I’m with Bob - I don’t want a four way joystick controlling 3 different things.
I sort of like the idea of a one-axis joystick controlling speed…but could be talked into a knob - as long it has stops. The latest Airwire doesn’t have stops in either direction and it drove me batty. (I know, short trip 
) Buttons/switches/toggles for everything else is OK. Push button is good for a bell.
Don’t get me wrong, I really like the idea of a super small hand held DP R/C control system. BUT, speaking from a manufacturing point of view it would be important to maximise the market potential by making any small handheld TX usable by live steamers. Switches and buttons would be completely useless for live steam.
Stuff Live Steamers will demand.
Servo Trimming. The only system that I know of that has digital trim controls is the Spektrum. Which also happens to be the most expensive. The el cheapo systems which make the cost factor doable, still use the tried and true ratchet sliders.
Servo Reversing. Another thing Live steamers need is easily accessible servo reversing. That means at least four more switches.
Model Memory. One more desirable factor is the ability to memorise servo settings for different locomotives. At present pretty much only the Spektrum DX6i does that but soon there will be lower cost TX’s with 5 model memory.
I understand why you all do not like stick radios.
Unfortunately there is no chance of changing the original RCS TX hand piece to 2.4 GHz. Not without a huge financial investment. So, I have to live with what I am doing. Sales are not brilliant but those that have taken the 2.4 GHz stick radios really like the way they work.
Superior range and easier to install because there is no need for any motor “noise” suppression or fancy antennas. The RX’s work inside metal boxes meaning you can hide the antennas inside dummy water tanks of live steamers. They even work buried INSIDE the tenders of Accucraft brass locos. Plus of course you get full Digital Proportional speed control. If that isn’t not enough to entice you, I guess I miss out.
Dave Goodson or Don Sweet will be delighted to supply the tried and true ELITE system.
Good luck Jon with your conversion. I will delighted to see it working for live steam and battery R/C to prove me wrong in my assessment.
OK, copy that. Just trying to save a little component mounting space.
I’m not sure what sounds would go on trigger 3 & 4. Perhaps coupler clank and brake squeal, both of which would normally sound at close to zero throttle.
Lewis would say we should just buy a Revo and be done with it 
Brake squeal is an automatic feature of the Phoenix sound system. The point at which they squeal is programmable.
I have a gone to a lot of trouble to make the system have four sound triggers as that is what the new Phoenix P8 has available for steam locos. It has five triggesr when configured for diesels.
I set up the sound triggers so that the most used ones, such as the whistle and bell, are on the stick NOT used for speed control. When running they cannot possibly interfere with the speed or direction controls. Direction change is locked until the speed is zero. Unless you need to speed match dissimilar locos.
I only use the L - R stick function on the throttle for sounds that are generally activated when standing still. Like coal loading or water fill.
Original post said:
[b]Throttle[/b] - Replace stick with large knob on a potentiometer Throttle Trim - Mini center-off momentary contact toggle switch (digital trim)Direction [Elevator] - Replace stick with 3 Position momentary toggle switch (center off)
Direction Trim - Mini center-off momentary contact toggle switch (digital trim) {Used for Live Steam/Servo application}Sounds 1 & 2 [Aileron] - Replace stick with 3 Position momentary toggle switch (center off)
Trim - Mini center-off momentary contact slide switch (digital trim) - Internal onlySounds 3 & 4 [Rudder] - Replace stick with 3 Position momentary toggle switch (center off)
Trim - Mini center-off momentary contact slide switch (digital trim) - Internal onlyCH 5 Programming - 2 Position toggle switch
Throttle - Replace stick with large knob on a potentiometer
Throttle Trim - Mini center-off momentary contact toggle switch (digital trim)
Direction [Elevator] - Replace stick with 3 Position momentary toggle switch (center off)
Direction Trim - Mini center-off momentary contact toggle switch (digital trim) {Used for Live Steam/Servo application}
Momentum On/Off [Aileron] - Replace stick with 3 Position momentary toggle switch (center off)
Trim - Mini center-off momentary contact slide switch (digital trim) - Internal only
Horn/Bell [Rudder] - Replace stick with 3 Position momentary toggle switch (center off) or two push-buttons
Trim - Mini center-off momentary contact slide switch (digital trim) - Internal only
The two systems are similar enough I think we can come up with a plan that would be compatible to all three systems. I’ve got some real work to do today so I’ll have to put off thinking about it until evening. I think, with thanks to everyone who has given input, I’m almost ready to do a block diagram of how the new package would lay out.
I need to have a look at Radio Shack project boxes 
Hi Jon.
Given you are considering the position from a standpoint of 3 way compatibility, the centre off momentary switch for direction change would be just fine for the direction set on battery R/C. Personally I would like the direction switch centre off but not momentary. That way you would only need to glance at the TX to see which way it was set. That might even be acceptable to Live Steamers.
All the other 4 x control functions would only need to be push buttons for my stuff. Really simple to figure out.
Don’t know what the reaction would be from Live Steamers.
I am attending a biggish Live Steam meet this weekend which will give me a good chance to pick their brains. In between them burning their fingers.
Quote:In a standard R/C transmitters, the sticks are essentially handles attached to potentiometers, giving you around 90-degrees of motion. The trim (at least on the older radios) was a mechanical fine adjustment that subtly adjusted the position of the pot relative to the stick. The digital trim Tony mentions sounds like its an electronic adjustment rather than mechanical.
... Kevin - I'm not sure I follow your statement "Even if you're just repositioning the four stick pots to horizontal, you can decrease the form factor quite a bit." What do you mean by horizontal (compared to how they are in the 2-stick) ? Could you do a rough sketch ?
So, at the most basic level, you can take those four potentiometers out of the case (and their attachments to the sticks) and position them any way you’d want to on a handset. You’d lose the ability to fine-tune with the trim, but you don’t need that in our environment. If you’ve got digital trim, which I’m assuming is done via pushbuttons or toggles, then all you need do is mount them beside the pot. It adds a little, but not much to the width. The pots themselves are typically less than 1" diameter. The knob would likely be larger.
So, what would I have?
Throttle: Obviously would be either a knob or a lever. I kinda like the lever idea, since it emulates locomotive controls the best, but a knob might be more practical.
Reverse: I’d like a lever for this, simulating the Johnson bar. This does a few things. First, it gives the live steamer the ability to finesse the position of the Johnson bar for best performance–something a simple pushbutton or toggle switch does not do. There aren’t many live steam locos in our scale where you can adjust the cut-off and still have smooth operation, but there are a few. (I actually use the Johnson bar on one of my Rubies to control the speed during switching more than I use the throttle.) For the electric mice, it gives a visual indication of which direction you’re set to move–something lacking on many handheld controllers. Also, it could be used (given a compatible sound system) to control the cadence/volume of the chuff based on the position of the Johnson bar. Dad did this years ago on one of his analog sound systems and the effect rivals any of the load-sensitive BEMF chuffs of today’s digital systems.
Whistle: Ideally, I’d like a slider or lever here. This is really for similar reasons to the Johnson bar. I’ve not heard a “quillable” whistle in the small scale live steam circles, but I haven’t heard too many of the new “resonator” whistles that have really taken over in the past few years. Similarly, the electric mice can benefit from this because sound manufacturers are reportedly working on “quillable” whistles for digital sound systems. (Again, very easy to do in the analog world.)
Bell: This can be a simple on/off switch.
The catch with on/off toggles is that the control from the transmitter doesn’t simply close a circuit the way we think of it. What it does is varies the pulse width of a control signal from .5 to 1.5 milliseconds (going from memory on the time). As such, simply replacing the pot with a switch isn’t going to have the effect you’d want it to. The switch would have to be worked into a circuit that when open would send a neutral pulse (1 millisecond), and when closed changed the pulse to either 1.5 or .5 milliseconds to trigger the sounds, change direction, whatever. If all you’re doing is changing the pulse width from 1 to either .5 or 1.5 milliseconds, then you’re inherently overriding the advantages a proportional system gives you, and you may as well stick with the other systems. The proportional throttle would still be nice, but at that point you’ve got no advantage over the controllers from Airwire or NCE.
Later,
K
Kevin - Thanks. Now I follow you. I think it may be easier to start with new potentiometers rather than try and separate the X/Y axis from the existing stick style pots.
You are also getting much deeper into the electronics than I had planned. If the sticks are potentiometers, could not I represent the potentiometers value at any point in it’s travel by using a switch connected to a resistor network? For example. It the value of the Rudder pot is Zero Ohms at full left, 300 Ohms at center and 600 ohms at Full right, I should be able to simulate any of those three positions by inserting Zero, or the appropriate resistance in the circuit, depending on switch position.
I’m going to have to start sketching out diagrams.
Damnit, now you guys have MY electronics brain working, too. Argh.
Speekee englss, pleese. Either that, or type real slow, so I can keep up.
TonyWalsham said:From a MANUFACTURING point of view, I would certainly agree with you.
Don't get me wrong, I really like the idea of a super small hand held DP R/C control system. BUT, speaking from a manufacturing point of view it would be important to maximise the market potential by making any small handheld TX usable by live steamers. Switches and buttons would be completely useless for live steam.
From a “bashing” point of view, I would disagree completely. I envision Jon, or a group of folks, getting out their razor saws and making a one-off that takes advantage of the 2.4 GHz capabilities. From THAT point of view, the steam and electric markets are TOTALLY different. For instance, the electric guy needs buttons to trigger sound functions; there’s no need for this in the steam world. I can see that the live steam guy might want the trim buttons, but I don’t see much use for them in the battery world.
I do have one live steam locomotive and one electric that I want to do; however, I would rather have a different controller for each one, rather than one controller that does everything…just not very well. There’s really no need to compromise in this case.
TonyWalsham said:
Don't get me wrong, I really like the idea of a super small hand held DP R/C control system. BUT, speaking from a manufacturing point of view it would be important to maximise the market potential by making any small handheld TX usable by live steamers. Switches and buttons would be completely useless for live steam.Stuff Live Steamers will demand.
Servo Trimming. The only system that I know of that has digital trim controls is the Spektrum. Which also happens to be the most expensive. The el cheapo systems which make the cost factor doable, still use the tried and true ratchet sliders.Servo Reversing. Another thing Live steamers need is easily accessible servo reversing. That means at least four more switches.
Model Memory. One more desirable factor is the ability to memorise servo settings for different locomotives. At present pretty much only the Spektrum DX6i does that but soon there will be lower cost TX’s with 5 model memory.
Good luck Jon with your conversion. I will delighted to see it working for live steam and battery R/C to prove me wrong in my assessment.
I missed this post that was made as I was replying to Bruce. “Copy That” was directed at him, not you.
Again - My goal is to please me, not the masses. [u]IF[/u] I can, with all this great input, come up with a DYI plan that can be implemented by those with the ability to mount large components and solder wires, then that is a big plus.
I already own the Spektrum DX5e, so the fact that it is the most expensive radio isn’t a consideration for me. The fact that it has digital trim makes it simpler to implement a new user interface since a momentary center off toggle will work. I agree that trim is a requirement, and, as per my initial channel list, will keep it on all 4 DP channels although you may need to open the case for two of them.
Servo reversing would probably be maintained as another “open the case” option - perhaps using the original slide switches.
Model memory isn’t going to happen for me. I can’t afford the high end and probably won’t buy a new low-end radio that has it when it comes out. I will need to adjust trims etc. when switching between my one live steam loco and future battery locos. I assume that if I use only one brand of ESC (Beltrol or RailBoss) in multiple models, there isn’t any trim / set-up issues when switching from model to model - only binding is required. Yes?
Bruce Chandler said:
[i][/i]I envision Jon, or a group of folks, getting out their razor saws and making a one-off that takes advantage of the 2.4 GHz capabilities. From THAT point of view, the steam and electric markets are TOTALLY different. For instance, the electric guy needs buttons to trigger sound functions; there's no need for this in the steam world. I can see that the live steam guy might want the trim buttons, but I don't see much use for them in the battery world.I do have one live steam locomotive and one electric that I want to do; however, I would rather have a different controller for each one, rather than one controller that does everything…just not very well. There’s really no need to compromise in this case.
Accommodating steam only is easy. Two DP channels with knobs or levers for Throttle & Johnson Bar. Perhaps a third DP channel for a whistle servo and a couple of two-state channels for lights and other goodies. You basically just repackage the transmitter into something more comfortable and separate the sticks.
Battery power is actually more challenging as we are all used to these nice push-button controllers.
OK - I really need to get something done at work today besides this thread - - -
I see exactly where you’re coming from on this Jon. I just hope that there’s enough information shared to allow someone to construct any version they like.
I may have to revisit your web site again and take a look at the RC install you did on your Shay. Very interesting.
This is really a great idea.
Jon Radder said:Neither the Beltrol nor the RailBoss require trim tabs. Multiple Rx's mated with either ESC can be used with the same Tx (or one model memory of a multiple memory TX). The Tx/Rx combination is calibrated by the user, with the values stored in the ESC, not in the Tx. This feature allows the use of lower cost Txs without the need for multiple model memory.
Model memory isn't going to happen for me. I can't afford the high end and probably won't buy a new low-end radio that has it when it comes out. I will need to adjust trims etc. when switching between my one live steam loco and future battery locos. I assume that if I use only one brand of ESC (Beltrol or RailBoss) in multiple models, there isn't any trim / set-up issues when switching from model to model - only binding is required. Yes?
The servo reversing switches are still needed to insure proper operation. However, since you are talking about a one-off Tx box hacked from a specific radio system for your personal use, you could just permanently wire in the proper polarity for each channel and forget the reversing switches.
I’ve made a schematic for the potentiometer/switch configurations that I would use, if I were doing this project. If you would like a copy email me . (Sorry … I don’t want to upload it to a web page just so I can post it here).
Del has summed it up pretty well.
Converting a TX to suit battery R/C is a snip. You will not need the trimmers or the servo reversing. Assuming they correctly set to start with.
The problem is going to be to make the thing work with live steam as well.
As it is just for Jon he decides what he would want.
However, if someone else wanted the same device my opinion is the majority of live steamers would at the very least insist on:
Servo reversing on the TX for Johnson bar and regulator.
Servo trimming on the TX for Johnson bar and regulator.
With no need to program it on a computer.
Enthusiastic Live Steamers would also most likely require model memory facility.
Bruce.
I understand your thinking but not your logic.
The way I read it, you are saying you would accept as appropriate, using a stick type radio for live steam?
But, not accept the stick type radio for battery R/C?
Why not?
BTW. It is entirely possible to use the TX’s in one hand if switching is your bent.
Tony,
The only part of a stick type radio I like for live steam is the idea of the throttle and the Johnson bar. For those, I would prefer two single axis joysticks.
For electric, I only like a single axis joystick for the throttle.
I believe your statement that I could use the TX one handed for switching, but I’m afraid that I’ve been spoiled by the RCS TX form size. I can do EVERYTHING I want one handed…actually, I typically just use my thumb. Index finger if I want to toggle the whistle. It’s VERY convenient.
I just don’t see that one-thumb type operation in a stick radio, but I’ve never used one…
Plus there’s just something about using the off-the-shelf R/C TX - it just doesn’t seem right for trains.
Then again…maybe it’s time to give it a shot. I’m going to follow this to see what Jon comes up with.
Edit: I see your confusion, Tony. I was trying to somehow clarify that the live steam and the electric folks were really two different audiences, each with different requirements.
This has been a really great discussion. Thanks everyone for your input, and for the experts chiming in.
I’m going to chew on this for a while and see if I can come up with something that will play in both worlds for me. Who knows, I might end up with a Steam/Sparkie switch that changes the control type for each application.
Again - This is just an idea at this point. Don’t even think about asking “Is it done yet ?”
Bruce Chandler said:
Tony, I just don't see that one-thumb type operation in a stick radio, but I've never used one...Plus there’s just something about using the off-the-shelf R/C TX - it just doesn’t seem right for trains.
Then again…maybe it’s time to give it a shot. I’m going to follow this to see what Jon comes up with.
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