Well said, Kevin.
I guess Mr. Wettenschwiler would put John Allen in his “. . . know nothing . . .” classification based on John’s dinosaur ‘locomotive’ alone.
Model RRing, and in fact all forms of all hobbies are supposed to be fun. That is one of the basic tenants of a hobby. Too bad there are a (thankfully small) group of folks who think what they believe or do is somehow superior to the rest of us unenlightened masses. And that boorish behavior is especially evident when they try to show that superiority by putting the interests and efforts of others down with derisive commentary.
I have a single rule for anyone visiting here: If you don’t like what you see, avert your eyes.
A similar rule when I am fortunate to be the visitor elsewhere: It is my host’s railroad. That means whatever they have done or are doing is really to be appreciated. The friendship and fellowship are much more important than some minor difference in track gauge or color of something.
Happy RRing,
Jerry
Well Said, Jerry.
Are any of you, really having fun yet ?
I’m having fun, just watching what is put up on this forum, and operating my pike with the equipment that suits me. I do not model any prototype, so what I like goes. But, I do try to stay with one scale, and one type of equipment, in order to satisfy my own “Obsession …!!!”
Here with the OVGRS we operate a different scale each week, but do not mix the “Style” of equipment, although the guys that like the “Standard Gauge” operation have been know to use any equipment they have, and don’t care what the scale or the style is.
The “Narrow Gauge” operation is my area of enjoyment, and I try to use only equipment that has a NG look to it, and is 1:22.5 or in some cases 1:24. The locos are all steam profile.
So all the guys here get along very well and enjoy the best of all worlds.
Keep at it, guys. Looking good, even the “atta boy” comments. 
BTW there is another analogy for that “toy/model” definition, but I save that one for later. :lol: :lol:
Kevin, I agree, thats what my initial post said, if your running either 1/20.3, 1/22.5 or 1/29 or 1/32, as long as your consist looks correct to you, whats the big deal? In any scale or gauge, what you do in model railroading is a subject of individual choice, not something to be imposed by a few 'know it alls" who shall educate the “know nothings” .
I get what Burt says about mixing stock, but I doubt there are many in O gauge who would run Marx tinplate with Lionel proto scale equipement, but I could be mistaken there. But I’m slightly gruffed by the implication that somehow freelancing a non-prototypical model railway is “wrong” in some way, and that only those who model only strict prototypical sources are “model railroading” and that those like me who have created fictional railroads, somehow “know nothing” as a result? If I’m reading it right, a tad insulting isnt it?
In the course of planning my fictional layout I have studied not just one, but several narrow gauge lines, real and fictional from other scales and modelers, each was an education in itself and each will have a contribution to my own creation. I think my own railroad will be richer in its own right for that research. If I adhered to Koester’s viewpoint, I wouldnt even be able to model in large scale, as I dont have anywhere near the room for anything close to prototypical space planning, and for what? so I can only model one part of one railroad? only one roster? How limiting, for me.
I remember his “indoor large scale layout”… it wasn’t that great IMHO, it was made of 5 or 6 modular 2’ x 8’ panels, spread out all over the place, and had maybe 5 turnouts, but it did rigorously follow the prototype it was based on!
This “if it ain’t Proto, its shee-ight” attitude is a major reason why I hung up my HO model RRing over a decade ago, I just sure hope as these old guys from the smaller gauges as they get older and cant work in the smaller gauges and progress to large scale, dont bring these old prejudices with them.
Vic,
It’s not “shee-ight”, it’s “Don’t try to sell me this shee-ight is a model”. There is a world of difference.
HJ, I was speaking wholly from my past HO experiences from years ago, not anything recently in large scale. It all depends on your POV, especially if you’ve never had the pleasure of having a nice little freelanced non-prototype based model of a locomotive verbally dismissed then openily disparaged by someone who couldnt accept the fact that it wasn’t a model of any known prototype engine or any prototypical rail line and that the chosen gauge was somehow “impure” (HOn30? on N gauge track ? Oh the shame! ), the fact that it was freelanced was enough to condemn it and myself and banish me from the holy chosen circle of “proper modelers” that dominated the local railroad scene at that time where I lived, I had offended the “prototype is king” gods and must be shunned therefore, even though this happened years ago and the old goats are now likely pushing daisies, it still kinda leaves a bad impression about the whole prototype approach thingy when that happens to you…maybe thats why I still find this whole thing a little raw for me.
Victor Smith said:Vic, That's the topic that originally set Herr Mueller and I keyboard to keyboard! It was later that he changed the butt of his abuse to LGB. That's the whole point of large gauge, just sit back and enjoy them! (or go back to H0 and leave us alone)
I just sure hope as these old guys from the smaller gauges as they get older and cant work in the smaller gauges and progress to large scale, don't bring these old prejudices with them.
Jack Barton said:Hehehe Jack! You have such a wonderfully selective memory, it is astounding. :lol: :lol:Victor Smith said:Vic, That's the topic that originally set Herr Mueller and I keyboard to keyboard! It was later that he changed the butt of his abuse to LGB. That's the whole point of large gauge, just sit back and enjoy them! (or go back to H0 and leave us alone)
I just sure hope as these old guys from the smaller gauges as they get older and cant work in the smaller gauges and progress to large scale, don't bring these old prejudices with them.
My point, all along, has been that LS doesn’t preclude good modeling and good models. Even if one has to bash this, that and the next thing. Or one more step along the way, scratch build the stuff.
As far as LGB is concerned; “Don’t try to sell me a TOY as a model!” Simple isn’t it?!?
“So it goes” Kurt Vonnegut
Jack Barton said:My point wasnt so much that large scale should be completely laize-faire, but that when the aging generation of N HO and O scale zealots, and I'm talking about the types who are dismissive of anything outside of thier own particular speciality, reach into large scale as they cannot work in smaller scales anymore, that they dont bring their old school narrow approachs to what so far has been a rather open minded hobby. This is mostly for their own sakes.Victor Smith said:Vic, That's the topic that originally set Herr Mueller and I keyboard to keyboard! It was later that he changed the butt of his abuse to LGB. That's the whole point of large gauge, just sit back and enjoy them! (or go back to H0 and leave us alone)
I just sure hope as these old guys from the smaller gauges as they get older and cant work in the smaller gauges and progress to large scale, don't bring these old prejudices with them.
This is best observed in the comment of the OP where the notion that if someone is going to be so appalled at a non-correct 1/29 scale locomotive that they will skip LS altogether. Now my opinion is just my opinion but jeez! if someones going to be that bent out of shape and put off by what in reality is a minor compromise to getting a highly detailed model locomotive, something that in reality is barely noticable in operation, in a scale thats already very well established and is not going away no matter how much they decry it, then maybe it would be better for there own blood pressure if they should take up fishing instead? I’m all for scale and fidelity if you can convince manufactures to produce it, but outside of Accucraft, MTH and a couple other small mfrs, unless your willing to scratchbuild everything, I doubt theres much that will please them when they come looking at LS.
Did I mention that O gauge scales out to 5’? Doesnt seam to bend those guys out of shape.
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:Jack Barton said:Hehehe Jack! You have such a wonderfully selective memory, it is astounding. :lol: :lol:Victor Smith said:Vic, That's the topic that originally set Herr Mueller and I keyboard to keyboard! It was later that he changed the butt of his abuse to LGB. That's the whole point of large gauge, just sit back and enjoy them! (or go back to H0 and leave us alone)
I just sure hope as these old guys from the smaller gauges as they get older and cant work in the smaller gauges and progress to large scale, don't bring these old prejudices with them.My point, all along, has been that LS doesn’t preclude good modeling and good models. Even if one has to bash this, that and the next thing. Or one more step along the way, scratch build the stuff.
As far as LGB is concerned; “Don’t try to sell me a TOY as a model!” Simple isn’t it?!?
But Lehmann were a toy company and never pretended to be more? Many in Europe in H0 view Marklin in the same guise…
Why did you leave Bemo H0m? They are a model company selling some wonderful models, but I know why I got out.
We can compare our respective reasons…
Garrett said:Hans-Joerg Mueller said:Jack Barton said:Hehehe Jack! You have such a wonderfully selective memory, it is astounding. :lol: :lol:
Vic, That's the topic that originally set Herr Mueller and I keyboard to keyboard! It was later that he changed the butt of his abuse to LGB. That's the whole point of large gauge, just sit back and enjoy them! (or go back to H0 and leave us alone)My point, all along, has been that LS doesn’t preclude good modeling and good models. Even if one has to bash this, that and the next thing. Or one more step along the way, scratch build the stuff.
As far as LGB is concerned; “Don’t try to sell me a TOY as a model!” Simple isn’t it?!?
But Lehmann were a toy company and never pretended to be more? Many in Europe in H0 view Marklin in the same guise…Why did you leave Bemo H0m? They are a model company selling some wonderful models, but I know why I got out.
We can compare our respective reasons…
Ahhhh but LGB always advertised their “modeltrains” ( I quoted the pertinent sentences so often,you have to look them up yourself in the LGB catalogues)
So how did I end up in LS?
a) the been there done that factor in HOm
b) bought a house in the Okanagan which doesn’t have a basement … but a very suitable garden along with a very suitable climate to build a model railway in the garden.
c) the comment by my ProtoMod friend “You must be kidding, you are going to play with toys in the garden?!?” To which I replied: “No, I’m going to build selective sections of the RhB in 1:22.5 scale running in the garden. Just like the HOm layout, with a bit of licence.”
And it’s getting there, it’s getting there.
BTW I’m still in HOm just not in the obsessive fashion I used to be, I even built a staging yard for our display layout using PECO track components instead of handlaying everything. 
Vic,
(Quote:) "Victor Smith wrote:
I just sure hope as these old guys from the smaller gauges as they get older and cant work in the smaller gauges and progress to large scale, don’t bring these old prejudices with them.’ (unquote)
Vic,
it is not predjudice, but experience that us ‘old folks’ bring to largescale. I shudder when I see some of the ‘newbie’ questions asked on several forum sites. I see largescale as an ‘engineering’ scale and not as an extension of smaller scale/gauges. We have newcomers to the hobby who have spent no time at all in smaller scales and have absolutely no knowledge of the basics of electrics, board construction, track laying principles, soldering, problem solving. Those that do ‘have the knowledge’ are criticised for being old curmudgeons. Forums would not exist without the friendly support of the experienced modellor.
I feel that largescalers should have served their time in smaller scales to appreciate the complexity of working in largescale. I actually progressed from years building 'h.o.' scale indigenous local model trains to American 'N' scale to largescale. Along the way, I did pick up a little information from those cantankerous old bast***s that modelled in my scale at the time. However, gleaning information was like extracting teeth. There were not the forum sites of today to help the novice. It was a case of learn for yourself. visit libraries and read whatever information was available. I did not have the money to purchase the well-known American railroad magazines and so relied on my ingenuity.
Today's 'newbie' simply types in question after question and in many cases, repeats the question, repeatedly, because the response from those who know the answer, is not forthcoming quikly enough, in his impatient timeframe. In my 1700 odd postings on another site, there was only two times that I actually asked for help. The remaining postings dealt with giving either an opinion or assistance. While I understand the spirit of your posting, I disagree with the content, as it debases those who actually keep the hobby going, by freely giving of their time and experience. Your comment is aimed squarely at the reviled and hated 'rivet counter', but its broad scope draws in those who actually enjoy their modelling and wish to share their experience with others.Hi Tim, my comment wasnt in regards to skilled older modelers who switch to LS and in doing so are sharing there skills from the smaller scales, your correct there, I came from HOn30 which is similar to HJs Bemo HOm, same gauge but with virtually zilch commercially available at the time, but it gave me a leg up in LS as I had to kitbash everything in my HOn30 roster, once I got used to large scale being the same only bigger, I’ve been trying my best to encourage other wanna be bashers as well.
My comments were directly in relationship to some of the old farts I have encountered in the past who cant stand anything outside of their narrowly defined model rialroad universe and are verbally abusive letting you know that.
So yeah maybe I rolled a bit off center of the highway in my rant, but I think most people get what I mean.
Vic,
I met those same old farts when modelling ‘h.o.’ scale many, many years ago. In those days, they were unwilling to share information and a novice was regarded as an outsider. I suppose that it is really a mindset and would not matter what scale they were working in. In my previous posting the comment on passing on information was like trying to extract teeth. The internet has certainly enabled novices to get information without having to face the dreaded demons, personally.
Victor Smith said:Close, but H0m and HOn30 are not one and the same, H0m is Meter gauge, done with 12mm (TT) track while H0n30 was the same as H0e, 9mm (N) track. H0e represents quite closely the "30 zoll" lines that range from 750mm to 780mm, depending on what spec the "inch" was in your part of the world.
Hi Tim, my comment wasnt in regards to skilled older modelers who switch to LS and in doing so are sharing there skills from the smaller scales, your correct there, I came from HOn30 which is similar to HJs Bemo HOm, same gauge but with virtually zilch commercially available at the time, but it gave me a leg up in LS as I had to kitbash everything in my HOn30 roster, once I got used to large scale being the same only bigger, I've been trying my best to encourage other wanna be bashers as well.
I have quite the collection of H0e and have moderated the H0e forum for nearly a decade.
For fun, check out the H0f guys in Germany…
There is a certain amount of fun of the “let her rip” factor, why I play with a friend’s collection of prewar tinplate and we dig out the LGB on the back deck.
There is something to be said for the finescale end of of model railroading too, been there, done that, got the models sitting gathering dust in the boxes, some with their respective awards.
And another thing, the true “proto police” that I have run into in my past years were all 20-45 in age…never ran into what is listed here?
The Olde Pharts could care less either way, most were building what amounted to be tinplate layouts with scale models if you really stepped back and looked at how they were built.
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
Ahhhh but LGB always advertised their "modeltrains" ( I quoted the pertinent sentences so often,you have to look them up yourself in the LGB catalogues)So how did I end up in LS?
a) the been there done that factor in HOm
b) bought a house in the Okanagan which doesn’t have a basement … but a very suitable garden along with a very suitable climate to build a model railway in the garden.
c) the comment by my ProtoMod friend “You must be kidding, you are going to play with toys in the garden?!?” To which I replied: “No, I’m going to build selective sections of the RhB in 1:22.5 scale running in the garden. Just like the HOm layout, with a bit of licence.”
And it’s getting there, it’s getting there.
BTW I’m still in HOm just not in the obsessive fashion I used to be, I even built a staging yard for our display layout using PECO track components instead of handlaying everything.
True, but so did Fleischmann, Marklin et al, but when compared to the true finescale offerings, then we can see a difference, and not marketed by a toy company.
a) Yup, and cost was getting high…
b) Ditto here…gotta do something in the yard tho Vs. building and collecting stuff.
c) I could care less what others thought, that is why I got off the protobus. Just was not fun at a personal level anymore.
And have not given it up fully either, did a whole rash of proto freight cars in HO for a clinic for a local historical society, and still buy the occasional H0e model…
All,
I have spent many hours explaining the difference between scale and gauge to new modelers. It seems to be easier in the smaller scales/gauges than here in the large scale. I find in interesting how vehement the discussions can be, however I can remember a time when On2 had virtually no commercial support.
I began my interest in model railroading in the early ‘70’s, shortly after LGB began importing to the US, when all their offerings were European prototype. Even then, my interest was in narrow gauge, particularly 3’. I did the math back then to scale the 45mm track to 3’, or 1:20.3. Over the decades of this hobby scale and gauges have cone and gone. I look at the NMRA standards and wonder who models some of those gauges/scales listed. Many of the smaller off gauges came into being so modelers could use readily available track from another scale (eg. HO track with O scale equipment).
A comment was made earlier about compromise in 1:29. How about O scale/gauge. American standard gauge is 56 1/2". O scale is 1:48. 56 1/2" divided by 48 equals 1.177" not the 1.25 listed in the NMRA standards. I have no doubt in my mind that issues/faults can be found everywhere if one wants to look for them. I am only recently returning to this great hobby after a long hiatus, and was thrilled at the vendors in a scale (1:20.3) that was only in my mind thirty years ago.
I believe all of us modelers who run on 45mm track can and should find compromise.
My two cents worth.
Bob