld. Wholesaletrains also had them. I think they are both out of their first shipment already.
I like them. Like Andy, I am not using the targets. I have a ground level RR and I use a hooked stick (a golf club shaft with a piece of metal added to the bottom) to work my switches. The targets get in the way. I used them on Aristo, LGB, and Bachmann switches. On only one LGB switch, I had to make a throw rod since I could not find a combination of rods and crank positions that adequately worked for that switch. They are positive throws and negate any spring action the previous switch machine had. So far I like them. They clear all my engines and rolling stock. They also look more prototypical than any of my previous switch machines. JMHO (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-cool.gif)
Thanks, Joe, and all y’all. Looks like I’ll be joining the ranks of the latecomers. That’s me, part of the 10% that doesn’t get the word. (http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-undecided.gif)
Robbie Hanson said:
I just used a few for the past two days on Andy’s layout.
They appear to be okay – but as they have no built in spring you have to do a bit of modification to attach them to Aristo turnouts.
I like the feel and look of them – very solid. Andy wasn’t using the targets so I really can’t comment on their durability or anything but the stand mechanism itself looks pretty good.
The real advantage of the Bachmann design is the fact it does not have a spring. Outdoors as dirt gets into the turnout a positive throw is a great advantage.
The prototype has two adjustments in them. The distance of the throw is adjusted by making adjusting the length of the arm away from the center. The longer the arm the more the throw distance. You can also adjust the center by either where it is placed on the tie when first installed or moving the gear one notch.
The Bachmann ground throw has two throw distances. It is shipped with the long distance which is the most common. By rotating the lever inside the machine you can get the short distance. You can also adjust the center of the throw by either adjusting how the machine attaches to the turnout ties or by moving the gear one notch.
Aristocraft turnouts have a variety of throw distances over the years. Even the same model turnout has multiple throw distances depending on when it was manufactured. As they improved their points, the throw distances increased.
For the older Aristocraft turnouts use the short distance. For the newer ones the long distance is best.
They work best if the throw is centered so that equal pressure is applied at the endpoints of the throw. This may involve enlarging the hole in the tie.
Hope that helps.
Stan
Stan,
I did not think of moving the gear mesh 1 tooth. That probably would have done it for me, but since I made a rod with a V bend in it, I’ll stay with that since it is working OK. Thanks for the tip though. I intend to get more of them when they again become available.
I wonder, as the throw has no spring and the impression I get is of a very positive action throw, how this might affect a train passing through a misaligned switch i.e. a train traveling along the main, towards the throw, with the switch set for the divergence (and vice versa) thus against the trains direction of travel?
With sprung throws most cars, in my experience, will pass through the switch even if it is set against the trains direction - just very lightweight cars usually derailing.
Alan Lott said:
I wonder, as the throw has no spring and the impression I get is of a very positive action throw, how this might affect a train passing through a misaligned switch i.e. a train traveling along the main, towards the throw, with the switch set for the divergence (and vice versa) thus against the trains direction of travel?
With sprung throws most cars, in my experience, will pass through the switch even if it is set against the trains direction - just very lightweight cars usually derailing.
Alan
They work like the prototype. Go the wrong way through a turnout and you will derail.
Stan
Alan Lott said:
I wonder, as the throw has no spring and the impression I get is of a very positive action throw, how this might affect a train passing through a misaligned switch i.e. a train traveling along the main, towards the throw, with the switch set for the divergence (and vice versa) thus against the trains direction of travel?
With sprung throws most cars, in my experience, will pass through the switch even if it is set against the trains direction - just very lightweight cars usually derailing.
Alan,
That scenario is a definite “TRAIN WRECK”.
Thanks Stan and Joe, I had thought that might be the case. I have to admit the few derailments I have had over the years were usually due to incorrectly set switches. If I get to fitting these throws I must find some way of avoiding a wreck - not easy as years advance! (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-surprised.gif)
I bought the new Bachmann ground throw from Robbie when I was at Andy’s. I want to test it on the OVGRS club railway. With many different people operating on our railway each Saturday, we have always had a problem finding throws that would stand up to our climate and constant use.
At Andy’s we found that the long throw option did not work with an Aristo-Craft switch. So when I installed mine I used the short throw option. There was a very, very small gap between the rail and points on one side only. So far the switch throw has been trouble free. If problems do occur, I will try Stan’s suggestion of enlarging the mounting holes to adjust the centering.
The one thing we did notice was that the throw is designed to be set 90 degrees to the track. As our track is set on pressure treated lumber, we often use an L bracket between our barrel bolt throws and the switch throw bar so the switch throw can parallel the track. If the new throw proves to be reliable I am sure we will find a way to use it this way.
Paul Norton said:
At Andy’s we found that the long throw option did not work with an Aristo-Craft switch. So when I installed mine I used the short throw option. There was a very, very small gap between the rail and points on one side only. So far the switch throw has been trouble free. If problems do occur, I will try Stan’s suggestion of enlarging the mounting holes to adjust the centering .
Paul
Most interested in what you find.
There are a variety of Aristocraft turnout designs. Depending on the age of the turnout and the model either the long or short throw is appropriate.
The earlier ones all appear to use the short throw distance. Over time Aristocraft improved their points and in doing so the throw distance increased.
The latest versions of the SS turnouts use the long distance throw.
Hope that helps
Stan
Alan Lott said:
Thanks Stan and Joe, I had thought that might be the case. I have to admit the few derailments I have had over the years were usually due to incorrectly set switches. If I get to fitting these throws I must find some way of avoiding a wreck - not easy as years advance! (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-surprised.gif)
Alan: Your post reminded me of when I first learned to type; I struggled to get into the habit of typing a space after each word. I worked on this until it became automatic. I suggest that you try making it a habit to set your switches for the main - that should be the straight track - after every use of the switch. Works for me.
Cheers…
John, yes I try to remember to line the switches for the main on the club layout, but sometimes I forget. Thing is, many of the other operators don’t even try. Fortunately I run a PC train, slow, and a climax, very slow.
Actually very few derailments occur due to incorrectly set switches with my Aristo stock but some of the lighter weight Bachmann 1:22.5 can derail. Usually, as all stock, except static exhibit models, have metal wheels, will cars push through the switch or take an incorrect route.
However, believing that trains should be watched as closely as babies, an incorrect road is soon corrected.
David Maynard said:
John, yes I try to remember to line the switches for the main on the club layout, but sometimes I forget. Thing is, many of the other operators don’t even try. Fortunately I run a PC train, slow, and a climax, very slow.
I stole an idea from TOC (Dave Goodsen), where he painted a white dot on the switch stand for mainline, and then painted a similar dot on the switch lever. so that after going through the turnout, one is left with the glaring reminder to line the turnout for mainline. White to white. It seems to work, more often than not.
Good idea Steve, but surely as an old sea dog it would be more correct red to red or green to green. (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)
Red, Right, Returning, except in France and former French Colonies, then it is Led, Left, Leturning. Those Frogs can screw up anything. (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-surprised.gif)
Has anyone retro’d one of these to an LGB switch? I have a bunch of R1s on the indoor layout and I’m unhappy with the standard LGB manual mechanism, these would be very tempting
I’m not sure I agree with the “positive throw” idea (meaning without a spring) outdoors.
The first thing is to get the throw exactly right so it throws the right amount. As Stan pointed out, not all switches are the same, and I will go further, no two switches I have (all Aristo) are EXACTLY the same.
Having a fixed travel with no “overtravel” would not work for me, I don’t want maintenance, and I need a mechanism with “overtravel”.
Also, some form of “spring” (which in my case is a spring in one direction and air pressure in the other) gives me enough pressure to overcome friction and possibly small grit, but I certainly don’t want a completely positive mechanism which would attempt to crush a rock with no “give”, because I could wind up damaging the stock rails or points.
I’m not knocking this switch stand, but it seems to me you need some “give” and “overtravel” without damaging the switch with “positive” motion.
Greg
Greg
I had some of the same concerns initially but in practice it turns out not to be an issue. I must admit when I helped Bachmann out on this I had from the onset our layout in mind as I needed a good ground throw.
My operators love them. Their only complaint is that they want me to install a lot more.
I spent the evening in Lowell switching between operating 966 and playing Brakeman/Conductor. On the prototype we have spring turnouts but when you want to go in the other direction you have to throw the switch manually and in practice the points will not throw properly if there is ballast in the points until you clean it out.
Our Garden railway is floating in a gravel roadbed in the woods and more often then not there is ballast or pine needles, leaves you name it in the points which prevent them from being thrown.
Most sprung designed turnout mechanisms simply do not have enough force to move the points after being outside for a time.
After testing the Bachmann ground throw on multiple designs of turnouts I found it was very easy to adjust the screw holes slightly to fit all of the turnouts tested.
After being outside for 2 years my experience is that it is easy for the operator to immediately tell if there is gravel in the points simply by the resistance in the throw. And much like the prototype if it does not throw, you need to clean the space between the points and the stock rail, My experience is that the result is less long term maintenance in the turnouts then with previous types of ground throws tried that had overtravel likely because it is now much easier to tell that you have a problem.
They clearly are not designed for those locations where you want a sprung turnout but other then that they seem to work very well.
Stan
Thanks for the reply Stan.
I think perhaps you are confusing two “uses” of the term “sprung” turnout.
A turnout with a spring that holds the points in a particular position BUT allows a train to “run against” the switch without derailing is indeed what most people call “sprung”.
I was not talking about this at all. What I was saying is some spring force allows the turnout to be thrown somewhat “past” the point where the points will contact the stock rail, thus ensuring closure. The throw mechanisms I use have this amount of force.
With a “positive throw” (the terminology used on this topic), if the throw is not EXACTLY correct, then the points will fall short of the stock rail or will not allow the throw to “complete”.
Since the throw is not adjustable, except for 2 positions (apparently) then this really puts an extra requirement on the installation.
Perhaps this can be done easily, but your own comment states that the Aristo turnouts vary, so how does this work so that all the different “throw” turnouts work with these fixed “outputs”?
Is there enough “give” in the stock rails to absorb overtravel? Or conversely, do your trains run fine even if there is a gap between the points and the stock rail?
In my experience, neither of the above is acceptable to me. So, I’d love to see pictures of maybe 5 different turnouts that all “align” perfectly.
I’m just skeptical until what I read or see makes sense I guess.
Regards, Greg