Yup.
Really funny.
So, let’s see…you’re picking on Canadians, okay, and maybe, uh, HJ, and let’s see…Fred or Chris?
Dave,
Not to worry, we know where that one’s coming from.
KookooroohKooroohkookoo… 
I guess the trolls are disappointed that the LSC thread on MLS is 7 pages long…but (unfortunately for them) took a left turn in right field…LS’ers holding to their true self (with some assistance from one of the moderators) and not holding to the subject…
I guess they decided to visit us and try to make more news. 
Curmudgeon said:It's all right, TOC, I'm glad he has a sense of humour. Now I've got to go out and find me some beer, eh. Oh darn, doctor says I can't. Now there's a joke :(
Yup. Really funny. So, let's see......you're picking on Canadians, okay, and maybe, uh, HJ, and let's see...Fred or Chris?
Chris Vernell said:
Curmudgeon said:
Yup. Really funny. So, let’s see…you’re picking on Canadians, okay, and maybe, uh, HJ, and let’s see…Fred or Chris?It’s all right, TOC, I’m glad he has a sense of humour. Now I’ve got to go out and find me some beer, eh. Oh darn, doctor says I can’t. Now there’s a joke
Chris, It is possible that he watched too much Rich Little. And that was a little rich for him.
:lol: :lol: OTOH … there’s always … next week!
Warren,
I am not sure where you are coming from. My previous MLS thread on the topic was locked by the same moderator who in the current thread has threatened to once again not only lock the thread but delete it if the supposed innuendo and personal attacks on an individual are not ceased. Following posters stated that the supposed claim of personal attacks was totally unfounded and the discussion was quite civil. The moderator in question has emailed me previously for supposedly ‘attacking’ individuals and improper language. The same language and technique are used by others and yet their postings go unchallenged. The problem is that it is simply not possible to keep the thread topic on course. The site moderators need to police the postings and to keep the thread flowing the posting nature needs to track off course for a while to ensure that it does not get locked by the individuals with vested interests. Any thread on the topic is going to cause a measure of dissent, much like this thread.
Look at the flow of this thread. Started as a posting warning that personal attacks would not be tolerated. Baiting ensured that the thread's future would be jeapordised. Then a member proposes a selective ban on posting responses to his postings. Was this a last ditched effort to stiifle discussion and embroil the opponents in a slinging match and stifle discussion? Bob has graciously allowed this thread to continue.
I have been an ardent follower of this site for many years, but initially made the decision to not become a member and post on the site. I was content to be a guest and absorb the banter and topic info. It was the posting response by the individual as regards instigating topic response bans that boiled my blood and spurred me into action. This was nothing more than a blatant attempt to end the topic and quell the voice of dissent. Mamma did not bring up a dummy!Tim,
What it boils down to is:
a) their bigger sandbox got shut down
b) they have a new sandbox which is of virtually no consequence
c) they try to keep anything to do with the defunct owner/sponsor of their big sandbox out of other fora, by any means possible.
What Bob suggested will work fine, I translate and then forward it to him. He posts it.
Have a problem with the content: write a letter to the editor or journalist!
Have a problem with the translation: do your own translation!
Those who question the sources: the sources are clearly referenced with each translation. A direct link is, as far as I’m concerned, not required. It is easy enough to find the sources.
Yes, in some cases one may have to go the extra step to subscribe to a particular service and yes, it may cost some money to read what only the subscribers get to read. Such is life, no free lunch!
“So it goes” Kurt Vonnegut
Tim Brien said:
Jerry,again ‘innocence and denial’ feigns an attempt at personal rebuke. Your buddy (D.E.) is not here to help out you this time with his ‘friendly’ reminders about ‘personally directed’ language.
I hope that you see yourself clear through this feigned personal attack, as I suppose that there is a life after the inevitable and we all must learn to coexist,
We are all mature adults and hopefully will act accordingly.
Tim,
I have no idea who D.E. is.
This happens to be the only forum on LSC I have posted on and I only posted on it because I believed (and still believe) that I had a good suggestion on how to minimize the confrontations.
I have not been paying any attention to what others have been saying on other parts of LSC.
I do not claim any particular knowledge about what is happening in Germany and it is true that I make no effort to inform myself about whatever is happening or will happen. I am a realist and I play with toy trains. I had nothing to do with whatever happened to *** and I have no means of affecting whatever the eventual outcome of *** will be.
When the dust settles I will simply go on playing with my toy trains and I will adjust my buying habits according to whatever happens in Germany.
Quote:Of course there is and that was the point I was trying to make. If you see an issue one way you should be given the courtesy and respect of being able to make your point free from harassment so that you can make your point as clearly as possible without your thread being hijacked by me or by anyone else.
It may be a suprise but there is usually more than one side to an argument.
If I should happen to strongly disagree with you I should be given equal respect and courtesy by being able to make my point also free from harassment and hijacking of my topic.
If a third person asks a question about an issue you and I would both be free to comment on it.
I use you as an example but I have not found you to be disrespectful of my right to say something and I have tried to avoid confrontations with you on your topics that I happen to disagree with. I have never felt a need to ask you to stay away from topics I start. There are only two individuals who I have asked to stay away from my topics and they have simply ignored my requests.
I could probably start a topic about just about anything and they would both soon be posting on it regardless of the subject. I consider that to be disrespectful and discourteous. If others do not see it that way so be it.
I just figured out who D.E. is. I would be proud to consider him to be “my buddy” but for what it is worth, Dwight sent me one of his ‘friendly’ reminders about ‘personally directed’ language and he was asking me to be careful about what I said to you. He even went so far as to delete a post I had made on your topic because I mentioned your name in it. I did not take offense at it because my past experience with him has always been that he treats everyone the same (whether we like it or not).
Jerry
Tim, the way you started the thread baited the trolls whether that was your intent or not. There are those that feel it’s their sworn duty to stifle any discussion of the subject. It’s a good thing that the said moderator took the actions he did. Otherwise it would have turned into a mudslinging brawl as it has done here. In this instance it’s a good thing that the topic took a turn. That is what kept it alive. That also sidelined the trolls. As HJ has hinted at, one is hard put to find much of substance when it comes to modeling posts by those trolls. As you correctly ask, are they lobbyists or hobbyists? I’m a hobbyist…I’m going to get my fix whether or not any manufacturer stays in business… I appreciate every one of them as they save me a lot of time…but I don’t need any of them. If I can’t buy it…I’ll make it.
Jerry,
when one posts on an open forum then one is open to the vagaries of the replies that may be posted. It is a little pompous to expect to be able to discriminate who may and may not respond to one’s posting. This certainly points to an insecure foundation on which one is building one’s case. Under your hypothesis one may knowingly post a point of view knowing that those who may post a contrary view may not respond as they have been previously banned from replying to your postings. It is your posting which spurred me to join this site. Can you handle that as I have strong viewpoints and now you have given me an avenue on two forum to express those points? I indeed thankyou for the chance to do so. I can readily see now how a manufacturer specific forum would have been moderated, much like another manufacturer forum which I no longer visit, as the inhouse cronies ganged up on any dissenters to drive them away. If a manufacturer is only reliant on pro-manufacturer viewpoints, then cannot a charge of bias be so directed. Had enough, yet!
Let me tell you a little story about a despotic president who decided to embroil the world in a potential third world war, all in the name of freedom for all. Before going to war he handpicked not only all his generals, who were known to be his supporters, 100%, but he also picked the leaders who would prop up his puppet regime in a far off country. Any general or political leader with views contrary to his were overlooked and only the one-sided views of his 'allies' were listened to. End result, another Vietnam fiasco, no military in place to protect the new ''hand picked regime" (with known pro-presidential viewpoints). Who sacked the existing military regime and existing public service sector but a pro-presidential viewpoint supporter, leaving both a power vacuum and a military vacuum, which aggravated and lead to the now current political/military position? When you enlist 'yes' men, you can guarantee that the outcome will be exactly what you predict it to be. Do you see an analogy with a known business owner, only using 'yes' men to do his dirty work? Dirty work always results in dirty linen. Problem is that it is always the 'yes' men who are the fallguys and the headman always smells like a rose.
P.S. I do not need friendly moderators to put my point across. If a moderator takes 'offence' and locks or moderates my posting then such is life. I will always live to fight (and win) another day.Warren,
your comments are much appreciated. What incensed me was that the trolls had once again succeeded in having discussion censored. An interesting point is your upcoming ammendments to the labour laws and immigration in your country. Newspaper polls place a 70% majority on accepting the legalisation of immigrant workers from Mexico as they are already entrenched in the American workforce and to displace them would cause economic mayhem. Less than 30% are oposed to accepting the new laws. Problem is that it is those 30% of people opposed to the laws who are the most vocal with their lobbying of their senators. One senator when questioned about the popularity of the law stated that of 1300 emails/letters to his office, only 35 were in support of the law change. It is the very vocal minority who have the loudest voice. The complacent majority do not even raise a whisper. Does the senate look to the polls or to the evidence sent to their offices? The loudest squeak is always oiled.
If I 'baited' the trolls then only by discussion will the truth be made known. The saying 'no news is good news' is hardly appropriate in this context.Depends on whose polls you believe as to “support”.
I have yet to find one person who wants blanket “amnesty”.
Why can some not go through the same hoops everyone else did?The real reason behind this is to find out who is there and identify them.
I do believe there is another plan we don’t yet know about once they have them identified.
See what happens?
Threads get hijacked!
Dave,
not a highjacking, but merely to point out that if a minority is vocal then they will be heard. A silent majority is next to useless. If one only listens to ‘yes’ men then are the yes men not simply clones of the original, devoid of original thought? I may not be American, but I am pretty well versed on current happenings, outside of my universe. I do not take the ‘party view’. I like to look behind the scenes and then make my own decision.
Which is exactly what some have done in the situation not to be mentioned, and found out a lot.
Stuff that it appears some don’t want out.
Problem is, it’s coming out in print whether they want it to or not, so why not scream and holler to keep all discussions shut down, if for no other reason than to keep the “faithful” just that?
It has been an amazing scenario to watch unfold.
Like the manufacturer’s forum you left, only worse, as they no longer limit said attempts to manufacturer’s forums.
Gotta watch out for three letters or less.
I guess under said proposed rules, we cannot talk about USA trains, or the company that cannot be mentioned?
It is odd.
Dave,
it is the opposition to news that I do not understand. One only has to visit a hobby supplier to see that a supply condition exists. Track is rapidly disappearing or non-existant (a windfall for competitors). Stock on shelves dwindling leading modellors to buy non-specific manufacturer items, expanding their exposure to other brandname manufacturers. The delays in production have turned modellors to other brandnames for their purchases.
A company entering possibility of insolvency is an everyday occurrence, so emotions need not have been elevated. An insolvent company knee-deep in rumour does attract both support and opposition, speculating the reasons for the failure. Better outcome for the 'supporters' would have been to let the rumours have their use by date expiry and ignore the whole process of 'opposition'. The master plan backfired and only aggravated the condition, resulting in only the lower eschalons of support in the power base now responding to postings. The 'big boys' have gone sullenly quiet. As a German soldier on a famous American hour long comedy show used to say, with his head obscured by bushes - very interesting!Tim Brien said:
Jerry,It is your posting which spurred me to join this site. Can you handle that as I have strong viewpoints and now you have given me an avenue on two forum to express those points? I indeed thankyou for the chance to do so.
Had enough, yet!
I will always live to fight (and win) another day.
It is easy to fight and win when the battle only exists in one’s imagination.
Can I handle it?
Had enough, yet?
Since the singular purpose that I had in posting here was to voice my opinion on how confrontations could be minimized and I have accomplished that 100% my participation in this topic has served its purpose.
It was never my expectation that everyone would accept my suggestion - certainly not the two individuals my suggestion was in reference to.
Beyond that I don’t know what the battle I am supposed to be fighting is; I don’t know what I am supposed to be having difficulty handling; and I guess the only thing I might be expected to have had enough of - have been comments by people for whom I have no respect, who have been offering opinions about things I did not ask, and from whom I have not received common courtesy.
There simply is no reason or point in my saying anything further here. I have responded to everyone that so far has addressed anything specifically to me so the timing seems perfect for me to leave (not in a huff or anything - just leaving a topic because I have said all that was necessary to communicate the point I had wished to make).
Of course someone will probably rush in to “explain” my “real reasons” for departing even though I have stated my reasons quite plainly and clearly. I need no assistance in interpreting my reasons but as with everything else there are those who feel they know the reasons for why I (and everyone else) do anything.
I will not see or read those comments because as I leave I will unsubscribe to this topic which will also probably initiate further comments - sigh!
Jerry
nevermind…read what I was asking bout elsewhere
Hey, Vic-
“It was never my expectation that everyone would accept my suggestion - certainly not the two individuals my suggestion was in reference to.”
You know anybody who accepted it, or even gave it second thought?
I guess when you are a legend in your own mind, you can believe anything…and often do.
Hope that door doesn’t hurt too bad…
Tim Brien said:
Dave, it is the opposition to news that I do not understand. One only has to visit a hobby supplier to see that a supply condition exists. Track is rapidly disappearing or non-existant (a windfall for competitors). Stock on shelves dwindling leading modellors to buy non-specific manufacturer items, expanding their exposure to other brandname manufacturers. The delays in production have turned modellors to other brandnames for their purchases.A company entering possibility of insolvency is an everyday occurrence, so emotions need not have been elevated. An insolvent company knee-deep in rumour does attract both support and opposition, speculating the reasons for the failure. Better outcome for the 'supporters' would have been to let the rumours have their use by date expiry and ignore the whole process of 'opposition'. The master plan backfired and only aggravated the condition, resulting in only the lower eschalons of support in the power base now responding to postings. The 'big boys' have gone sullenly quiet. As a German soldier on a famous American hour long comedy show used to say, with his head obscured by bushes - very interesting!</blockquote>Tim,
Some of those who have oodles of wares from a certain mfg feel that they own a piece of the mfg. Well they don’t, they just bought what that mfg produced.
If one would have told the same people at this time last year that a certain mfg would hit the wall, one would have been stoned or ridden out of town on a rail. But the writing was clearly on the wall.
Why are those people so upset? Could it be that they believed a certain mfg was infallible? Well, I know that the present pope hails from Bavaria but I doubt that the Vatican was ever involved in any manner to get to “infallibility status”.
On the opposition to news:
I well remember the drive problem on a certain engine. There was absolutely nothing wrong with that engine, but one after the other failed. That cost a certain mfg a few months of redesigning time to fix the problem, with all else being put on the backburner. Result production delays in a domino fashion. Mention that anywhere at the time “It’s bashing and a smear campaign.” Actually it wasn’t, it was just a heads-up for potential buyers.
Plenty of examples in every category of the operation and the usual reply was “Nothing wrong, business as usual”.So it is nothing new that News which doesn’t fit the “Weltanschauung” needs to be “derailed” in one way or other.
Someone asked are these people hobbyists or lobbyists. Very good question!
PS Let’ see what happens next week!
And, to further derail this thread, I have tried to point out problems, with facts and measurements, and what the standard IS to compare those measurements to, and all you hear is “BASHING!”.
Why do you think I don’t even bother posting those things anymore, except for one company who understands I am not “bashing” or trying to put them out of business.
There were and are those who think otherwise, even with that company, and go to great lengths to silence the messenger.
To the effect that one even modified a post and sent it to a manufacturer in an attempt to get me sued.
I know who he is.
Take the issue at hand. When you have some obviously trying to elicit statements that can be used against someone later, and when that failed, have them try to say someone had said something they did not, ever, and no-one has in print that I have seen.
It is the fringe of the “bashing” crowd. They think they speak for the manufacturer, think they can make statements, some even going so far as printing private e-mail responses they have elicited that, while of high interest, no one else has posted said things.
Was that an attempt to get someone to say that was true?
And then pass that information along to some attorney?
Possibly.
It isn’t worth the hassle anymore.
One posted on a manufacturer’s forum that I wouldn’t be answering a post as I was too busy with other things.
The inference was the stuff that cannot be mentioned.
No.
How often do you see me post anywhere anymore?
When I get morons that post items that I feel need addressing, I do.
When I can help, I do.
On the Soapsuds site, I posted one non-train item, I think it’s the first thread I’ve started in I don’t know how long.
I watch, if I have an answer, I give it.
Here, due to the lack of rules and what used to be a friendly environmet, I let loose a bit more.
What pisses me off is the idiots who think they know why I am not posting somewhere, and they haven’t a clue.
If I’m having a bad Fibro day (or week, or month) you don’t see much of me anywhere.
If there is something going on behind the scenes I need to be working on, that takes my available time.
The shift in attitude (I know which group started it) seems to have become the de-facto standard in the hobby internet.
ANY TIME you hear ANYONE claim “BASHING!”, the first thing you need to do is ignore them, and probably permanently, THEN go find out what the facts are behind the statement that caused the “bashing” claim in the first place.
I have a whole list of folks that it isn’t worth my time to read or respond to.
Some I will read to see what stupidity they are up to.
Some are just plain morons, and I love to respond to their drivel, sometimes I am the first, and it drives them nutz.
Life in the slow lane, eh?