I think part of what I don’t like is that each stick is multifunctional…and I’m using an analog type control for on/off. Bell/whistle/reverse/forward? I could understand it more if when I moved the stick more to the left it made the bell ring faster, or something like that. I just feel that I’m going to try to ring the bell and send the train in reverse. Or I’ll try to accelerate and turn momentum on without even realizing it.
Bruce Chandler said:I understand your concern. Obviously we are using an analog device to implement a discrete on/off function. But the direction controls are locked out unless the loco is stopped, so ringing the bell or sounding the whistle isn't going to cause any problems. On the RailBoss, momentum on/off is on the same stick as the throttle, but you'd have to accidentally move the stick through more than half of its travel to inadvertently turn on momentum. And if you did, not real disastrous. I have never yet had a problem of triggering the wrong function when moving the sticks.
I think part of what I don't like is that each stick is multifunctional...and I'm using an analog type control for on/off. Bell/whistle/reverse/forward? I could understand it more if when I moved the stick more to the left it made the bell ring faster, or something like that. I just feel that I'm going to try to ring the bell and send the train in reverse. Or I'll try to accelerate and turn momentum on without even realizing it.
As Kevin pointed out, one of these days, we may have the option of varying the pitch/intensity of the whistle by using the analog position on the stick. That would be cool! So don’t be in a hurry to get rid of those analog controls, you may need more of them in the future! (And I know absolutely nothing about any sound maker’s plans. Only what I’ve heard on forums).
I worked fairly closely with Phoenix on development of the new P8.
They understand how desirable a quillable whistle would be, and for that matter although it never came up, the ability to vary the bell rate.
Phoenix made no promises but did say they would be willing to consider it for the future.
Given the market competition they face from QSI, I really believe they will do something we will like.
It is from the experimenting by consumers that many good ideas do see the light of day for commercial products. So keep tinkering guys.
For info about the small E-Flite transmitter , found these pics at a web site , and wow is the internals workings small , all on that card . The sticks center to centers are 3 1/8 inch apart .
(http://www.horizonhobby.com/ProdInfo/EFL/450/EFLH1064-450.jpg)
(http://static.rcgroups.com/forums/attachments/3/6/4/2/a2920006-212-0912080009.jpg?d=1260310289)
web site http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2920006 from another site another pic http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=126623&d=1272823901 from this site http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=716140 The little green card is the receiver and ant . The shafts sticking up are digital trim mom contact switches , IF , they were out of the trim circuit they would be a lot of mom contacts sws for bells , whistles , etc … WELL NOW ARE THE GEARS TURNING IN THOUGHTS ?
Looks like all of the tan board can be located elsewhere. I’m willing to bet we could get all the appropriate items into an RCS-transmitter sized box. Something like this.
http://www.pactecenclosures.com/Plastic-Enclosures/PP-2AA.html
Just an observation, from a person that is deep into actual OPERATION, where the “Throttle” needs to be user friendly, and as small as possible.
As some of you may be aware; I started off in R/C with the old standard “Two Joystick” R/C units, that took two hands to operate. I next progressed to the Aristo, original 27Mh hand held throttle. All was much better with the Aristo unit. Then I also tried the original RCS throttle.
Now; today, I was able to test my use of an Aristo Up-to-date throttle. It is a bit larger, but you can easily operate a loco with one hand, and learn by feel to use it without watching the throttle.
Overall, my thoughts are, that the original RCS “Cigarette” package sized throttle is the winner.
Why anyone would want to revert back to the double joystick style of throttle is beyond me.
With the new Aristo “Revolution” and all it’s features, even if the throttle is a bit larger than the original Aristo one; seems to be today’s WINNER.
Please remember, that my comments do nor reflect what is in the on board receiver, or it’s features…just the actual reflection on what it’s like to operate a locomotive, in actual operations, using the hand held throttle.
My standard has always been, for the past 10 years; the Aristo 27Mh unit. It serves me very well.
Look at it this way:
After you install an R/C unit, in a loco; the only thing you are confronted with when operating said loco, is the control unit (The Throttle, in your hand).
Operation, from most people’s point of view, means to control the loco, as if it were a real one, and this means, complete control while stopping, moving backwards or forwards; speeding up, or slowing down, with the operator within 15 feet of his loco. Futher distance is not required, unless you are sitting way off where you can’t see your train in any case, and you may as well be running in circles with track power, controlled from your air
conditioned sun room !!!
The size of the hand held throttle is of great importance. It should (And needs to be, for all intents and purposes) small enough to hold in one hand, and controlled with the fingers and thumb of that same hand.
People will ask, what I’m using my other hand for…well…I like a bheer once in a while…and in true operations, we need a hand free to uncouple cars, and carry the switch list and, a pencil. We can also use the extra hand to throw switches, and retrieve crap off the track as we roll along.
As much as I know all about the new trend in real life, remote control locomotives, and the elabrate control units that the crews use to control them. I sure don’t want a shelf attached to my chest to control my model locomotives.
As much as it may be a little less expensive to buy a joystick type throttle; it sure is not a step forward in this world of high tech, from my peephole on life.
If RCS could upgrade their line to the new frequencies, that the Aristo/Crest units are using, and keep their small cigarrette sized throttle…that would be the winner hands down.
I know with all the craving for noise and smoke that some people seeme to expect; all the RCS unit needs besides the basic fast/slow/sto, and forward/reverse, in reality is a button to freely control the whistle/horn, and turn the dang blasted bell off and on.
The headlights can be directionly controlled by a diode, no need for a wasted control on the throttle.
Instead of more “Bells and whistles”; lets get back to a small hand held throttle that is up-to-date with the new frequencies, and does the job in a simple manner…just a small square box, with a few buttons…as few as possible.
In the mean time, the Revolution is in my view, the winner, from the experience I see around here, no-one, but no-one seems (Even remotely !!) interested in joysticks…
As long as no-one can afford to produce a better unit; the way everyone around here is turning, is towards the Revolution…I don’t sell the things, and am not promoting them…just telling of my observations.
The bonus that I’m hearing, is that range is not a problem any more with them either…no more attempting to use what one would expect to be a “Ground” for an antenna…
I’m fortunate that I still have a few old 27Mh systems in my supply, and never got stuck with any of the dasterdly 75Mh Aristo disasters…!!!
…so, I have no need to purchase any , for the conceivable future.
If a person wants a Revolution these days; it seems that if you shop around, there are bargins to be found…
Hi Fred.
Around here they may not be keen on the idea of stick radios. But, fortunately there are quite a few well satisfied with the “Joysticks”.
As it stands, Live Steamers, who have been using stick radios for time immemorial, are quite happy to keep using what they already have to control any battery locos they may want to add to their fleets for non steaming runs.
Unfortunately it would simply cost too much money to upgrade the RCS hand piece to 2.4 GHz.
To do so would require not only completely new hardware inside the TX case but also a new RX to go with it.
That would have cost me in excess of A$3,000 for the development costs of the TX alone. Plus an operating program, around A$2,000. Plus the costs of FCC approval.
The RX would have been about A$3,000.
A new operating program would add another A$5,000.
For an investment of A$13,000 plus official approvals I would still be behind the 8 ball when compared to the marketing clout of the Big Boys. Who can match the four full colour back page of GR ads to get the REVOLUTION show on the road?
Certainly not me.
Those above figures do not include the actual outlay of the hardware build costs. That would require even more upfront as SMD technology is best applied by computer built pcb’s. That means fairly big production runs.
I looked at that option very hard and decided that the way I am doing it will eventually provide enough cash flow for me to consider doing what this discussion is all about.
So if there are any rich philanthropists around who might like to invest what are big $$$$$ to me, I would be delighted to hear from them.
In the meantime, for those that like the smaller TX’s, I am sure Dave Goodson and Don Sweet will be delighted to supply what you might need.
I thought that the Revolution didn’t play too well with the sound cards?
Go GregEusa.
Now I wonder why that video has not been featured at the AristoCraft forum. 
For a (real) smart fella he seemed to be having lotsa trouble getting it operating.
Perhaps this is simpler to understand. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kwsE_lnu4k
Bruce;
Check in on Paul Norton’s experiences with the Revolution on the OVGRS web page…or call him for actual facts about the system. Most, in fact all of the people around here are impressed.
Bruce Chandler said:I've used it successfully with Phoenix, Sierra, Dallee, MyLocoSound, and Hyde-Out Mountain (Llagas Creek). I don't know who's propagating that rumor, but it's certainly not been my experience.
I thought that the Revolution didn't play too well with the sound cards?
Later,
K
Same around here…works well with all those noise systems…
Even I could program the Revolution, if I had to…so it isn’t very complicated, for sure !!!
I found the revolution to be extremely easy to set up once you have done it once. I also have had nothing but great luck with all the sound systems I have tried.
I presume Jon started this thread because he wanted to source information on ways he might be able to convert a stock DIGITAL PROPORTIONAL stick radio to a smaller package.
I presume he wanted to do this because he understands the desirability of smooth DIGITAL PROPORTIONAL speed control when compared to pushbuttons.
As nice as the small package of the REVOLUTION might be, the one thing it definitely does not feature is DIGITAL PROPORTIONAL speed control.
For that matter, neither do any of the other mainstream R/C systems.
AirWire comes close with a knob, but, strictly speaking that is not DP, as it uses an analogue to digital converter with a never ending rotational converter some find confusing to use.
No matter how much the REVOLUTION enthusiasts might wish it were otherwise, there are only two readily available DIGITAL PROPORTIONAL speed control systems on the USA market.
RailBoss and RCS-BELTROL.
I am a convert , I like moving the throttle LEVER [ stick ] , much like the throttle lever in a diesel or a steamer , or a electric loco , ,none of which use push buttons in real full size trains , same goes for the levers used to reverse the loco , diesel or electric , a reverser lever ,not push buttons . Just seems more natural , But thats just me .
(http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/dennispaulson/Dennis/InTrM004.jpg)
(http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/dennispaulson/Dennis/SELF5RESIZED.JPG)
one hand on the throttle…
(http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/dennispaulson/one%20hand%20on%20the%20throttle%20.JPG)
weighs less than a beer in one hand :- )
Sorry, Tony, just thread drift. (For my part, I was correcting information relative to compatibility.) Speaking as one “Revolution enthusiast,” I find pushbuttons for throttles particularly annoying (not only on the Revolution, but previous Aristo throttles and the RCS “Elite” controllers), hence my participation in this thread promoting a smaller controller that uses digital proportional controls across the board. While I can’t speak for the others, I would guess their preferences would lie along the same lines of mine, hence their participation in this thread as well. I think the “defense” of the Revolution came more in terms of countering one individual’s YouTube video implying that the system was a bit confusing.
Later,
K
Before we drift completely back to the topic, I’ll give my opinion of the TE Revolution…
I’ve had only one hands-on experience with the Revolution. It was last summer at the American Invasion. I was Engineer on Paul Norton’s train. Paul was an early beta tester and gave a lot of input to Lewis regarding fine tuning of the programming, so he probably knows the system as good or better than anyone. I’m used to push-buttons as I use the 27 MHz TE on my layout, so getting the feel for that was a snap. I did find changing direction problematic and more than once Paul had to take back the controller and do some re-programming in order for us to move to the next industry. Since I really don’t know what happened I won’t fully blame the Revolution - I may have pushed an odd sequence and changed something. Perhaps later models lock out inadvertent programming changes. I do remember thinking that I liked the way the old TE reacted to speed and direction changes better.
I’ve also never experienced Digital Proportional on a battery or track powered loco. My steamer is a little slow to react, using only the Johnson Bar, so that’s not a good test. I’ll take Tony and Del’s word that DP is better.
That being said, I really do like the idea of a stick or knob throttle. Sure I could hold a small radio like the Elite in one hand, but I want to add the ability to get sound control easily accessible with the same hand. That is, as Tony observed, my entire reason for starting this discussion.
Today between phone calls and craziness at work, I tried to sketch out switch circuits that would be equivalent to the stick potentiometer in extreme right, left or center positions for sound control. I can easily come up with a circuit for a single three position toggle, but it’s been a challenge trying to get it broken out to two push-buttons. IF I get it worked out, I’ll post a schematic. This stuff used to be easy for me. I am way out of practice.