Kind of experienced that on a LARGE 2-rail “0” layout I operated on for 10+ years.
Double track SP Bay-area main, two trains running flat out in opposing directions, you got to do wayfreights fit in between schedules.
That was so much fun I am still smiling.
Troy said:Hi Troy doing well as can be in 102 heat ;)
How is your outside/garage layout coming along Vic. It's been a long time since I've been privvy to an update.I've just had my first open day here.Everyone brought a wonderful spread of models,bought and made.We had live steam,battery,diesel-electric and electric.Only thing missing was clockwork.(couldn't find the bike keys !) How are you?
Glad to hear your meet went well. Well the garage itself is finished, I built the benchwork but have so many other pots on the fire I’ve had to put almost everything outside of my workbench models on hold, got two plans for the indoors worked out and I had a rather tiny but agressive mountain layout planned outside but I recently picked up a set of LGB closed vesitbule coachs so now I’m rethinking it as I really want to run all three together behing my Bmann BumbleBee. We’ll see, if I go with my latest reworked planset at least I wont be replacing gearboxes every summer. I’m getting really dam tired of not having a layout.
Tim Brien said:Whoof. The disclaimer was right. Thick skins required in this room, as nobody gives a newbie a break.
Personally, I have no time for an automatically controlled railroad. The last thing I want from a railroad is to set it up so that it runs by itself, so that I am able to walk away from it. The enjoyment, I derive, is from actually being at the railroad and 'operating it'. ..... I have seen many fully automatic railroads at exhibitions and my immediate thinking is walk away, nothing to see here. If one wants a completely auto railroad then save thousands of dollars and purchase a train simulator game for ten bucks, but firstly check to see if the game is actually compatible with your computer system software. Now that would be new, a manufacturer making a system totally incompatible with existing operating systems - totally captive market (as long as the manufacturer survives to keep the market).
I am sorry that you do not enjoy my favorite control method for model railroads. Me? I really love fiddling with the bits and pieces, and I really enjoy the tinker factor of the garden railroads. I love the fact that I can use my programming background to teach my locomotives manners, and give each a bit of automatic control. I hope I have not painted any methods of control with the type of hostility that is so prevalent here, as from personal experience I can tell you that it is not fun to be on the receiving end of this judgment.
Tim Brien said:And now, just for a bit more of fun, I am compared directly with dangerous highway scofflaws. I love the treatment on this forum, really I do. Even though I have obtained my "more expensive (now redundant)" system piece by piece, and little by little over the course of three years, I am the same as a kid with a 40k hot rod? I balk at the high loco prices. I spit nails when I had to fork over the money for the MTS system that I currently enjoy. And now, I am faced with the unhappy fact that the system I was felt forced to purchase (using my limited disposable income) has been discontinued and will not be supported in the future?
David W. speaks of limited disposable income and yet has purchased one of the more expensive (now redundant) operating systems. Reminds me of the current 'hoon' situation we have in Australia, with speeding young drivers carrying out street races on public roads. These guys have road machines that they have spent forty to fifty to one hundred thousand dollars modifying to have the fastest car on this planet, but when told of a scheme that would cost them one hundred dollars to learn how to control their cars, the reply was, "I cannot afford $100.00 to spend on advanced driver education".
To cap it all off, the best reception I can get from the most experienced people in the hobby is that:
Curmudgeon said:
We don't even bother trying to get out fixes on aristocr....aft and the ex-LGB line anymore.As far as I am concerned, they can fix the problems themselves.
102…that’s hot.
I saw a bumblebee last year on a layout.Good looking loco.Try the rack locos if you’re going for the mountain.I’ve seen two in action.They’re very good.
regards,
Troy
Dave…have hope.
They feed on themselves.
On with the hobby…
Build…run…play…
dave wiskochil said:Tim Brien said:Whoof. The disclaimer was right. Thick skins required in this room, as nobody gives a newbie a break.
Personally, I have no time for an automatically controlled railroad. The last thing I want from a railroad is to set it up so that it runs by itself, so that I am able to walk away from it. The enjoyment, I derive, is from actually being at the railroad and 'operating it'. ..... I have seen many fully automatic railroads at exhibitions and my immediate thinking is walk away, nothing to see here. If one wants a completely auto railroad then save thousands of dollars and purchase a train simulator game for ten bucks, but firstly check to see if the game is actually compatible with your computer system software. Now that would be new, a manufacturer making a system totally incompatible with existing operating systems - totally captive market (as long as the manufacturer survives to keep the market).I am sorry that you do not enjoy my favorite control method for model railroads. Me? I really love fiddling with the bits and pieces, and I really enjoy the tinker factor of the garden railroads. I love the fact that I can use my programming background to teach my locomotives manners, and give each a bit of automatic control. I hope I have not painted any methods of control with the type of hostility that is so prevalent here, as from personal experience I can tell you that it is not fun to be on the receiving end of this judgment.
Tim Brien said:And now, just for a bit more of fun, I am compared directly with dangerous highway scofflaws. I love the treatment on this forum, really I do. Even though I have obtained my "more expensive (now redundant)" system piece by piece, and little by little over the course of three years, I am the same as a kid with a 40k hot rod? I balk at the high loco prices. I spit nails when I had to fork over the money for the MTS system that I currently enjoy. And now, I am faced with the unhappy fact that the system I was felt forced to purchase (using my limited disposable income) has been discontinued and will not be supported in the future?
David W. speaks of limited disposable income and yet has purchased one of the more expensive (now redundant) operating systems. Reminds me of the current 'hoon' situation we have in Australia, with speeding young drivers carrying out street races on public roads. These guys have road machines that they have spent forty to fifty to one hundred thousand dollars modifying to have the fastest car on this planet, but when told of a scheme that would cost them one hundred dollars to learn how to control their cars, the reply was, "I cannot afford $100.00 to spend on advanced driver education".To cap it all off, the best reception I can get from the most experienced people in the hobby is that:
Curmudgeon said:
We don't even bother trying to get out fixes on aristocr....aft and the ex-LGB line anymore.As far as I am concerned, they can fix the problems themselves.
I do not wonder why the hobby is in decline. This does not seem to be a friendly place.
Thats what I like about it, and as HJ says “to each his own” Thats the beauty of the hobby.
If your happy with your results, thats all that matters. Others opinions are just that… each poster here, like Tim and Dave, brings their own experiences and those experiences color their opinions. Dave has his reasons for what he says, as does Tim, as do I. It very important to rememeber that whole “grain of salt” thing.
Do what you like and like what you do. I dont worry if someone doesnt care for my straight DC power with Atlas HO controllers, what the heck- they work for me. Dont like it and tell me you dont like it? fine with me, doesnt bother me. If someone doesnt like it, they dont have to ever worry about being invited over . Give the place a chance, it will grow on you, like a fungus! 
dave wiskochil said:Tim Brien said:Whoof. The disclaimer was right. Thick skins required in this room, as nobody gives a newbie a break.
Personally, I have no time for an automatically controlled railroad. The last thing I want from a railroad is to set it up so that it runs by itself, so that I am able to walk away from it. The enjoyment, I derive, is from actually being at the railroad and 'operating it'. ..... I have seen many fully automatic railroads at exhibitions and my immediate thinking is walk away, nothing to see here. If one wants a completely auto railroad then save thousands of dollars and purchase a train simulator game for ten bucks, but firstly check to see if the game is actually compatible with your computer system software. Now that would be new, a manufacturer making a system totally incompatible with existing operating systems - totally captive market (as long as the manufacturer survives to keep the market).I am sorry that you do not enjoy my favorite control method for model railroads. Me? I really love fiddling with the bits and pieces, and I really enjoy the tinker factor of the garden railroads. I love the fact that I can use my programming background to teach my locomotives manners, and give each a bit of automatic control. I hope I have not painted any methods of control with the type of hostility that is so prevalent here, as from personal experience I can tell you that it is not fun to be on the receiving end of this judgment.
Tim Brien said:And now, just for a bit more of fun, I am compared directly with dangerous highway scofflaws. I love the treatment on this forum, really I do. Even though I have obtained my "more expensive (now redundant)" system piece by piece, and little by little over the course of three years, I am the same as a kid with a 40k hot rod? I balk at the high loco prices. I spit nails when I had to fork over the money for the MTS system that I currently enjoy. And now, I am faced with the unhappy fact that the system I was felt forced to purchase (using my limited disposable income) has been discontinued and will not be supported in the future?
David W. speaks of limited disposable income and yet has purchased one of the more expensive (now redundant) operating systems. Reminds me of the current 'hoon' situation we have in Australia, with speeding young drivers carrying out street races on public roads. These guys have road machines that they have spent forty to fifty to one hundred thousand dollars modifying to have the fastest car on this planet, but when told of a scheme that would cost them one hundred dollars to learn how to control their cars, the reply was, "I cannot afford $100.00 to spend on advanced driver education".To cap it all off, the best reception I can get from the most experienced people in the hobby is that:
Curmudgeon said:
We don't even bother trying to get out fixes on aristocr....aft and the ex-LGB line anymore.As far as I am concerned, they can fix the problems themselves.
I do not wonder why the hobby is in decline. This does not seem to be a friendly place.
On here we all have our style. 
There are many reasons why the hobby is supposedly in decline, LSC supposedly not being “a friendly place” isn’t one of them.
If your happy with your MTS, fine. No problem! My question usually would be: whatelse did you look at?
Why? Because MTS is quite expensive for what it is. And everytime you want to implement one more feature you need to buy another gizmo. Between that and its limited ability to play nice with non-MTS components it is enough to make me wonder. And I haven’t really mentioned anything about it being a “dumb” control, have I?
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:dave wiskochil said:Tim Brien said:Whoof. The disclaimer was right. Thick skins required in this room, as nobody gives a newbie a break.
Personally, I have no time for an automatically controlled railroad. The last thing I want from a railroad is to set it up so that it runs by itself, so that I am able to walk away from it. The enjoyment, I derive, is from actually being at the railroad and 'operating it'. ..... I have seen many fully automatic railroads at exhibitions and my immediate thinking is walk away, nothing to see here. If one wants a completely auto railroad then save thousands of dollars and purchase a train simulator game for ten bucks, but firstly check to see if the game is actually compatible with your computer system software. Now that would be new, a manufacturer making a system totally incompatible with existing operating systems - totally captive market (as long as the manufacturer survives to keep the market).I am sorry that you do not enjoy my favorite control method for model railroads. Me? I really love fiddling with the bits and pieces, and I really enjoy the tinker factor of the garden railroads. I love the fact that I can use my programming background to teach my locomotives manners, and give each a bit of automatic control. I hope I have not painted any methods of control with the type of hostility that is so prevalent here, as from personal experience I can tell you that it is not fun to be on the receiving end of this judgment.
Tim Brien said:And now, just for a bit more of fun, I am compared directly with dangerous highway scofflaws. I love the treatment on this forum, really I do. Even though I have obtained my "more expensive (now redundant)" system piece by piece, and little by little over the course of three years, I am the same as a kid with a 40k hot rod? I balk at the high loco prices. I spit nails when I had to fork over the money for the MTS system that I currently enjoy. And now, I am faced with the unhappy fact that the system I was felt forced to purchase (using my limited disposable income) has been discontinued and will not be supported in the future?
David W. speaks of limited disposable income and yet has purchased one of the more expensive (now redundant) operating systems. Reminds me of the current 'hoon' situation we have in Australia, with speeding young drivers carrying out street races on public roads. These guys have road machines that they have spent forty to fifty to one hundred thousand dollars modifying to have the fastest car on this planet, but when told of a scheme that would cost them one hundred dollars to learn how to control their cars, the reply was, "I cannot afford $100.00 to spend on advanced driver education".To cap it all off, the best reception I can get from the most experienced people in the hobby is that:
Curmudgeon said:
We don't even bother trying to get out fixes on aristocr....aft and the ex-LGB line anymore.As far as I am concerned, they can fix the problems themselves.
I do not wonder why the hobby is in decline. This does not seem to be a friendly place.
Dave,On here we all have our style.
There are many reasons why the hobby is supposedly in decline, LSC supposedly not being “a friendly place” isn’t one of them.
If your happy with your MTS, fine. No problem! My question usually would be: whatelse did you look at?
Why? Because MTS is quite expensive for what it is. And everytime you want to implement one more feature you need to buy another gizmo. Between that and its limited ability to play nice with non-MTS components it is enough to make me wonder. And I haven’t really mentioned anything about it being a “dumb” control, have I?
So, I’ll post the dumb question so other people don’t have to. What’s an MTS? Do you mean MTH?
Ric Golding said:Ric,
So, I'll post the dumb question so other people don't have to. What's an MTS? Do you mean MTH?
MTS is the LGB implementation of a DCC system. It moved closer to being NMRA-DCC over the years, but it is still quite proprietary in some respects. And it has a “dumb” system architecture, which is a big drawback.
Victor Smith said:That isn't dumb in my book; dumb is when you purport to be "true plug and play" and it just isn't quite true. There are more basic questions on MTS basics that shouldn't need to be asked if it is "true plug and play".
Yeah, I've got the market on "dumb" control system cornered, as in 'stupidly simple" dumb, you cant get any more stupid simple dumb than a basic LGB pack and a bunch o' Atlas HO block controls ...BTW all turnouts are manual...D'oh! ;) :D
BTW I have an equally dumb system for my “EPL”; sans the manual turnouts, there aren’t any.
Tim Brien said:I'm inclined to see it the other way around. If all you want to do is operate, then get a train sim. But if you build stuff and then want to see it running, you need a layout.
I have seen many fully automatic railroads at exhibitions and my immediate thinking is walk away, nothing to see here. If one wants a completely auto railroad then save thousands of dollars and purchase a train simulator game for ten bucks, but firstly check to see if the game is actually compatible with your computer system software. Now that would be new, a manufacturer making a system totally incompatible with existing operating systems - totally captive market (as long as the manufacturer survives to keep the market).
But I agree with you about the rapid obsilescence of anything related to the digital world.
dave wiskochil said:
Whoof. The disclaimer was right. Thick skins required in this room, as nobody gives a newbie a break.I am sorry that you do not enjoy my favorite control method for model railroads. Me? I really love fiddling with the bits and pieces, and I really enjoy the tinker factor of the garden railroads. I love the fact that I can use my programming background to teach my locomotives manners,
dave wiskochil said:The majority of the people here are polite, pleasant and quite knowledgeable. And then there are some that are impolite, unpleasant and quite knowledgeable. My advice for dealing with the latter is to listen to their advice and ignore the insults. The problem with the web is that people sometimes act rudely because we can't reach through our compters and slap them.
and give each a bit of automatic control. I hope I have not painted any methods of control with the type of hostility that is so prevalent here, as from personal experience I can tell you that it is not fun to be on the receiving end of this judgment.
dave wiskochil said:Try not to let one grumblebum spoil it. There are good folks here. Warren is the last of the true gentlemen and HJ is quite the diplomat. And Steve is a great political sparring partner. I don't "know" the others well enough yet to form an opinion but they mostly seem pleasant.
I do not wonder why the hobby is in decline. This does not seem to be a friendly place.
<<ignore the insults. The problem with the web is that people sometimes act rudely because we can’t reach through our computers and slap them.>>
Ah, yes.
Speaking thru cyberspace is a heck of a lot different than a phone call or face-to-face. Gives them bigger kahunas.
(Although TOC is about the same on tape or live, I hear. )
That’s good–I think.
<>
Huh? I’d better quit typing now…
jb
Not an insult.
Just wonderment.
Ric, go back to your batteries. As HJ said it’s LGB’s version of DCC…and that dirty word…TRACK POWER…!!
Dave W. hopefully we have not run you off. This is actually a great bunch of guys that would help you in a heartbeat. Admittedly we are a renegade bunch…a bunch that believes in tellin’ it like it is. There is a gawd awful lot of experience here that’s willing to be shared. You will get the truth backed up by experience (translated: a lot of past mistakes have been made that we will try to help you avoid). You will find that on a lot of other forums that there is a lot of butt kissing and bowing to the masters that you won’t find here. People here with a lot of experience are tired of telling manufacturers how to resolve problems only to be accused of being a “basher” or a hater of a particular manufacturer. There are a lot of deaf ears out there.
While there are a number of different views as to what a railroad should be, enjoy your the way you want. I can understand people with a computer background may want to have more computer interface with their layout than others. That’s ok. You will get used to us and we will hopefully grow on you.
There are no insults on this site, (now that a particular member limits his postings to the family forum and that other site). If one interprets that a personal insult has occurred, then one needs to go back over their original and subsequent postings and watch the disintegration in the tone of the text. Another example, on a particular brand of locomotive drive system, is an example of those with appropriate knowlege attempting to assist forum members with a problem, only to find that a member already ‘knows all the answers’. As they say, you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink!!!
If you mistakenly take this as an insult, then reread what I have written in the first paragraph. If you still think that you have been insulted, then maybe the first paragraph is pertinent to your way of thinking.
Quote: “But if you build stuff and then want to see it running, you need a layout”.
Kevin,
I totally agree, however, one does not need a fully automated railroad to see something running. I construct most of what I ‘operate’, however, my way of thinking aligns with Vic’s outlook - simple power unit and manual switch control. I even base my power supply requirements on the particular loco that I am running at the time. If a 1 amp power supply will handle the requirements then that is what I use. If I need more power then a 6 amp unit is put into service. If more required (to date no requirement) then I would use a 10 amp unit. Too many times operators have had their locomotives and power supplies fried in a derailment, or a poorly designed switch frog malfunction. I try to avoid derailments in the first instance and then limit the available amperage to what is actually needed at the time.
An outdoor environment is a hostile environment. I would think that all these automatic roads are safely tucked away inside, out of the weather. A manual operation is more of an adrenalin rush than simply programming a computer to carry out all the way tasks. The whole scenario of operation is timing. The manual road puts pressure on the operator to get the job done within a timeframe. At the cessation of an operating period the operator feels like he has actually achieved something.Tim,
I am switching from track power to battery, but it is a slow change, I’m in no hurry. Besides, I have friends come over from time to time who still haven’t seen the light. I have come under the evil influence of TOC, and others of his ilk.
For track power, I use an Aristo Ultima that provides 10 amps. They recommend a 10 amp fast blow fuse to protect the locomotives in the case of a derailment. I’ve gone them one better and use a 2 or 3 amp fast blow fuse when I am running the smaller stuff, and a 6 amp fast blow fuse when running the Aristo and USA stuff. I haven’t fried any locomotives, yet.
I’m not an electronic wizard (one of my CO’s was not sure that he wanted to trust me with a light switch) but it seems to me that in the right circumstances, a derailment could cause things to heat up mighty fast, causing the magic smoke to appear, even with a 1 amp power supply.
SteveF
Curmudgeon said:It comes across as an insult whether you intended it or not.
Not an insult. Just wonderment.
I know exactly what Dave W has in mind because I’m thinking along the same lines. It’s just that he plans to use DCC and computer while I plan to use non-DCC and a series of interlocking switches with a mechanical-electrical timer. I can build the latter myself, but maybe a computer would be simpler and more reliable.
The truth is, if he wants a layout made up of Fortuna Flyers and Snoopy cars, then so be it. He doesn’t have to ask anyone’s permission and he doesn’t have to justify his preferences. He asked a simple question and got some rather judgemental replies.