Large Scale Central

How does Aristo track maintain proper gauge?

Greg Elmassian said:

I think the ego requirements have been telegraphed to me very accurately.

Where is your retort to not being the inventor? Give me the proof that you are the inventor of the brass guard rail shim and Bob Poli is not.

I see you have shifted the focus from you being the inventor of the brass guard rail add on to the trivial points of making some forked tools and failed to get them into production and or market them.

This is kind of like hearing you whine at regular intervals about your “super special” bracket for an alternator or something, and the problems with it. I do not think it has changed the course of history.

If you are feeling unappreciated, beating others about the head won’t fix it.

It will though, make sure that others, like me, will go to lengths to avoid anything associated with you.

Greg

Yes, we know where your ego is. If it was something I did that you hadn’t seen before, you need to belittle it so you can feel better about yourself.

Yes, I came up with the shim idea of my own accord, though there may have been others before me that used a shim in one way or another. George’s site didn’t exist at the time, at least to my knowledge, and if it did, he did not cover that until later after he saw the shim.

Also note that the other shims were “fixed” in place making their addition tedious, and when epoxied, the brass no longer has the give at the apex as the wheel goes through. Without this give, the wheel can ride up and off of the track. This doesn’t happen using the bent brass.

Also consider that if in fact other people did use this idea, previously and unbeknown to me, you can’t find it published anywhere or even mentioned other than on George’s site. And George includes no pictures of these other shims.

But George’s site became the bible of Large Scale, at least in the early days. And when people went there and saw the picture of the shim, and adopted it, even without thinking about, they were adopting MY idea. Other people picked up on it over time and never knew where it originated.

I haven’t shifted the focus on anything. It seems like if someone doesn’t want to spare with you, you think they are in agreement. Give us all a break.

But it sure sounds like you are trying to shift the focus talking about alternators and such.

I’m done with you here.

I think the shim argument has run it’s course. I could really care less who was the first to try it and I’m pretty sure no one else does either. It’s not the fix for my problem - I’m using body mounted couplers and my problem occurs long before the frog point and check rails.

Stan - your suggestion did the trick, I spent several hours today grinding on two switches that my mainline runs through the diverging route. I had tried a similar fix as posted on Greg’s website, but was hesitant to remove too much material. This time I just went for it and kept grinding/fitting until an Accucraft truck would pass with ease. I now have two switches working perfectly.

What I found happening with the Accucraft wheels is that the flange would ride up the tip of the point rail then run along the gap splitting the switch. Once I removed enough material there was nothing for the flange to ride and the wheels took the proper route.

Thanks so much for your suggestion. I still would love to see pictures so I can fine tune my technique.

Next time you’re out along the line have a look at a proto switch, the points are shaped/tapered to fit into the web of the rail. Check the closer point for shape, check the far point for flow.

(http://www.rhb-grischun.ca/F-PIX/LSC/SwitchMotor01Detail01_s.jpg)

Plainer view

(http://www.rhb-grischun.ca/F-PIX/LSC/SwitchMotor02Detail01_s.jpg)

Hummm I wonder why my scratchbuilt turnouts work so good. Maybe because I keep everything in gauge, and base the point construction to the prototype by NOT grinding the stock rail as so many model train companies do. Official NP drawings so construction of the points. Notice how much of the point is ground down.

A well constructed turnout (and wheel sets in proper gauge) will operate without the use of guard rails on the frog. If the guard rails are getting worn then the gauge of something is wrong (wheels, or check gauge- distance between the stock rail and the rail of the frog)

I like that method, but it takes a lot more work than just flat grinding the point.

Another way is where the point nestles into a notch in the stock rail.

It has the advantage of not having to feather the tip of the point, but it does leave a notch in the stock rail when taking the straight through point.

(Oh, did I mention I invented the Internet?)

With stainless steel rail so hard, it would take a lot of work to shape the rail to fit the contour of the web of the stock rail, but it might lend more support to the “feathered tip”.

Another issue I have found is that some switch machines don’t keep the points firmly against the stock rail, and this will also help the flange of the wheel to “split the switch”.

Tight gauge here also does not help a bit. When the points are not “thinned” at the end “enough”, often you have tight gauge.

As usual, you look to what saves the factory money, and that might be not grinding the points as much. I can guarantee you grinding stainless is less than fun.

Regards, Greg

(Oh, did I mention I invented the Internet?)

Actually that tidbit crossed my mind as I was finishing a turnout earlier today. But then I remembered being accused of laughing at others expense, however … I had a good laugh anyway. It takes all kinds!

David Maynard said:

Tom, I agree, or disagree. :wink: :stuck_out_tongue:

So long as we do it agreeably.

Greg, I know that grinding stainless can be a lot of fun.

:slight_smile:

I built a switch with stainless rails once. When I used the same method to grind the points for an HO switch, with nickle silver rail, the smaller and softer rail disappeared so fast I was shocked. On the gauge 1 stainless switch, I ground off the foot of the sock rail, and just a little of the head of the sock rail, so my point rail could nestle up real close to the stock rail. If the point is sharp enough, then the amount of material you need to take off the head of the stock rail isn’t much. I also made sure there was only a very small gap between the start of the notch and the tip of the point. That way the wheel flange could not get behind the point and pick it.

One of the tricks the HO guys use to tune up their switches, is to file a bit off the top of the pointy end of point rail. This way there isn’t a blunt end for the wheels to pick at. The slight rounding of the top of the point allows the wheel flanges to roll onto the point easier. If you look close at prototype switches, they do the same thing. But the point DOES have to lay tight against the stock rail. Any gap between the two, invites the flange to pick the point.

The newest versions of the Aristocraft wide radius turnouts have milled points for improved performance. On the older ones it is possible that the wheels will pick the points, especially if the turnout is after a curve.

To eliminate this problem I have performed two modifications, One to the points and one to the frog.

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2895/14115146152_eb45852289_z.jpg)

Note that on the original turnout the points do not fit well into the rounded stock rail.

To more easily grind the stock rail I assemble 4 cutout disks on a single shaft providing a wider surface area for the grinding.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7305/13931539709_2496788e77_z.jpg)

First I remove the points from the turnout and grind the straight stock rail so that the upper portion of the rail is at the same recess as the lower factory milled area. For the curved stock rail I only remove the curved area of the stock rail to remove the gap. The photo below shows the stock rail before grinding the upper area.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7344/14138501073_0492f0f6cd_z.jpg)

Next I grind the points on a grinder to make the transition smoother. Both the front and rear areas of the points need some grinding.

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5581/14138256413_e2926d59ed_z.jpg)

Once the points are done I reassemble the points.

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7036/13931552269_823efdb1a8_z.jpg)

The gap in the guard rail is way too wide. One option is to replace it. Instead I update the point of the frog to make the frog a load bearing frog. To test it I use a truck where one axle is set for a back to back of 1.5” and one set and the other set to 1.6” representing the minimum and maximum back to back of product in the field.

This requires that the tip of the point be filled back slightly.

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2937/13931566690_eabbdb8d9f_z.jpg)

Using an average flange debth I fill in the bottom of the frog so that the flange rolls on the bottom of the frog and then than ad a ramp on the top of the frog so that small flanges to not hit the end of the point

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7190/14138257213_4499118722_z.jpg)

All in all the mods take well less than an hour to perform.

Stan

Thank you Stan. Your work on the stock rail is much nicer looking than mine, but I achieve the same result. I did the point quite a bit differently, but so far, so good. I’m finding that with the replacement frogs I’m not having any issues with the frog or guard rails. The shims I had added were too thick causing binding, so I removed them and all seems OK.

I think the stock rail mod simulates what is called a “simpson joint” switch, some advantages and disadvantages, but normally the notch is squared off so that the point fits neatly into the recess.

The other term for the frog is “flange bearing”, and works OK if all your flanges are the same depth, if not, then you will get wheels dropping into the frog or bumping up in the air, depending on their deviation from the “frog depth” you have defined with you extra goo.

I think it would be hard to put some goo in there and get it consistent from frog to frog.

Also for this to work consistently, I would think you would have to use Bob Polis’ brass shim to narrow the flangeway to control the wheel, but maybe you took care of that by cutting the point of frog back.

Greg

Greg Elmassian said:

Also for this to work consistently, I would think you would have to use Bob Polis’ brass shim to narrow the flangeway to control the wheel, but maybe you took care of that by cutting the point of frog back.

Greg

Hey Greg, How about a picture of Bob Polis modification so we can all see what you are talking about. :wink:

How much detail is needed for a simple strip of brass wrapped around the ends of the guardrail?

I tried contacting Bob, but got a reply from his lawyer about suing someone for patent infringment :slight_smile:

Greg Elmassian said:

How much detail is needed for a simple strip of brass wrapped around the ends of the guardrail?

I tried contacting Bob, but got a reply from his lawyer about suing someone for patent infringment :slight_smile:

Not the way he did it and you know it. His was bolted and/or epoxied somehow but I guess we’ll never know.

Boy, talk about an ego and sour grapes on your part though.

I thought it was funny, and it’s getting more comical by each post.

Have to go, now I am being sued for claiming I invented the Internet.

Greg

p.s. yes he probably was using some devious means to try to steal your invention. I’m sure we will all burn in hell for these transgressions. Oops, someone from the NSA is knocking on my door, gotta go.

Todd,

I have a LGB R1 r/h switch on my RR that causes my B’mann Davenports to hit the frog and jump so much that they sometimes derail! I contemplated what to do about it until I was reminded in this thread of your wrap around shim. I installed it last night and VIOLA! No more bumping. Thanks.

I also have a picture of the Bob Polis or George Schreyer modification. It’s similar to your idea but as was said, glues just don’t stick to a plastic guard rail.

Here is my installation…

…and here is the Polis/Schreyer mod…

*Sorry, photo removed due to a childish photo owner with superiority problems.

The mods you show Joe are something I have considered but not yet applied. Well, things are working fine here, so there was no priority for the work.

However, of the two the Brody/Shreyer version does look neater to my eyes and being made of plastic would be less wearing on the inner face of the wheel on a well trafficked line I believe. Although your method seems the more easily done.

Alan,

The problem with gluing is that glues do not work well or hold up with the type of plastic that the guard rail is made of. Brody’s wrap around is easy to install or remove, and isn’t going to wear metal wheels. The track rails are brass too and brass is much softer than metal wheels.

The whole thing acts a spring and pushes the wheel set away from the frog.

Joe Zullo said:

Todd,

I have a LGB R1 r/h switch on my RR that causes my B’mann Davenports to hit the frog and jump so much that they sometimes derail! I contemplated what to do about it until I was reminded in this thread of your wrap around shim. I installed it last night and VIOLA! No more bumping. Thanks.

I also have a picture of the Bob Polis or George Schreyer modification. It’s similar to your idea but as was said, glues just don’t stick to a plastic guard rail.

Here is my installation…

…and here is the Polis/Schreyer mod…

A BIG THANK YOU Joe!