Large Scale Central

Bachmann Streetcar Scuttlebutt

General Discussion
#81

“Ready for DCC” also means that generally they are also battery ready too. Which is a good thing seeing as how so many Large Scalers like to battery power their locos.

The electronics required for Plug’n’Play DCC sockets cost very little. Injection moulding and engineering costs associated with any particular model are way more expensive components.

What ticks off many potential battery users is the badly designed and poorly wired DCC interface sockets that are fitted to many models.

That really screws up the idea for many modellers.

#82

While this talk of DCC “issues” is an interesting academic discussion for me. It is important to others on the forum. What is important for me though is; Is my streetcar going to have a dramatic and catastrophic failure on my railroad?

As stated, I do not want to incur the expense and complexity of DCC for my little railroad. I have found that 2 trains is usually my limit on DCC layouts. I have run 3, but that requires constant and vigilant attention, and and extra hand to hold the third controller. So at home I just run straight DC. So, with all the probing and research, is there a design flaw that will render the streetcar unusable for those who run them on just DC?

#83

Tony Walsham said:

“Ready for DCC” also means that generally they are also battery ready too. Which is a good thing seeing as how so many Large Scalers like to battery power their locos.

The electronics required for Plug’n’Play DCC sockets cost very little. Injection moulding and engineering costs associated with any particular model are way more expensive components.

What ticks off many potential battery users is the badly designed and poorly wired DCC interface sockets that are fitted to many models.

That really screws up the idea for many modellers.

The LGB Motor Blocks are battery ready . That’s why they have three terminals .

Mike

#84

Not any more they Don’t.

All LGB motor blocks have 4 x terminals and have had 4 x for many years.

I suppose technically that makes the battery ready but it doesn’t take into account the fact some LGB locos do have extremely complicated wiring and pcb’s that are unnecessarily elaborate. I believe that selling Locos equipped with mandatory DCC decoders was one contributing factor in the demise of LGB.

MTH, for example, makes important locos with all sorts of mandatory equipment. They have have been less successful than they would have been if they sold bare-bones versions without the complications, alongside the regular range.

Nothing wrong with the quality of either brand. Just that consumers in Large Scale have proven they would like the option of NOT having mandatory equipment fitted.

#85

Tony oh yea. That’s why so many many folks do a gut when they upgrade to the equipment they want. It would be nice to no have to pay for stuff you are ripping out anyway.

#86

*** ALL posts on this thread deleted due to personal name calling and general bitching by Mike Morgan, if you want to find the answers I have to avoid burning up a decoder in the Peter Witt streetcar contact me personally… ***

So Mike you got your wish… Now you have nothing to complain about…

Regards, Greg

#87

Greg Elmassian said:

As I stated, and I have the box and all the documentation, nowhere does Bachmann state this streetcar meets the MTC21 standard.

Also, I have seen some documentation that shows the standard has some variations.

Also the NMRA standard is in flux, but it was not last year when the streetcar went on sale and I asked about what decoder, etc.

Not trying to lay blame here, just getting to the bottom of it.

Also, the Zimo site statement is not clear to me as it apparently is to Stan. We requested a decoder from the manufacturer, and this is what we got.

Clearly this could have been “saved” at any time by either the decoder manufacturer or Bachmann, but the idea is to help the CUSTOMER, right?

Greg

Greg,

So it is a MX631 (from the ZIMO site:

MX631Family
Production stopped in December of 2012; replaced by MX634.) i.e. old stock.

Regarding the MX634 (again from the ZIMO site):

MX634 Family
H0-Decoder, with large processor (as MX63)and energy storage circuitry
TYPICAL APPLICATON: HO and (smaller) O gauge.

MX634 — 11 highly flexible wires (120mm) for pick-up, motor and 4 function outputs. Solder pads for 2 additional outputs, logic level and servo outputs as well as SUSI.

MX634R — MX634 with 8-pin plug as per NEM652 on 70 mm wires.

MX634F — MX634 with 6-pin plug as per NEM651 on 70 mm wires.

MX634D — MX634 with 21-pin “MTC“ plug mounted on decoder board

MX634C — MX634D but for Märklin, Trix and similar vehicles; which require FO3, FO4 as logic level outputs for motor control.

As to the assigned functions that pertain according to NEM is Group 8

Pin13 AUX3 Ausgang 3 Group 8

Pin 4 AUX4 Zugbus-Daten Group 8

Pin 17 AUX5 Ausgang 5 Group 8

Pin3 AUX6 Zugbus-Takt Group 8

Going by the NEM 600 all of the above are to be logic-level outputs, however only ZIMO’s C version conforms to that.

I don’t have the background for the D version, but my hunch is “Let’s get some extra AUX functions”

#88

Greg Elmassian said:

Crap, pretty soon we will be on battery vs. track power… please take it elsewhere and “I’m not trying to derail but”… means you did derail…

No we DON’T need to stand back and derail the thread to ponder if we need DCC on THIS thread.

Remember this boys when I decide to take a “good” thread and drive it off into space for my personal agenda… you WILL get this rationale thrown right in your face.

To those who run track DC and/or track DCC how battery plays with the MTC21 interface is at best another wrinkle.

As Stan A. pointed out MTC21 was chosen on the basis of “space available/required?”, where one would fit batteries in that streetcar or for that matter a radio receiver, sound decoder and batteries would certainly be a whole other thread (approx. 4 to 5 pages ).

#89

Really, Greg? Threats? Having a bad morning?

#90

Greg Elmassian said:

Crap, pretty soon we will be on battery vs. track power… please take it elsewhere and “I’m not trying to derail but”… means you did derail…

No we DON’T need to stand back and derail the thread to ponder if we need DCC on THIS thread.

Remember this boys when I decide to take a “good” thread and drive it off into space for my personal agenda… you WILL get this rationale thrown right in your face.

Come on Greg , hover mode off , or people will think you like to be centre stage .

If we wish to look at all aspects of the fitting /not fitting , then we should ask ourselves “is it worth it ?” .

So sell us the ideas that it is .

Then perhaps we may actually buy one instead of pontificating and prevaricating .

OK ?

Mike , not hot and irritable

#91

Oh boy, this thread started with a simple question “I am being told they are not available due to a circuit board issue. Anyone know what’s up?”

Other than the “dummy plug” — sure would like to know how one gets that one wrong - it transpired that the “DCC ready” was not as straight forward as it sounds.

In other words, it’s all about the implementation/interface using DCC decoders and if there’s enough technical information to select the appropriate decoder from a number of manufacturers.

BTW as has been stated several times the Peter Witt runs and works well with DC. If one decides to feed the track from a battery it will work just as well (the devil made me do it!)

#92

OK , let’s look at this another way .

Have you ever thought how many people are put of by all the technical jargon ?

Reading all this stuff here could----and probably will----make a potential buyer ask , as I said before , is it worth it ?

It’s all very fine flagging up the problem , but banging on about it until people get that glazed look in their eyes is counter-productive .

Do not allow your over-shining brilliance to blind people to the fact that model railways are fun .

There is a problem (apparently) with the item .

Can you brilliant people not use your obvious talents to put it in simple language ?

And for an avowed grouch to complain about someone grouching back is a bit rich .

The question is , is it worth buying ? Explain in words of one syllable why or why not .

Mike

#93

Mike Morgan said:

OK , let’s look at this another way .

Have you ever thought how many people are put of by all the technical jargon ?

Reading all this stuff here could----and probably will----make a potential buyer ask , as I said before , is it worth it ?

It’s all very fine flagging up the problem , but banging on about it until people get that glazed look in their eyes is counter-productive .

Do not allow your over-shining brilliance to blind people to the fact that model railways are fun .

There is a problem (apparently) with the item .

Can you brilliant people not use your obvious talents to put it in simple language ?

And for an avowed grouch to complain about someone grouching back is a bit rich .

The question is , is it worth buying ? Explain in words of one syllable why or why not .

Mike

Buy it, if you need/want a 1:29 Perter Witt streetcar (several different liveries) and you are running DC.

If you’re running DCC make sure you pick a fitting decoder i.e. "DCC ready with factory-installed 21-pin and 8-pin sockets for DCC decoder installation of your choice" (my bolding) is not enough information.

Is that concise enough?

PS Now back to my corner in the cool garage to assemble the remaining Llagas track.

#94

Hans-Joerg Mueller said:

Mike Morgan said:

OK , let’s look at this another way .

Have you ever thought how many people are put of by all the technical jargon ?

Reading all this stuff here could----and probably will----make a potential buyer ask , as I said before , is it worth it ?

It’s all very fine flagging up the problem , but banging on about it until people get that glazed look in their eyes is counter-productive .

Do not allow your over-shining brilliance to blind people to the fact that model railways are fun .

There is a problem (apparently) with the item .

Can you brilliant people not use your obvious talents to put it in simple language ?

And for an avowed grouch to complain about someone grouching back is a bit rich .

The question is , is it worth buying ? Explain in words of one syllable why or why not .

Mike

Buy it, if you need/want a 1:29 Perter Witt streetcar (several different liveries) and you are running DC.

If you’re running DCC make sure you pick a fitting decoder i.e. "DCC ready with factory-installed 21-pin and 8-pin sockets for DCC decoder installation of your choice" (my bolding) is not enough information.

Is that concise enough?

PS Now back to my corner in the cool garage to assemble the remaining Llagas track.

Hans , I did say “words of one syllable” . You failed .

Mike

#95

Mike,

I hope you were saying that with tongue in cheek, otherwise I feel sorry for you! :stuck_out_tongue:

#96

PLEASE, everyone…stop, and relax…

The great thing about LARGE SCALE CENTRAL is the great group of knowledgeable people that CONTRIBUTE their knowledge here, and give us much more information about our hobby, than anywhere else on the web.

Possibly, this thread should be moved to a more technical area of the forums, but it should continue, as a wonderful sharing of knowledge about this particular model, for the ultimate satisfaction, and help for ALL potential purchasers.

Those that have recently complained of the path this thread is taking, should realize that it, in the long run will be of help, no-mater whether you are into straight DC; DCC, or radio control/battery.

In the mean time…hold your water…relax…you are not forced in any way to read of the knowledge that is being documented and exchanged…and without arguments, or name calling, I might add. There is no need or positive reason to start throwing in the DCC/DC/RC debate here at all…if you must, or don’t see the point…PLEASE, PLEASE; move along to the rest of the choices of threads on this great website.

As a bit of background, if you really need it…I don’t use or need DCC, or track power, but I do appreciate KNOWLEDGE, and the FRIENDLY sharing of Knowledge and experience…which we all can enjoy here. I hope it can continue in a socially acceptable manner, for us all…

Thank you for reading this, to the end, and trying to appreciate what I am trying to express.

Fred Mills.

#97

HJ

You are absolutely correct. Bachmann should have printed the 21MTC logo on the bottom of its streetcar and also made it clearer in its instructions. Likewise Zimo should have used the 21MTC logo for its C versions and not for its D versions. I could not find the logo on either version,

Hopefully Bachmann will make this more clear in its documentation in the future and Zimo will also correctly use the logo as well.

For example the documentation that comes with the Peter Witt could be improved by stating that:

The Bachmann Peter Witt is designed to use either a decoder that uses a standard 21MTC interface designed for 8 Ohm speakers or an 8 pin standard decoder with a current capability of 1.2 amps"

While not necessary, in light of this thread it is likely best that AUX3 be noted as being a logic level function.

In Zimo’s defense the Zimo manual for these decoders makes it very clear in more then one place that"

“C versions differ from the D versions in the design of function outputs FO3 and FO4:
MX631D: FO3 and FO4 outputs are “normal” amplified outputs (same as headlights, FO1 etc.).
MX631C: FO3 and FO4 are logic level outputs.”

When I see warnings of this type in a manual it raises a red flag to me that I need to make sure which version I need. A simple question on the Bachmann forum asking which Zimo decoder type should be used would have avoided Greg’s problem. The Peter Witt uses logic level for AUX3 per the standard so in this case the C version is the clear choice. Other manufacturers of 21MTC decoders only offer logic level outputs per the standard so this appears to be a Zimo idiosyncrasy.

The 21MTC interface has been around a long time and there are lots of locomotives in the market that use the MTC21 interface, Apparently the multiple ZIMO offerings have not caused a problem in the market before now. Likely because the majority of locomotives from the factory do not use AUX 3-6.

So now we have multiple long threads on this topic that give the reader the impression that there is a serious problem with the Bachmann Peter Witt and it is difficult to install a decoder. In the end it all boils down to better documentation by the manufacturers, users reading the documentation that is provided and if they have questions to simply ask the manufacturers for clarification.

David

The long threads concerning Greg’s problem have absolutely nothing to do with DC operation. The only issue with DC operation is that if you try to operate the Streetcar for 8 hours straight and you have not lubricated the mechanisms, a component may fail. Bachmann identified this production problem, has a fix on its way and will replace the effected part free of charge. You will likely get the replacement long before you experience the problem.

If eventually you decide you want sound and control of the extra functions provided, simply remove the interface boards and plug in a standard 21MTC decoder that supports 8 ohm speakers. It really is that simple.

Hope that helps sum up the long threads on this topic.

Stan

#98

Joe Zullo said:

Mike,

I hope you were saying that with tongue in cheek, otherwise I feel sorry for you! :stuck_out_tongue:

Very firmly so .

In fact , it’s stuck there . Permanent .

Mike

#99

Stan Ames said:

HJ

You are absolutely correct. Bachmann should have printed the 21MTC logo on the bottom of its streetcar and also made it clearer in its instructions. Likewise Zimo should have used the 21MTC logo for its C versions and not for its D versions. I could not find the logo on either version,

Hopefully Bachmann will make this more clear in its documentation in the future and Zimo will also correctly use the logo as well.

For example the documentation that comes with the Peter Witt could be improved by stating that:

The Bachmann Peter Witt is designed to use either a decoder that uses a standard 21MTC interface designed for 8 Ohm speakers or an 8 pin standard decoder with a current capability of 1.2 amps"

While not necessary, in light of this thread it is likely best that AUX3 be noted as being a logic level function.

In Zimo’s defense the Zimo manual for these decoders makes it very clear in more then one place that"

“C versions differ from the D versions in the design of function outputs FO3 and FO4:
MX631D: FO3 and FO4 outputs are “normal” amplified outputs (same as headlights, FO1 etc.).
MX631C: FO3 and FO4 are logic level outputs.”

When I see warnings of this type in a manual it raises a red flag to me that I need to make sure which version I need. A simple question on the Bachmann forum asking which Zimo decoder type should be used would have avoided Greg’s problem. The Peter Witt uses logic level for AUX3 per the standard so in this case the C version is the clear choice. Other manufacturers of 21MTC decoders only offer logic level outputs per the standard so this appears to be a Zimo idiosyncrasy.

The 21MTC interface has been around a long time and there are lots of locomotives in the market that use the MTC21 interface, Apparently the multiple ZIMO offerings have not caused a problem in the market before now. Likely because the majority of locomotives from the factory do not use AUX 3-6.

So now we have multiple long threads on this topic that give the reader the impression that there is a serious problem with the Bachmann Peter Witt and it is difficult to install a decoder. In the end it all boils down to better documentation by the manufacturers, users reading the documentation that is provided and if they have questions to simply ask the manufacturers for clarification.

David

The long threads concerning Greg’s problem have absolutely nothing to do with DC operation. The only issue with DC operation is that if you try to operate the Streetcar for 8 hours straight and you have not lubricated the mechanisms, a component may fail. Bachmann identified this production problem, has a fix on its way and will replace the effected part free of charge. You will likely get the replacement long before you experience the problem.

If eventually you decide you want sound and control of the extra functions provided, simply remove the interface boards and plug in a standard 21MTC decoder that supports 8 ohm speakers. It really is that simple.

Hope that helps sum up the long threads on this topic.

Stan

Stan , you are a man of great perception . and your summation of the advisability of buying

the model is admirable , giving adequate but not baffling technical info .

Mike

ps why do people get so worked up ? I made a valid point . It has been discussed . I am

quite happy . I hope that the others who were baffled are happy too . This hobby

should not require a degree in electronic design .

#100

Stan Ames said:

…

The 21MTC interface has been around a long time and there are lots of locomotives in the market that use the MTC21 interface, Apparently the multiple ZIMO offerings have not caused a problem in the market before now. Likely because the majority of locomotives from the factory do not use AUX 3-6.

So now we have multiple long threads on this topic that give the reader the impression that there is a serious problem with the Bachmann Peter Witt and it is difficult to install a decoder. In the end it all boils down to better documentation by the manufacturers, users reading the documentation that is provided and if they have questions to simply ask the manufacturers for clarification.
…

Stan

Some time ago ROCO/Fleischmann changed their OEM decoder supplier i.e. XYZ supplier was out and ZIMO became the new OEM supplier.

Since I haven’t been active in HO (SG) I’m just guessing that ROCO/Fleischmann made/makes extensive use of the MTC21 but without using the Aux3 and Aux4 as logic level outputs since they don’t use the SoftdriveSine motors. AFAIK the Softdrive Sine is a Märklin and Trix exclusive.

I don’t know how many functions ROCO and Fleischmann use, but using Aux3 and 4 as “normal” function outputs would give them two extra outputs. Hence ZIMO makes the MX634D and MX632D — probably as replacements for legacy OEM decoders in ROCO and Fleischmann engines.

But now Stan comes the real question, does the Peter Witt have a SoftdriveSine motor(s) or what exactly is a • precision can motor?? (Maxon, Faulhaber???)