Joe Zullo said:
Gary Armitstead said: BTW, the cradle Dan made for me was a custom length…26 inches. I believe the photo above is shorter than mine.
Gary,
I got an email from Dan today that gave the dimensions of his cradles…
“The cradle base is 16” x 24". The cradle is 26" long." (https://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-smile.gif)
Thanks Joe. I purchased mine from Dan a long time ago. Just plain forgot what I ordered at the time :).
Mine has a 21" cradle.
Greg Elmassian said:
Todd Brody said:
Personally, I think they would work better, and do less parts damage, if the “V” was “deeper,” as opposed to 90 degrees. This would allow more room for center-mounted detail (e.g., horns, stacks, bells, etc.) to fit into rather than put pressure on them.
Hmm, not sure I agree with the total picture. Clearly a deeper groove would leave clearance for center mounted detail, no question.
But now instead of giving even pressure across the sides and top, depending on how you put the loco in, you would be putting all the compressive force on the top edges of a loco.
So a hood unit like an F3, F7, FA, E8 would get the pressure on the top sides… but it would not be stable, the loco would want to go flat against one of the sides… so in this case I think the 90 degrees is superior.
Now look at something like a geep… because of the body being much narrower than the cab, you would put the force on the cab, and break off window visors. Also since the cab was supporting the loco, the ends could move up and down like a teeter totter, so working on motor blocks would be not nice, and a long hood would squeeze down into the “V” and probably bend the handrails… so in this case I think the 90 degrees is superior.
Now consider a steam loco… definitely a lot of detail on the top to be broken, in my case I hang that part out over the end of the cradle, a “V” shape would probably be advantageous here, as long as you did not bend railings along the boiler top. Again the cab could be an issue, but it is in either case… here I would give the vote to your “V” shape.
So, I guess no best solution… maybe make a cradle with a variable angle?
Greg
Deeper V protects the horns of “F” units and stacks on NW units and would be plenty stable. Either way, you are only on a small area of the roof and the engine rocks to a side it pushed.
Existing 90 degree angle already breaks the Geeps details.
Hmm… I agree about deeper V protecting details, already agreed to
plenty stable? I don’t see that and you have not presented any argument that gives it weight, in fact you state that the loco rocks to the side when pushed.
I have several GP7, RS-3. etc. and no details damaged, but like I showed deep foam and a modicum of care.
I’m unwavered in my convictions, and I see your are too, so in the absence of more compelling facts/arguments let’s leave it as it is.
Greg
Joe Zullo said:
Gary Armitstead said: BTW, the cradle Dan made for me was a custom length…26 inches. I believe the photo above is shorter than mine.
Gary,
I got an email from Dan today that gave the dimensions of his cradles…
“The cradle base is 16” x 24". The cradle is 26" long." (https://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-smile.gif)
You are lucky. I keep asking where I send the check and all I get is silence. I’ve emailed Dan at both addresses and posted requests here. (https://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-cry.gif)
Any suggestions how I get in touch with Dan?
Greg Elmassian said:
Hmm… I agree about deeper V protecting details, already agreed to
plenty stable? I don’t see that and you have not presented any argument that gives it weight, in fact you state that the loco rocks to the side when pushed.
Greg
Yes, mine rocks to the side and is 90 degrees just like those pictured so I don’t see that a steeper angle would be any worse. Mine came with 1/2" thick foam.
I think the best way would be to actually have the bottom of the “V” cut off or two adjustable pieces (angle and depth) to create the truncated “V” so the detail could hang in the air.
Yes, as I suggested in the first post in this thread:
Adjustable… I have copied the picture here since not everyone has read the thread from the beginning.
I think you mentioned that you have the facilities to laser cut?? This one is mostly for HO scale… wonder if it is patented? (https://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)
Greg Elmassian said:
Yes, as I suggested in the first post in this thread:
Adjustable… I have copied the picture here since not everyone has read the thread from the beginning.
I think you mentioned that you have the facilities to laser cut?? This one is mostly for HO scale… wonder if it is patented? (https://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)
When I first started reading this thread, I noticed that HO cradle. You know, I could start drawing this up in MasterCam using available gear sets from McMaster-Carr and see just how big this would be for “G”. I doubt if something like this could be priced LOW enough that LS model Railroaders would be willing to shell out big bucks for one of these. Greg, want to try it? Let me know. Have to find out who owns the rights to this thing first. Could be a beautiful machinist job in billet aluminum stock :).
Greg Elmassian said:
I think you mentioned that you have the facilities to laser cut?? (https://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)
Yes, and could do it out of either 3/8" acrylic or plywood. That would not be the way I would design it though.
I would keep it simple like the basic design except that:
The angle of the “V” (currently 90 degrees) of the two “side boards” would be adjustable from flat to ~45 degree, and
The “side boards” could slide along the angle to bring them together or space them apart as desired, and
The “V” could also sit at an adjustable angle to face the modeler, as the current version does.
That would be far simpler and cover most all cases.
Problem is that, as Gary said, few would shell out the coin to make it worthwhile costwise (especially acrylic) and I would probably just end up with one for myself.
Todd Brody said:
Greg Elmassian said:
I think you mentioned that you have the facilities to laser cut?? (https://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)
Yes, and could do it out of either 3/8" acrylic or plywood. That would not be the way I would design it though.
I would keep it simple like the basic design except that:
The angle of the “V” (currently 90 degrees) of the two “side boards” would be adjustable from flat to ~45 degree, and
The “side boards” could slide along the angle to bring them together or space them apart as desired, and
The “V” could also sit at an adjustable angle to face the modeler, as the current version does.
That would be far simpler and cover most all cases.
Problem is that, as Gary said, few would shell out the coin to make it worthwhile costwise (especially acrylic) and I would probably just end up with one for myself.
Todd,
If you went with the design that Greg has shown…there is NO “Vee”. Looks like three elements forming a “molded band” around the locomotive body. Three adjustable supports to custom fit the sides and top of the engine. I just checked a number of “gear houses” and plastic sprockets are available from McMaster-Carr that could be “adjusted” or machined to use as a cradle. Some are around 10 inches in diameter for around 60 dollars each.
Gary Armitstead said:
If you went with the design that Greg has shown…there is NO “Vee”. Looks like three elements forming a “molded band” around the locomotive body. Three adjustable supports to custom fit the sides and top of the engine. I just checked a number of “gear houses” and plastic sprockets are available from McMaster-Carr that could be “adjusted” or machined to use as a cradle. Some are around 10 inches in diameter for around 60 dollars each.
I like the idea of it being able to lie flat to provide a big foam surface for working on the side of a box car or such. Using both sides of the V allows twice the surface area without the other side of the V being in the way.
If you tried to use those “side clamps” on something like an Geep/NW/steam engine/etc., you would probably break the railings at some point. Consider the weight difference between H0 and large scale when trying to set engine into the jig.
If the V folded up to its limits (i.e., until the sides came together), you could use is as an inverted paint stand/work on undercarrage on longer cars by removing their roofs, inverting, and putting the V within.
The whole thing would have to retail for <$50 to have a market.
Todd:
The 4 pieces lying in the foreground of the picture already give you an adjustable “V” or any angle you want. Use them instead of the ones in use in the picture.
The length is indeed already adjustable, the rectangular shaft between the 2 uprights allows that as it slides in the yellow things that turn the geared arms and have finger notches
You can take the side “arms” and put high density foam on them, and cut notches to clear railings… pull off the foam and add more when you change locos, this is the self adhesive foam for weatherstripping you find in home despot, they have closed cell black neoprene.
Very doable… if you are not interested in trying, let me know, I’ll find someone with a laser cutter… 1/4" abs will work.
Greg
Greg Elmassian said:
Todd:
Very doable… if you are not interested in trying, let me know, I’ll find someone with a laser cutter… 1/4" abs will work.
Greg
Not interested.
By all means, find someone with a laser who will/can cut ABS. (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)
WARNING: Because many plastics are dangerous to cut, it is important to know what kind you are planning to use. Make has a How-To for identifying unknown plastics with a simple process.
| Material | DANGER! | Cause/Consequence |
|---|---|---|
| PVC (Poly Vinyl Chloride)/vinyl/pleather/artificial leather | Emits chlorine gas when cut! | Don’t ever cut this material as it will ruin the optics, causes the metal of the machine to corrode as chlorine is released and ruins the motion control system. |
| Thick ( >1mm ) Polycarbonate/Lexan | Cuts very poorly, discolors, catches fire | Polycarbonate is often found as flat, sheet material. The window of the laser cutter is made of Polycarbonate because polycarbonate strongly absorbs infrared radiation! This is the frequency of light the laser cutter uses to cut materials, so it is very ineffective at cutting polycarbonate. Polycarbonate is a poor choice for laser cutting. It creates long stringy clouds of soot that float up, ruin the optics and mess up the machine. |
| ABS | Melts / Cyanide | ABS does not cut well in a laser cutter. It tends to melt rather than vaporize, and has a higher chance of catching on fire and leaving behind melted gooey deposits on the vector cutting grid. It also does not engrave well (again, tends to melt). Cutting ABS plastic emits hydrogen cyanide, which is unsafe at any concentration. |
| HDPE/milk bottle plastic | Catches fire and melts | It melts. It gets gooey. It catches fire. Don’t use it. |
| PolyStyrene Foam | Catches fire | It catches fire quickly, burns rapidly, it melts, and only thin pieces cut. This is the #1 material that causes laser fires!!! |
| PolyPropylene Foam | Catches fire | Like PolyStyrene, it melts, catches fire, and the melted drops continue to burn and turn into rock-hard drips and pebbles. |
| Epoxy | burn / smoke | Epoxy is an aliphatic resin, strongly cross-linked carbon chains. A CO2 laser can’t cut it, and the resulting burned mess creates toxic fumes ( like cyanide! ). Items coated in Epoxy, or cast Epoxy resins must not be used in the laser cutter. ( see Fiberglass ) |
| Fiberglass | Emits fumes | It’s a mix of two materials that cant’ be cut. Glass (etch, no cut) and epoxy resin (fumes) |
| Coated Carbon Fiber | Emits noxious fumes | A mix of two materials. Thin carbon fiber mat can be cut, with some fraying - but not when coated. |
| Any foodstuff ( such as meat, seaweed ‘nori’ sheets, cookie dough, bread, tortillas… ) | The laser is not designed to cut food, and people cut things that create poisonous/noxious substances such as wood smoke and acrylic smoke. | If you want to cut foodstuffs, consider sponsoring a food-only laser cutter for the space that is kept as clean as a commercial kitchen would require. |
| Material with Sticky Glue Backing | Coats lens, cracks lens | There are many normally laserable items such as thin wood laminates that you can purchase that become un-cuttable when the manufacturer adds a layer of peel-off glue on the bottom to attach them to surfaces. Examples include cork tiles, thin wood laminate, acrylic tiles, and paper stickers. Never cut these materials in the laser cutter if they have this backing. The glue will vaporize forming a coating on the lens that will coat it, cloud it, heat it, and then potentially crack the lens. The glue residue is worse than resin, and can’t be removed without risking damage to the lens … requiring a lens replacement. |
The laser can cut or etch. The materials that the laser can cut materials like wood, paper, cork, and some kinds of plastics. Etching can be done on almost anything, wood, cardboard, aluminum, stainless steel, plastic, marble, stone, tile, and glass.
| Material | Max thickness | Notes | WARNINGS! |
|---|---|---|---|
| Many woods | 1/4" | Avoid oily/resinous woods | Be very careful about cutting oily woods, or very resinous woods as they also may catch fire. |
| Plywood/Composite woods | 1/4" | These contain glue, and may not laser cut as well as solid wood. | |
| MDF/Engineered woods | 1/4" | These are okay to use but may experience a higher amount of charring when cut. | |
| Paper, card stock | thin | Cuts very well on the laser cutter, and also very quickly. | |
| Cardboard, carton | thicker | Cuts well but may catch fire. | Watch for fire. |
| Cork | 1/8" | Thin cork can be cut, but the quality of the cut depends on the thickness and quality of the cork. Engineered cork has a lot of glue in it, and may not cut as well. | Avoid cutting thicker cork (5mm). Engraves well, cuts poorly. |
| Acrylic/Lucite/Plexiglas/PMMA | 1/2" | Cuts extremely well leaving a beautifully polished edge. | |
| Thin Polycarbonate Sheeting (<1mm) | <1mm | Very thin polycarbonate can be cut, but tends to discolor badly. Extremely thin sheets (0.5mm and less) may cut with yellowed/discolored edges. Polycarbonate absorbs IR strongly, and is a poor material to use in the laser cutter. | Watch for smoking/burning |
| Delrin (POM) | thin | Delrin comes in a number of shore strengths (hardness) and the harder Delrin tends to work better. Great for gears! | |
| Kapton tape (Polyimide) | 1/16" | Works well, in thin sheets and strips like tape. | |
| Mylar | 1/16" | Works well if it’s thin. Thick mylar has a tendency to warp, bubble, and curl | Gold coated mylar will not work. |
| Solid Styrene | 1/16" | Smokes a lot when cut, but can be cut. | Keep it thin. |
| Depron foam | 1/4" | Used a lot for hobby, RC aircraft, architectural models, and toys. 1/4" cuts nicely, with a smooth edge. | Must be constantly monitored. |
| Gator foam | Foam core gets burned and eaten away compared to the top and bottom hard paper shell. | Not a fantastic thing to cut, but it can be cut if watched. | |
| Cloth/felt/hemp/cotton | They all cut well. Our lasers can be used in lace-making. | Not plastic coated or impregnated cloth! | |
| Leather/Suede | 1/8" | Leather is very hard to cut, but can be if it’s thinner than a belt (call it 1/8"). Our “Advanced” laser training class covers this. | Real leather only! Not ‘pleather’ or other imitations … they are made of PVC. |
| Magnetic Sheet | Cuts beautifully | ||
| NON-CHLORINE-containing rubber | Fine for cutting. | Beware chlorine-containing rubber! | |
| Teflon (PTFE) | thin | Cuts OK in thin sheets. See https://www.ulsinc.com/materials/teflon ; the issues listed in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymer_fume_fever should not matter because our lasers are fully vented and exhausted. | |
| Carbon fiber mats/weave that has not had epoxy applied |
Can be cut, very slowly. | You must not cut carbon fiber that has been coated!! | |
| Coroplast (‘corrugated plastic’) | 1/4" | Difficult because of the vertical strips. Three passes at 80% power, 7% speed, and it will be slightly connected still at the bottom from the vertical strips. |
All the above “cuttable” materials can be etched, in some cases very deeply.
In addition, you can etch:
| Material | Notes | WARNINGS! |
|---|---|---|
| Glass | Green seems to work best…looks sandblasted. | Flat glass should be engraved in our cutter as we have no rotary device. Round or cylindrical objects like bottles or glasses will have distortion. |
| Ceramic tile | ||
| Anodized aluminum | Vaporizes the anodization away. | |
| Painted/coated metals | Vaporizes the paint away. | |
| Stone, Marble, Granite, Soapstone, Onyx. | Gets a white “textured” look when etched. | 100% power, 50% speed or less works well for etching. |
Cermark is the brand name of a marking compound containing molybdenum that costs ~$50-100 for a 12oz spray can, which can be sprayed onto stainless steel, brass, aluminum, copper, nickel, glass or light-colored stone/tile before being etched to leave behind a permanent dark black mark. Some people have had some luck using dry moly lube spray to the same effect. It is thought that the molybdenum sulfate in the dry lube breaks down to molybdenum which either oxidizes or reacts with the underlying surface to create the mark.
Wow, so if you want to cut sheet plastic, you need a waterjet? (or a router)… did not know how many things you cannot cut.
Greg
Hmm, wonder what manner of cradle it would take to hold something like this; or, does something this size even need a cradle?
(and if I ever get the end railings done, where would a cradle support it then?)
Yep, the thread is going to hell… oh well, best intentions
Todd Brody said:
I like the idea of it being able to lie flat to provide a big foam surface for working on the side of a box car or such. Using both sides of the V allows twice the surface area without the other side of the V being in the way.
If you tried to use those “side clamps” on something like an Geep/NW/steam engine/etc., you would probably break the railings at some point. Consider the weight difference between H0 and large scale when trying to set engine into the jig.
If the V folded up to its limits (i.e., until the sides came together), you could use is as an inverted paint stand/work on undercarrage on longer cars by removing their roofs, inverting, and putting the V within.
The whole thing would have to retail for <$50 to have a market.
Further,
Rather than two sideboards for the V, we do it with four. Then we can use smaller sideboards and using set holes/slots in the frame, space them out as desired for shorter/longer equipment.
Also the area between the two sides could be used to let long detail (e.g., pantographs) hang between them.
Further, one side could be removed, the other folded up, and this could then be a paint stand for short equipment.
Sideboards would be sized to take advantage of the area of the cutting surface to help economics. The laser I use has a 24" x 18" table. So the sideboards are ~5.75"T x 8.75"L. A “flat” “collapsed” table would be ~ 11.5" x 17.5" expandable from there.
When you own/run your own business that sells wholesale and retail, as I do, you quickly learn that engineering is driven by the economics of sales, production, and shipment.
Ummm I’m not so convinced that styrene can’t be laser cut as I’ve got custom cuts done by Alan on the Gal Line.
Greg Elmassian said:
Yep, the thread is going to hell… oh well, best intentions
In what way?..
