Larry Otis said:
.................All this depends on the agreement(s) the distributor has with its resellers and the manufacturer.
LAO
John Joseph Sauer said:Hast Du braune Freiland-Eier? (Do you have Brown free range eggs?) :D
Du gehst mir auf die Eier!
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:So I'm to understand that speculation about two year old events is NOT a DIVERSION?
But it is a nice try at a diversion.
I’ll take rose colored glasses over the brown tint you wear any day!
Jack Barton said:
...................I’ll take rose colored glasses over the brown tint you wear any day!
John Joseph Sauer said:JJS:
Warranty service comes from the manufacturer- I think it would be safe to assume that when the folks at Kingsbridge bought the name they assumed the responsibility for all product with that company's name on it.
. . . the name (I assume you mean “LGB”)=An asset, with some current value and the possibility of increased ongoing value, thus purchased out of the bankruptcy.
Warranty service=A liability, and generally not purchased out of a bankruptcy.
That shedding of liabilities is precisely what a bankruptcy is all about.
For All:
There is absolutely no U.S. federal or state law or other requirement that service, parts, or any other support are available at all, much less for the 7 years some folks fantasize about. Just look at the requirements of the FTC to see for yourselves. The only (U.S. federal) requirement is that the stated, or in some rare cases the implied warranty is reasonably honored. There also is no legal requirement for parts availability or support, nor a requirement that the principals, creditors, or employees of a failed corporation honor the warranty.
It would be highly unlikely and rare that potential warranty claims would survive a bankruptcy. Even the ‘class action’ referenced above would not have any significant chance of getting BK court attention. Warrantys are generally only as good as the promising company and the customer’s lawyer can make them. When the promiser of the warranty is gone, so is that warranty. Anything beyond that is just wishful thinking.
Happy RRing,
Jerry
Understood Jerry.
In this case though the promiser of the warranty has not actually gone.
Especially as LGBofA never went bankrupt. They are merely in hiding.
For LGBofA to legitimately avoid their corporate responsibilties they would have to cease to exist as a corporate entity.
In which case logically Maerklin would not have to contest the “ownership” of distibution rights in court to actually assume those rights in NA.
Tony,
IMHO Marklin terminated the warranty center this year… There for LGBofA is no longer a warranty center…
Marklin is now the warranty center, but you have to send your stuff to Europe…
Bob Burton said:
Tony,IMHO Marklin terminated the warranty center this year… There for LGBofA is no longer a warranty center…
Marklin is now the warranty center, but you have to send your stuff to Europe…
Sounds to me like the trickle down theory that Reagan used to advocate; in this case the well known arrogance of “The Boys” trickled down to the Sales/Marketing/Product Manager, or did it?
I also remember a certain press release from PT aka Tony Castellano
TC press release said:
To our LGB customers: First, we would like to thank you for your patience over the past two years. As you may know, there have been many changes in the world of LGB which have affected us all. We want to update you on the situation as it now stands.The assets of E.P.Lehmann of Nuernberg Germany, makers of LGB trains, were purchased in 2007 by Märklin. As of now, it appears that there will not be an agreement for LGB of America to purchase LGB products from Märklin in 2008. While many specific items are in short supply, we do currently have over 250 different LGB products in our warehouse, and there are further supplies at various retailers across America.
In connection with the above, we must regrettably now refer all customer inquiries to Märklin regarding such subjects as the LGB Club, general LGB customer service, LGB technical support, etc. We understand this causes an inconvenience for LGB customers in America, and we sympathize with you. In an attempt to bring some relief, we will do our best to continue performing repairs on LGB products as our limited parts supplies permit. However, we will be unable to accommodate parts requests as in the past.
Sincerely,
Tony Castellano
President
Quite frankly this thread should end NOW.
If any of you guys contributing to this; would step back and read all of your constant speculations, repeated accusations, insulting replies, and constant bickering over a simple demise of a Toymaker; you would soon see how utterly CHILDISH it appears.
Come on guys…end it here and go out and play with your toys; then start a constructive thread on what you have actually accomplished. Tell us all of your ideas of better ways to enjoy the toys that you have purchased.
This way your experiences can contribute to the improvement of the hobby, and set a new high in the positive aproach towards education and learning in this great "Experience with model trains.
TAKE A TOY OUT OF IT’S BOX TODAY, AND PLAY WITH IT…you might find that you can enjoy it…
END OF THREAD
TonyWalsham said:[i]On Edit: Fred posted while I was researching and typing. I apologize for continuing this and am now going to take his advice, advice and go work on my new construction company railroad.[/i]
. . . the promiser of the warranty has not actually gone. Especially as LGBofA never went bankrupt. They are merely in hiding.
Tony, All:
Probably not what some LGB owners want to hear, but I haven’t found a single place where LGBoA warranted LGB trains. LGBoA are listed as a “Warranty Service Department” in some of the LGB documentation. Note also that that printed matter was provided by LGB, the manufacturer, not by LGBoA.
That means LGBoA were acting as an agent to provide service to support LGB’s stated warranty, but it does not mean they are responsible for continuing the warranty for LGB trains. That warranty was provided by the German Company, LGB and lacking the onward purchase or assumption of that warranty commitment by Marklin or others, that warranty died with LGB’s insolvency.
And further, the warranty argument is kind of a moot issue, as there were several “limitations” (the U.S. legal term) as to time period (". . . two years (LGB Club members: for five years) . . ."), type of defect (". . . materials and workmanship . . .") and source (". . . purchased from an authorized retailer . . ."). Two further statements read: “This warranty does not cover damage caused by improper use or improper modifications/repairs. This warranty does not cover normal wear and tear.” Clearly this does not include failures where the train was worn out or was broken during use.
LGBoA may be “. . . hiding . . .”, but I don’t believe it is from the warranty issue, as they really had no legal responsibility beyond LGB’s, which most likely ended with LGB’s insolvency.
Happy RRing,
Jerry
Jerry that exactly the way I read the warrenty issue also, its no different than when a car dealership changes the manufacturer they sell, if Big Vinny’s Car Dealership gets dropped Ford and ends up selling Chevy’s, any obligation to service Ford warrenties ends when that sales agreement terminated. So no matter how loyal a customer might be, once that service agrement expires, the customer has to go elsewhere, and thats why Silvergate has ended any obligation to service LGB warrenties, as they are now selling Chevy’s, so to speak.
Personally I wouldnt plan to purchase any NOS LGB products until this whole issue gets shaked out.
That LGBoA is dormant and Silvergate is a NEW company means that someone is trying to isolate themselves from something.
Otherwise the name of the existing company could be changed - much cheaper.
Far more interesting is the claim that LGBoA controls the distribution rights for “a few more years”.
Precisely how many years ? 1, 5, 10, in perpetuity?
That would presumably answer the question of how long it might take to see product in NA through an official channel.
Les
Victor:
Yep, I think that is a good example!
LES:
There are several possible reasons for forming a new operating company while keeping the old one active. Strictly supposition, but some reasons can include retaining the rights (within the old company) to any disputed assets while isolating the new company’s product lines and operations from any potential legal actions or fallout. It also helps to insulate any new representation agreements from nasty spill over in the form of negative publicity or hard costs. This is a pretty common business practice and beats waiting around while the lawyers do battle, with the possibility of opposing parties smearing each other.
IMHO, from a business standpoint, this is a very good strategy, especially for an expanding business where the owners expect to create significant growth and higher value in the future. Of course, this could all be totally wrong. Just as much probability that someone in San Diego just wanted to start a new firm using the city’s nickname!!
Happy RRing,
Jerry
Gentlemen,
Sometimes it is best to follow the money and at others it’s best to closely follow the chronology of events. Take your pick! Yes, you may pick both!
LES DITTRICH said:I would think that they are trying to isolate themselves from doing service work and supplying parts for a company whose product they are not planning on distributing in the future - no more , no less.
That LGBoA is dormant and Silvergate is a NEW company means that someone is trying to isolate themselves from something. Otherwise the name of the existing company could be changed - much cheaper. Far more interesting is the claim that LGBoA controls the distribution rights for "a few more years". Precisely how many years ? 1, 5, 10, in perpetuity? That would presumably answer the question of how long it might take to see product in NA through an official channel. Les
Fred,
I stood back when page after page of forum thread was devoted to the merits of imbibing a particular brand of single malt whisk(e)y. I find no merit in discussion of one’s particular choice in alcohol. I do enjoy speculation on particular topics. You enjoy your topic without interruption, so please allow those who like to speculate the same courtesy that you are shown. I am not being critical, just equal strokes for equal folks.
LES DITTRICH said:Les, The other reason for a new name could be different partners involved in a new venture. LAO
That LGBoA is dormant and Silvergate is a NEW company means that someone is trying to isolate themselves from something. Otherwise the name of the existing company could be changed - much cheaper. Far more interesting is the claim that LGBoA controls the distribution rights for "a few more years". Precisely how many years ? 1, 5, 10, in perpetuity? That would presumably answer the question of how long it might take to see product in NA through an official channel. Les
My posting re: The trademark LGB ownership is now in print (the back page of the 2008 PIKO catalogue) indicating LGB is owned by the German firm Marklin.
OK, Silvergate is the only recourse as they had no product to sell called “LGB” and they were no longer seen by even their major client, PIKO, as owning the trademark. What does anyone say to PIKO other than we have changed our name???
Wendell
Larry Otis said:Sure Larry, really good one for a Monday! Personally I can hardly wait for the fruits from "the new venture". :D So far what we've heard/seen from "Phony Tony" is a lot of promises, which one by one went by the wayside as "things" unwound and developed. Only statement that exceeded that so far is Johannes Richter at the 2007 Nürnberg Fair with his infamous "We will be back!"; well at least he didn't say " ... wait til next week!"
Les, The other reason for a new name could be different partners involved in a new venture. LAO