Still and all, the first correction that must be made is the back to back measurement of the wheel set. If that is not correct, the rest of the corrections are just whistling in the wind.
Steve Featherkile said:
Still and all, the first correction that must be made is the back to back measurement of the wheel set. If that is not correct, the rest of the corrections are just whistling in the wind.
Very true Steve. Most wheels here were within tolerance but one or two were not! The CME soon got that fixed.
Cute Joe, except you stole the last picture is from my web site:
http://www.elmassian.com/images/stories/track/guardshim.jpg
Joe, you took that picture from my site, you can even see the concrete backer board under the switch, plus you failed to rename file.
All of where stuff is can be proved by using the Internet wayback machine.
So Todd, are you thanking Joe for stealing my picture from my site and saying it is his?
Funny since your point is that glue does not work on the switches, but my picture clearly shows white styrene glued to the black plastic.
Patent pending.
But the glue is really not a great long term solution, and the styrene is soft. I made this mod to just see if I could get the plastic to conform.
The brass shim that springs out in the center actually caused some issues, extra drag on the flange was not a good idea.
By pre-bending the brass in the middle “backwards”, I was able to get the brass shim to conform pretty well.
But there is still an issue with this method, you need to realize that on Aristo turnouts, the guard rail is lower than the main stock rail, so making the shim flush with the guard rail does not work perfectly. What works better is creating the shim so it’s top is even with the stock rail top.
Even then you are not done, because this causes more pressure on the shim with the back of the wheel hitting it and since it’s not firmly fixed in place, it can rock up.
Ted Doskaris has a vignette on my site with extensive work on the switch, read to the end to see his stainless steel shims:
http://www.elmassian.com/trains/track-aamp-switches/aristo-track/aristo-wr-turnout-vignette
Greg
Greg Elmassian said:
So Todd, are you thanking Joe for stealing my picture from my site and saying it is his?
Funny since your point is that glue does not work on the switches, but my picture clearly shows white styrene glued to the black plastic.
Patent pending.
But the glue is really not a great long term solution, and the styrene is soft. I made this mod to just see if I could get the plastic to conform.
The brass shim that springs out in the center actually caused some issues, extra drag on the flange was not a good idea.
By pre-bending the brass in the middle “backwards”, I was able to get the brass shim to conform pretty well.
But there is still an issue with this method, you need to realize that on Aristo turnouts, the guard rail is lower than the main stock rail, so making the shim flush with the guard rail does not work perfectly. What works better is creating the shim so it’s top is even with the stock rail top.
Even then you are not done, because this causes more pressure on the shim with the back of the wheel hitting it and since it’s not firmly fixed in place, it can rock up.
Greg
No, I am thanking Joe for showing the difference.
Looking at the two methods is like looking at the difference between a car that uses a solid mount suspension and a car that uses leaf springs to control the movement. Tell me how many cars use a solid mounted rear axle with no suspension, as opposed to a leaf spring?
Again, you are putting words in peoples mouths. It was George Schreyer who noted the difficulties using adhesives. As you yourself note, the glue is not a long term solution. Furthermore, the glue is “permanent” and the bent brass can be put on and removed in seconds if necessary.
A bit of drag is to be expected and in fact desirable because it shows that the wheel is pinned in place. If you are experiencing excessive drag, it is because you are using a strip of brass that is too thick. Try a thinner piece. Your bending the brass in the center is a band aid, but certainly can also work and is quick and easy.
On my three Aristo turnouts, the brass sticks higher than the guard rails. The concept is the same and you have to play with the cards you are dealt. Deal with it.
Again, if your wheels are “rocking the shim up,” it is because the brass is not the right fit or in the way you are bending it.
And speaking of stealing pictures, I never recall you asking me if you could use my picture of the tool to put the ties on the track while the track is still in place on the ground on you web site.
Additionally, Joe never said the picture was his! Quoting Joe, “I also have a picture of the Bob Polis or George Schreyer modification. It’s similar to your idea but as was said, glues just don’t stick to a plastic guard rail.” All he said was that he has a picture and never claimed ownership of the picture or that he took it.
I just don’t know where you come up with this ---- and your continued claims show your immaturity.
Page 4 and still ticking. It is highly entertaining! Not one suggestion on how to fix it reliably once and for all; a lot of “this should do it”.
Now I have a question: if you would build your own turnouts which standards would you apply or would you just take XYZ product, copy it and hope for the best?
I’ve read it often enough on here “we don’t need no stinking standards”(paraphrasing) i.e. standards are just a pain. Unless you know what it’s supposed to be, how can you possibly complain about it not being right? Goes for wheels, track and umpteen other items used/in use on garden railways.
Greg,
You REALLY are being an A-hole. I never claimed the picture of the glued on shim was mine. Are you looking for credit? How childish. Also, I never tried to glue it on. George Schreyer said it doesn’t stick too good. The wrap around shim is working well, drag is minimal, and it works fine for me on that particular switch.That’s ALL that matters. I’m a happy camper. Apparently, you are not happy.
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
Now I have a question: if you would build your own turnouts which standards would you apply or would you just take XYZ product, copy it and hope for the best?
I would avoid all the BS with the points and build stub switches. Actually did build one just to say I could. Never did use it for anything though - frog is too tight (too small a number).
EDIT - @Joe - Proper web etiquette is to link to, or imbed existing photos in-place. Credit would be nice, but not necessary as it will be in the photo URL. By copying it to your freight shed you are stealing. If the website has copyright notices you can be sued for infringement. At best, under the Digital Millennium code you must remove immediately when asked to by the copyright holder.
Joe, leave it be. that guy is such a valuable person, that ignoring him is the best option.
As long as this has moved from the original “How Does Aristo track maintain proper gauge?” to fixing problems with switches, I’ll throw this out.
My indoor layout uses Aristo SS track and switches and I found that the flange grooves in the frogs on two #6 switches were too deep. This never caused a derailment, but the noise when the wheel tread hit the frog was annoying. After considering possible fixes, I pulled the insulation off a length of #12 wire. I made it long enough to reach track on both ends of a switch and loosened track hold-down screws and put the ends of the “tube” under ties, then tightened the screws to keep the tube in place. The tube is only in the groove for the straight route.
The insulation tube has some springiness and trains now run through smoothly at normal speed. The tube does tend to lift the wheels and at very low speeds the cars rock quite a bit, but only at very low speeds. This does nothing to fix the problem on the diverging route, but since this switch is part of a crossover, I don’t care. Trains only go the diverging route at creepy-crawly speed so the groove depth is not an issue.
A second switch was fixed in a similar way, except for it I put a round head wood screw at each end of the switch and used those as anchor points for 4 lengths of nylon cord, the same cord that builders use in laying out batter boards. Wood screws go into the plywood under the track, not into any part of the track itself.
Both fixes have worked well for several years. I do not know how well this idea would work on diverging routes, nor do I know how one would hold the ends outdoors.
Disclaimer: I do not consider this an invention nor myself as inventor of it. I do not claim that no one else did this before me. I do attest, however, that I do not recall ever seeing a mention of this idea in text or pictures.
Sorry for all the bold print. I didn’t mean to be yelling at anyone.
Proper guard rail/flange clearance is supposed to be 0.115"(NMRA S3.2) remove the hardware imitations and the original guard rail. Fashion a new guardrail from standard rail - slim down the head towards the track center to your taste . Snug rail against stock rail, determine size of gap, remove necessary amount from foot of rail. Bend lead-ins, pre-tin stock rail and new guard rail, solder guard rail in place. Anyone who looked at my series of pictures on how I build my turnouts should know. With the proper gap anything should get through the frog, except the wheel sets that are out of gauge.
(http://www.rhb-grischun.ca/F-PIX/LSC/GuardRail01.jpg)
PS back to working on turnouts that are being switched from hand operated to Böhler drives, in anticipation of good things to come.
And of course, if all of this had been done right in the first place then none of this would be needed. But, we did not then, or now, need no stinkin’ standards!!!
Grant Kerr said:
And of course, if all of this had been done right in the first place then none of this would be needed. But, we did not then, or now, need no stinkin’ standards!!!
Grant don’t wake them up! Standards spoil the fun of tinkering, fiddling, cursing, complaining and a few other pastimes that are really enjoyable. Not to mention the possibility of depriving someone of the rights to having invented the shim.
Todd, besides making personal insults, unfortunately another thing that is not perfect about you is your memory. Do you forget the conversations we had about your track tool? You wanted to sell them and have them made, but it did not work out, and you would not make a set for me, even though I would pay?
If you look at “Joe’s picture” he has made a copy of my picture and saved it to his personal file space, when he should have just used a link to my picture. If this happened to you, you would be calling foul, instead of thanking him.
And even though he references my stolen picture as Poli/Schreyer, and he HAD to go to my site to steal it, you encourage him. It was done on purpose, not some
Anyway, your stuff is off my site, why are you still yammering?
Let’s turn off the “poor me, no one put my name next to the picture, I invented the piece of brass” and get back to the turnout issue.
Greg
Todd Brody said:
And speaking of stealing pictures, I never recall you asking me if you could use my picture of the tool to put the ties on the track while the track is still in place on the ground on you web site.
Additionally, Joe never said the picture was his! Quoting Joe, “I also have a picture of the Bob Polis or George Schreyer modification. It’s similar to your idea but as was said, glues just don’t stick to a plastic guard rail.” All he said was that he has a picture and never claimed ownership of the picture or that he took it.
I just don’t know where you come up with this ---- and your continued claims show your immaturity.
Well, it’s been about 2-months so I guess we were due.
Greg Elmassian said:
unfortunately another thing that is not perfect about you is your memory. Do you forget the conversations we had about your track tool? You wanted to sell them and have them made, but it did not work out, and you would not make a set for me, even though I would pay?
If you look at “Joe’s picture” he has made a copy of my picture and saved it to his personal file space, when he should have just used a link to my picture. If this happened to you, you would be calling foul, instead of thanking him.
And even though he references my stolen picture as Poli/Schreyer, and he HAD to go to my site to steal it, you encourage him. It was done on purpose, not some
Anyway, your stuff is off my site, why are you still yammering?
Let’s turn off the “poor me, no one put my name next to the picture, I invented the piece of brass” and get back to the turnout issue.
Greg
Excuse me? I never recall you asking me to make you a set for pay. Please produce evidence to this effect from your “way back machine.”
I never made anyone a set for pay. I was looking into a patent and going to have them manufactured, but the Chinese garbage that they sent me would not pass my inspection and KD Tools would not sell be the snap ring pliers unless I agreed to carry their entire line of tools. (Can you imagine in this day and age where a tool manufacture will not sell you 500-1,000 pieces of the same tool unless you carry their entire line or go through their retail distributor? Crazy!)
Anyway, when I saw the writing on the wall, I did post pictures on-line explaining what was necessary and how to make the tool for any and all to see.
In your mind, just because I wouldn’t personally make you one (if that is the case) means that you get to deny me the credit for its invention even though you know full well where you took it from?
I have no problem when people use pictures of my railroad, or my inventions for the railroad or elsewhere, when credit is given, assuming they know where that picture or idea came from. You knew full well.
As for encouraging Joe, I did no such thing with the idea that the picture was from your site. I had no idea where he got the picture. I don’t look at that stuff. I encouraged him for showing the truth about the differences between the simple shim and my shim/leaf spring. Maybe you can’t handle the truth?
Now if you would stop yammering about this, and leave your snipes out of conversation, maybe it can die here.
Well, um, all the bickering aside. My Aristo wide radius switches works just fine, after I sanded down the frogs even with the rail-heads, and deepened the flange-ways to 1/8th of an inch. Mine are out of the first run of stainless steel switches. I also lightly sanded back the frog point, probably not the correct term, so that the wheels have less chance of hitting it and doing bad things. I didn’t sand it back much, just made it a little less pointy.
As Steve said, “proper wheel gauge is necessary”. And by properly gauging my wheels I eliminated a lot of phantom derailments. This spring I eliminated the section of track where the gauge was too wide, and so far I have had no derailments.
Another factor is excessive flange thickness… if they are too thick, then it becomes impossible to have both gauge and back to back at the same time.
What I have usually done is thin the wheel backside on a lathe until I get the proper profile.
It’s a bit tricky some times to decide where the “thickness” is measured, due to some unusual wheel profiles, often where the fillet between the flange and the tread is exaggerated.
Greg
HJ said,
“Standards spoil the fun of tinkering, fiddling, cursing, complaining and a few other pastimes that are really enjoyable.”
Thats why I operate to a standard, so I have fun running a train without the above. 