Large Scale Central

flop stub switch?

Track and Trestles
#101

The brain is working over time and it is starting to hurt. I think I solved the stub actuator problem with a very simple yet overlooked by me option. The way you gain the mechanical advantage needed to move the rail enough is my moving the stub rail side connection of the sway bar closer to the pivot point. If I am correct when the sway bar is attached to the very end of the hinged actuator bar, via the through web linkage, and to the very end of the stub rail I will have a 1:1 advantage. But if I move half way to the pivot point on the stub rail I should get a 2:1 advantage right given the linkage is the same length in either case? Though I am not sure it really is 2:1 it will move the end of the stub rail further than the end hinged actuator bar right? Now coupled with the idea of using a longer stub rail it seems to me that making a long sway bar that allows attachment to the stub rail much closer to the pivot point will give me the mechanical advantage I need. Not to mention with the larger separation between fixed rails my hinged actuator bar will have more room to travel a greater distance.

Is this line of thinking making sense?

#102

Narrow Gauge Lover said:

I love your ties. With weathered rail that will make great track.

Not my idea. This is the brain child of Todd Brody. I am simply working it out. I didn’t think it could be done. Todd went right to task on it and came back with this design. Now I just have to figure out how to make it work.

#103

I’m curious what part of the train will actuate the flop over? Seems to me a lighter weight caboose might not be enuf, while an engine’s weight might have the potential to go premature …

Really give it some thought, you’ve just been skimming so far! (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-laughing.gif)I kid.

John

#104

John,

The flange of the lead wheel of whatever piece of equipment enters the switch first will trip it. The flange will pinch it into the web of the rail as it rides past it.

I don’t think it will require to much weight. The mechanism should work fairly easy and once the loco (or any car) flops it over there will be the clip spring like a regular flop switch to hold it in place. My original concern now presents itself again in that something needs to prevent the mechanism from forcing the equipment over instead of the equipment forcing the actuator over. Is this what your getting at? I had this original concern but it eliminated itself with the inner rail acting as a guard rail preventing the loco (or car) from being pushed over. The only thing that could give was the actuator. now that the tail ends will be farther apart this could allow the actuator to push the equipment over. But only so far before the opposite side flange on the wheels hits the rail. so it can’t push it that far. But that maybe far enough to cause and issue. If this issue arises where the actuator pushes the equipment instead of the other way around then the answer would be to introduce a guard rail at the hinge point of the actuator that will keep the equipment tracking correctly and force it to flop the switch. I will cross that bridge when it happens; between the equipment forcing it over and the flop spring acting as a helper once it reaches the break point of wanting to be on the opposite side I think it will work. And premature flopping cant happen. I mean it should happen the instant the equipment hits the actuator hinged bar. it cant happen to soon there is no such thing.

Edited: Rolling a truck through it I do believe a guard will be in order to prevent the mechanism from pushing the equipment over when engaging the hinged actuator bar. Now the thing is this only requires that the already in place guard rails be lengthened toward the stub rails far enough for the switch to get thrown. once thrown the spring will hold it in place. I think that issue is solvable.

#105

Devon, the “trick” is to have the move able rails move with the least amount of force possible. My spring switches can be pushed over by the lightest cars I run, but, on mine, the points still spring back in place once the car is past. The Grizzly Flats sightseeing cars from LGB are some of the lightest cars I have, and they can move the points on my switch, because I fiddled with them until they moved that freely.

#106

David Maynard said:
Devon, the “trick” is to have the move able rails move with the least amount of force possible. My spring switches can be pushed over by the lightest cars I run, but, on mine, the points still spring back in place once the car is past. The Grizzly Flats sightseeing cars from LGB are some of the lightest cars I have, and they can move the points on my switch, because I fiddled with them until they moved that freely.

Yep. That’s the plan. It is the reason for a hinged stub rail instead of “bending the iron” The hinged rails I made move with very little effort. As components get added so will resistance. I am already thinking on that. If happens that I start developing to much resistance then I have already thought that a light coil spring could be added between the web of the fixed rail and the sway bar that does not have enough pressure to flop it on its own but will assist the mechanism once the equipment starts the flopping. But I don’t think that will be necessary if a guard rail is extended toward the stub rail far enough that the equipment flops it then the spring like you use will assist and hold it. It only that initial flopping that will require the effort so if a guard rail can be employed to force it then I should be golden.

But I agree it will require a very freely operating system.

If this works I will be amazed. Though I think I have a solution this is still a hypothesis, it will take some seeing it work for me to call it even a theory much less a law. I am still doubtful I will pull it off. And at the end of the day this is turning into a project that is way more complicated than I orignally wanted or needed. It has turned itno a thing that just needs to be done to prove it can be done not that it should be done.(http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-surprised.gif)

#107

OK,

Shawn if your reading I think you can easily make a stub to fit your existing switch space. I moved things around and cut my switch much closer to the points and made much longer stub rails and it actually improved the switch tremendously without increasing length. I think you could very easy adapt the Aristo switch you have by cutting it where the point rails are hinged and adding the stub rails. Any way I think it can be done and keep the overall geometry of your switch.

So here is what I did.

I took off the old short hinged stub rail and cut the old fixed rails about 1 3/4 inches closer to the frog. I then made correspondingly longer stub rails. I also then lined up the stub rail so it was straight with the straight section of track. What this accomplished was a much cleaner alignment through the switch. The abrupt angles are much more refined now. And when thrown to the curve that lines up very well now also. It also eliminated the problem of picking the fixed rails there far enough apart now that this is no concern.

I also redid the bar that with attach this to the throw. Before I had a thin brass strip drilled and then taped the rail to except a machine screw. Now I did this

I took some fish hooks and cut them and threaded them. I then tapped the rail and threaded them in with super glue. I then took my trusty 1.1mm wire and threaded two inches of it. then on with the first nut the rail then another nut. Super glued the nuts carefully so as to not glue them to the rail. the rod spins freely and has a little play in it. I then threaded on the next nut for the other rail and messed with alignment until I got it where I wanted it and super glued it in place. then on went the rail and then the last nut. It works awesome. You have to leave some play in the rails so that the rod can pivot a little. I had to use a piece of music wire to hold the rod down to keep the rails flat. But I think on the next go I will cut another fish hook eye and stick it between the rails. Then a hole can be drilled into the base wood and the fish hook inserted. When it is all ballasted it will hardly be noticeable and will act as a nice guide and hold the rails down. The 1.1mm rod I think will also hook up to the Ozark’s Harp switch stand which is what I want to use for throws.

For stops I used two spikes and left them a bit high. I like this version much better.

#108

Nice progress, Devon. Thanks for sharing your ideas. I am learning a great deal from this project.

#109

Dan Hilyer said:
I am learning a great deal from this project.

Me too!!! I think I have decided that if you want to learn to do something make your first one as difficult as possible. The rest will be easy (http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-smile.gif). When I go to make normal #6 and #8 turnouts using pre-made frogs it will be a cake walk (except maybe grinding those point rails).

Thanks. Its been fun. I love making my own stuff. So much more rewarding than buying something off the shelf. At least for me. And at the end of the day it will be uniquely mine.

#110

I am staying up way to late tonight working on this. Thankfully I am on vacation this week. But here is the good news I built the hinged actuator bar. Only I tried an expriment and didn’t make it hinged but rather let the brass strip flex where it was bolted on. Now this made it act like a spring and made it stay to one side I gave it a bend and now it stays to the other side. While this is counter productive for the true flop it is an excellent discovery should I desire to make it an automatic switch that is always left (in this case). As the car rolls through it it will shove it right and once past it springs back left. Now I am be more than satisfied with this result. it would allow a continuous run albeit always in one direction. But the real goal was always to get a stub switch on a reverse loop to act automatically. Flopping would be a bonus.

I think I am going to move forward with making this just an automatic (non flopping) switch. that is the simplest to tackle and I still have a long way to go with the sway bar and attachment to the stub rail.

And it is very easy to see that this will pus cars over instead of the cars pushing the actuator. Not a real surprise there. Adding a guard rail on the actuator side will be counter productive in that it will severely limit the range of motion the actuator has. Right now it shoves it over until the flange of the opposite wheel comes in contact with its rail. Now I think I have a solution. It wont look the best but I don’t think it will look horrible either. the idea is to build a little dohicky that is attached to the inside of the rail opposite of the actuator that will use the flange of the opposite wheel to keep it shoved over. It could look somewhat like another frog point in away. More on this later.

Next step is the sway bar.

#111

You can call the “non flopping” switch a “spring switch” I believe.

Greg

#112

That’s a good name for it.

#113

How do you intend to “connect” the linkage to the hinged bar?

If this is a “hard” connection (soldered), then there needs to be flex in the linkage to take up the bend as it moves through an arc.

If the union of these two pieces is also hinged to articulate, it will twerk the position of the linkage as it goes through its motion.

If it is allowed to “free float” along the hinged rail with no actual attachment, it will maintain its geometry as the linkage slides along the hinged rail, but, when the spring flops, there is nothing to hold the hinged rail in against the stock rail and it could flop to its other position catching a wheel when the train returns if it enters from this direction.

This is why I recommented the “arched rollover” with the center retained pin (think 2-dimensional umbrella) to actuate the linkage.

Just something to consider in the final design

#114

OK I see where your heading Todd,

Here is my plan. On the hinged sway bar on both ends I am going to flatten the bar out perpendicular to the rail. Then drill a whole through it. On the hinged actuator bar side where the fixed rail is I will bring the linkage through the rail (already done) and bend it 90 degrees thread it and run it through the hole in the hinged sway bar and put a nut on it with loctite. it wont be tightened down it will allow the linkage to rotate in the whole, the nut just keeping it on. I will also do the same for the linkage to the hinged rail. Not I was simply going to drill a hole in the hinged rail and thread the linkage and then apply a nut on both sides and tighten down tight. But I see your point it will not like that as it will need to move with up and down the hinged rail as it moves.

I think a positive attachment is necessary to prevent fouls ups. And it has to move. So what about slotting the hinged rail and then adding some light brass strips on either side of the web with a hole drilled in them. Run the linkage through the holes in the thin brass and loosely but a not on either side. This would act as a slide mechanism. Even eliminating the thin brass slides may be OK allowing enough play in the linkage might work with an over sized hole in the web that is just small enough to not let the nuts pass through.

On the actuator bar side the movement is negligible and there is enough flex in the linkage and I will be useing a fairly stout sway bar that I don’t think it will effect that side. It may not even effect the hinged rail side. the linkage is a flexible wire and the sway bar will be stout music wire. The flex may be alright. I can always work in order from fixed, to a larger hole with play, to a slot with slides. In that progression I can go until it works without having to start over.

On a side note I played with a ruler and determined that at the actuator bar I have 6mm of travel, I then moved my ruler down the hinged rail measuring travel of the hinged rail to determine where it has 5mm of travel giving my self a mm of cushion. This will be my attachment point to the hinged rail. That makes the sway bar 43mm long. Using .055 music wire which is damn stiff I think will over come any tendency to flex over such a short distance.

#115

Sounds like you have it covered, and if not, can easily modify it to suit your needs.

#116

When will it be finished and placed on the layout?

#117

Your catchin on to me rooster. You asked two questions instead of your “is it done yet” you also asked when it will be on a layout, two very different things.

I am hoping it will be done soon. It likely wont make it on a layout until next winter.

#118

Devon Sinsley said:

The brain is working over time and it is starting to hurt. I think I solved the stub actuator problem with a very simple yet overlooked by me option. The way you gain the mechanical advantage needed to move the rail enough is my moving the stub rail side connection of the sway bar closer to the pivot point. If I am correct when the sway bar is attached to the very end of the hinged actuator bar, via the through web linkage, and to the very end of the stub rail I will have a 1:1 advantage. But if I move half way to the pivot point on the stub rail I should get a 2:1 advantage right given the linkage is the same length in either case? Though I am not sure it really is 2:1 it will move the end of the stub rail further than the end hinged actuator bar right? Now coupled with the idea of using a longer stub rail it seems to me that making a long sway bar that allows attachment to the stub rail much closer to the pivot point will give me the mechanical advantage I need. Not to mention with the larger separation between fixed rails my hinged actuator bar will have more room to travel a greater distance.

Is this line of thinking making sense?

Devon,

While your thinking is correct - pushing the pivoted bar/stub rail in the middle will give you twice the movement at the end; you also need twice the force. I think you are going to run into problems with dust/dirt making operation unreliable. Just running a wheel over an actuator is fine as long as the loco is heavy, but the pilot wheels may just ride over it and potentially derail. You’d be better with a tall rod (1" long?) sticking up in the air that rotates 90 deg to move the stub. Once it is pushed by the train it stays lying down and the one on the other leg pops up.

On the issue of lining up the rails - you need a small ‘stop’ on the outside end of the fixed rails that the stubs can rest against in positive alignment.

#119

What tap did you use to thread the fish hooks and at what pitch? You are cutting threads on some pretty hard metal unless you fish with cheap hooks and if that’s the case you must miss a lot of fish from setting the hook while fishing.

#120

Devon Sinsley said:
I took some fish hooks and cut them and threaded them. I then tapped the rail and threaded them in with super glue. I then took my trusty 1.1mm wire and threaded two inches of it. then on with the first nut the rail then another nut. Super glued the nuts carefully so as to not glue them to the rail. the rod spins freely and has a little play in it. I then threaded on the next nut for the other rail and messed with alignment until I got it where I wanted it and super glued it in place. then on went the rail and then the last nut. It works awesome. You have to leave some play in the rails so that the rod can pivot a little. I had to use a piece of music wire to hold the rod down to keep the rails flat. But I think on the next go I will cut another fish hook eye and stick it between the rails. Then a hole can be drilled into the base wood and the fish hook inserted.