Large Scale Central

Interesting comment from Downunder

General Discussion
#61
Garrett said:
..................

True, but so did Fleischmann, Marklin et al, but when compared to the true finescale offerings, then we can see a difference, and not marketed by a toy company.

a) Yup, and cost was getting high…

b) Ditto here…gotta do something in the yard tho Vs. building and collecting stuff.

c) I could care less what others thought, that is why I got off the protobus. Just was not fun at a personal level anymore.

And have not given it up fully either, did a whole rash of proto freight cars in HO for a clinic for a local historical society, and still buy the occasional H0e model…


Garrett,

Fleischmann and Märklin have been DNS since the mid 70s prior to that I had one or two items from each. In Euro stuff there has been plenty of scale stuff from all kinds of sources. Some needed a bit of additional detailling, but at least they got the scale (uniformly) right.

c) as I found out modeling in 1:22.5 is a nice challenge, I like that.

#62
Garrett said:
Victor Smith said:
Hi Tim, my comment wasnt in regards to skilled older modelers who switch to LS and in doing so are sharing there skills from the smaller scales, your correct there, I came from HOn30 which is similar to HJs Bemo HOm, same gauge but with virtually zilch commercially available at the time, but it gave me a leg up in LS as I had to kitbash everything in my HOn30 roster, once I got used to large scale being the same only bigger, I've been trying my best to encourage other wanna be bashers as well.
Close, but H0m and HOn30 are not one and the same, H0m is Meter gauge, done with 12mm (TT) track while H0n30 was the same as H0e, 9mm (N) track. H0e represents quite closely the "30 zoll" lines that range from 750mm to 780mm, depending on what spec the "inch" was in your part of the world.

I have quite the collection of H0e and have moderated the H0e forum for nearly a decade.

For fun, check out the H0f guys in Germany…


Gee thanks for the heads up, I was under the impression thant they both were 9mm gauge! I see the cool models on Ebay now I know not to buy them… I know there was a euro version of HOn30 also using N track, so it was was it HOe was it, that explains a lot?

#63
Victor Smith said:
Did I mention that O gauge scales out to 5'? Doesnt seam to bend those guys out of shape.
No, it doesn't. "0" gauge is 1.25". The correct SCALE for "0" is 17/64ths, which the nmra decreed we couldn't have (something about more than one scale for a particular gauge). So, the nmra decreed 17/64ths did not meet their "standards", and the lock-step membership, seemingly incapable of thinking for themselves, went along, and within about a year 17/64ths was dead. However, if you model 1/4" SCALE, the GAUGE of "0" is 5'.

Many years later, the scale nazis decided we had to have the correct scale/gauge for “0”, and came up with Proto48 (1:48). All fine, scale was the same as had been, but the gauge now was close to 1-1/8", vs 1-1/4", permanently splitting the “0” gauge hobby down the middle, and making interchangeability impossible.

Maybe we should have a clinic on what scale and gauge are.

#64
Curmudgeon said:
Victor Smith said:
Did I mention that O gauge scales out to 5'? Doesnt seam to bend those guys out of shape.
...However, if you model 1/4" SCALE, the GAUGE of "0" is 5'.
That's what I was trying to say Dave :D, that O [b]gauge[/b] scales to 5'0" in 1/4" scale, and there's a bunch of people merrily running nice detailed scale models on that 5' gauge, most even have that decidely nonprototypical 3rd rail, of course the Proto 48 guys would disagree that they are all wrong, but that split demonstrates how letting something like a mere fraction of an inch can lead to all sorts of headaches, I just dont get the mindset that would lock in on something that small, its like whole notion with the 1/29 scale being "offsetting" to the purists, maybe the purists would be happier with golf instead.. ;)
#65

Vic,

Sarcasm on:

We wouldn’t have this whole mess if

a) the math curriculum would be better and/or the students would pay better attention

b) the USA would be a tad smaller, that would get rid of the WOW factor, the Jumbo shrimp, the Super Fries, the quintuplet SuperBig hamburgers and all the other “superlatives”. Pretty soon the population would shrink to “normal” size, fit into normal cars and the “energy crisis” would abate since people would use their own energy, walk, run, cycle.

Sarcasm off!

#66

“Gauge” is set.
The accepted “0” is 1.25".
“1” is now also called 45mm, or 1.777".
“Scale” is the term you want to use.
But, only in correct context.

“0” scale (or, 1:48, or 1/4") trains on “0” gauge track simulates 5’ gauge.

Gauges were 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.
When motors got small enough, it was decided to come up with “Half 0”.
“Treble 0” was proposed, never really caught on over here.

The problem with referring simply to the gauge is that then all our LS trains can be called “Number 1 Gauge Trains”.

Under your proposal, there is no 0n30, rather just more Half 0.

#67

Dave, I dont know if your comment was to me or HJ, but I agree with you. The guage is SET as you say, that is the one constant thru all this, but scale as you say is dependant on what your modeling, and can be as varied as the wind as we all know.

HJ, All I’m saying is that some not-quite-true scales like 1/29, are NOT going to go away, not with millions of dollars invested in tooling and molds, they are here to stay, just like that non-prototypical 5’ gauge O track. Good or bad, right or wrong, like it or not, its here to stay and part of the permanent scenery. :slight_smile:

I have zero problems with all the scales that exist in model railroading, its just part of the scenery, it alway has been so as long as I can remember (T,Z,N,HO,TT,S,O,G,#1,F,7/8"etc). So while I can be modeling what genericly is termed G (1/22.5) scale on 45mm track representing 3’6" gauge in that scale I can also slap down some O gauge track and call it 24" gauge (Gn24) and some HO guage track and call it 15" gauge track (Gn15) but I think I would prefer On30 track as the ties look better, if I really want to get nuts, I could slap down some N or Z track to represent Ride-On size model trains. Four different gauges, but only one scale. Dontcha just love this stuff! :wink: :lol:

#68

I saw a photo where a guy had used H0 equipment to represent 15 inch gauge ride on live steam stuff, with 1:22.5 scale people riding.

#69
Tim Brien said:
Vic, I met those same old farts when modelling 'h.o.' scale many, many years ago. In those days, they were unwilling to share information and a novice was regarded as an outsider.
Tim, thats [b]exactly[/b] the mindset I was referring to. Guys who were unpleasant, unfreindly, hostile to any outsiders or their infidel ideas (like HOn30) and secretive of ther technics, the Ungoodwill Ambassadors to the hobby.

10 years ago I went to an open house at a very well known narrow guage club here in LA that was seamingly full of these fellows, now this was an open house mind you, an open invitation to the public to come see what they were doing. The ONLY person who said hello to me was the hostess at the door, NOT ONE of the guys downstairs at the actual layout would talk to anyone they didnt already know, every member was “too busy” doing something even when they were just standing there, so no questions answered, any asked were treated as a nuisance, no one was available to answer anything and it was a decidely unfreindly affair, I had to ask myself why the hell did they bother to have the open house?

Now contrast that with the Del Oro Pacific group who station members stratigicly around the layout to actively engage people who came by to look, answered every question, explained the club, the scale, the trains and offered club membership forms to anyone who was interested! It was a World of difference, I knew LS was were I wanted to be.

#70
Victor Smith said:
Dave, I dont know if your comment was to me or HJ, but I agree with you. The guage is SET as you say, that is the one constant thru all this, but scale as you say is dependant on what your modeling, and can be as varied as the wind as we all know.

HJ, All I’m saying is that some not-quite-true scales like 1/29, are NOT going to go away, not with millions of dollars invested in tooling and molds, they are here to stay, just like that non-prototypical 5’ gauge O track. Good or bad, right or wrong, like it or not, its here to stay and part of the permanent scenery. :slight_smile:

I have zero problems with all the scales that exist in model railroading, its just part of the scenery, it alway has been so as long as I can remember (T,Z,N,HO,TT,S,O,G,#1,F,7/8"etc). So while I can be modeling what genericly is termed G (1/22.5) scale on 45mm track representing 3’6" gauge in that scale I can also slap down some O gauge track and call it 24" gauge (Gn24) and some HO guage track and call it 15" gauge track (Gn15) but I think I would prefer On30 track as the ties look better, if I really want to get nuts, I could slap down some N or Z track to represent Ride-On size model trains. Four different gauges, but only one scale. Dontcha just love this stuff! :wink: :lol:


Vic,

Most of the time I don’t care anymore what the fuzzz they want to call things, most of the time they screw it up even with a new designation. Seems to me that some “experts” can’t remember basic math and are quite happy to mix apples, oranges, pears etc. Makes a nice fruit salad for those nutcakes, but plays hell when applied in model railroading.

PS I don’t believe Dave addressed me. :wink: :slight_smile: :wink:

#71
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
Hehehe Jack! You have such a wonderfully selective memory, it is astounding. :lol: :lol:

My point, all along, has been that LS doesn’t preclude good modeling and good models. Even if one has to bash this, that and the next thing. Or one more step along the way, scratch build the stuff.
As far as LGB is concerned; “Don’t try to sell me a TOY as a model!” Simple isn’t it?!?

“So it goes” Kurt Vonnegut


Hmmm. Or, maybe manufacturers who claim on their website something is 1:22.5, a magazine reviews it as close to 1:29, another at 1:22.5, and said manufacturer gets their panties in a wad over the 1:22.5 review, and have absolutely NO idea their website actually says that.

You tell me you are making a model of something, I want to know the prototype and the scale.
You mis-represent either, I don’t buy that product.

#72
Curmudgeon said:
You tell me you are making a model of something, I want to know the prototype and the scale. You mis-represent either, I don't buy that product.
And you'll never fully know how happy that makes me and the rest of us LGB buyers! We never want you on our side. Bachmann taught us that lesson.
#73

Huh?..yeah, like TOC had anything to do with B’manns bad engineering practices…he just discovered it after the fact and bothered to point it out and oh, how to fix it, several times…instead of happily swallowing whatever Surfer Joe goofiness another ex-well known manufacturer threw at us…Sheesh!

#74

Steve, just for you -

(http://www.lscdata.com/users/tim_brien/_forumfiles/zzzzzzzzzDSCa.jpg)

(http://www.lscdata.com/users/tim_brien/_forumfiles/zzzzzzzzzDSCb.jpg)

#75
Jack Barton said:
Curmudgeon said:
You tell me you are making a model of something, I want to know the prototype and the scale. You mis-represent either, I don't buy that product.
And you'll never fully know how happy that makes me and the rest of us LGB buyers! We never want you on our side. Bachmann taught us that lesson.
I am continually amazed at your absolute cluelessness.

I won’t even try to explain it to you, as I am certain you would become even more confused!

#76

Dave,

There’s a simple explanation for Jack “The Ventilator” Barton’s cluelessness; it’s called the Bliss Factor. :wink: :slight_smile: That, along with some other “fine” traits, got him this far, why change now? :slight_smile: :smiley: :lol:

#77
Curmudgeon said:
You tell me you are making a model of something, I want to know the prototype and the scale. You mis-represent either, I don't buy that product.
You think this is bad now.....hehehe.

Let us take a look at some older brass offerings in “finescale” here at the house…

I have a Gem PRR N8 that is…well…arhgh…cough.

Moving on to the Alco-Samhongsa PRR R50B I bought and painted for my father, a wonderful model, until you hit it with a scale rule or put it next to the new plastic ones and it is…huge.

My H0n3 Kidder Porter and Bell mogul, a lovely little model in 4mm to the foot, not 3.5…

Now, if it is a catalog loco, fine. No problem there, even if it is vaporware, if it follows practice, is to scale and would have been possible. Honestly, sometimes that is more difficult than duplicating something that existed.

#78
Garrett said:
Curmudgeon said:
You tell me you are making a model of something, I want to know the prototype and the scale. You mis-represent either, I don't buy that product.
You think this is bad now.....hehehe.

Let us take a look at some older brass offerings in “finescale” here at the house…

I have a Gem PRR N8 that is…well…arhgh…cough.

Moving on to the Alco-Samhongsa PRR R50B I bought and painted for my father, a wonderful model, until you hit it with a scale rule or put it next to the new plastic ones and it is…huge.

My H0n3 Kidder Porter and Bell mogul, a lovely little model in 4mm to the foot, not 3.5…

Now, if it is a catalog loco, fine. No problem there, even if it is vaporware, if it follows practice, is to scale and would have been possible. Honestly, sometimes that is more difficult than duplicating something that existed.


True.
And, fortunately, old MR reviews often stated that.
Current regime tends to not do that so much.
BTW, GEM has 3 letters…like some LS outfits…never trust GEM to be proper.
Either the adherence to prototype is way off, or they won’t run (lots of experience there).
The older units which required bigger motors had hood widths that were too wide.
Can you say Athearn?
My favorite manufacturer had some foibles, mostly due to the need for big screw-in headlamps, and REALLY big K&D open-frame motors, which was all available when they were built.
They were pretty good models, except for the SP P-13, I think it was, that used a mix of K4s and NYC Hudson parts for the chassis, and ended up 17/64ths scale, but we knew that.
The only fix is to vote with your wallet, not to buy stuff that isn’t acceptable.
I don’t.

#79
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
it's called the Bliss Factor.
Finally! HJ gets it! I enjoy my TOY trains whenever handle them, run them or even look at them in the catalog. I always thought that "BLISS" was what this hobby was all about.

I guess for some it’s about the “dis” and “bitch” and that’s a shame.

#80
Jack Barton said:
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
it's called the Bliss Factor.
Finally! HJ gets it! I enjoy my TOY trains whenever handle them, run them or even look at them in the catalog. I always thought that "BLISS" was what this hobby was all about.

I guess for some it’s about the “dis” and “bitch” and that’s a shame.


Well Jack, I have some News for you The Bliss Factor is directly proportional to the “IgQ” as in 1:1 full size (IgQ stands for Ignorance Quotient). Since your Bliss Factor is - according to your statement - at the very upper limit … well I guess your IgQ is in the same rarefied region. That’s what one would surmise from your statements, but it is always nice to have a firm acknowledgement. :wink: :confused:

“So it goes” Kurt Vonnegut