Greg, I talked to Bachmann in March about their future in 1:29, and they said they’re definitely looking to expand in that market. The trolley is something of a litmus test. If it sells well, we can definitely expect to see more stuff in that scale down the road from them.
That having been said, they’re not doing a whole lot of anything new in large scale or On30 right now, so it still may be a while…
Later,
K
I talked with a Bachman rep 4 years ago when he said they had no plans for 1/29th at all, and yet we are no talking about a 1/29th scale streetcar from the same company…
Did they lie or see a new market and change their mind?
Mark they probably changed their mind. After all, the industry probably saw that Aristo was floundering for a while.
Exactly David, my point…
*** ALL posts on this thread deleted due to personal name calling and general bitching by Mike Morgan, if you want to find the answers I have to avoid burning up a decoder in the Peter Witt streetcar contact me personally… ***
So Mike you got your wish… Now you have nothing to complain about…
Regards, Greg
Just a note here. I ran my Bachmann streetcar again today for a couple of hours. I still have no problems to report.
I run DC, not PWM, around 14 volts on the rails The streetcar runs out and back on my railroad, then takes a break while a PCC runs out and back. So of the about 2 hours of time, its only running for an hour or so of the time.
Greg,
Isn’t the first step in DCC installs to isolate the motor? It seems to me that one of the pins that shouldn’t be connected to the motor makes a closed circuit when the DCC decoder is plugged in. Regardless of type of decoder, you would still get magic smoke if the motor isn’t isolated, thus the street car couldn’t be considered “DCC ready”. Than again, I’ve heard of smaller scale locomotives that have this exact same problem.
If bachmann is replacing the main boards, this seems to me to indicate a problem with the DCC plug and play, but that is just speculation on my part. It wold be interesting to compare the original board with the replacement, but I suspect that it might not be possible as Bachmann would want the original board back to"offer a proof of purchase."
As Steve mentioned earlier, this discussion sure leads credence to the idea of gut and throw… But it adds more complexity that the beginner might not have.
Craig Townsend said:
Greg,
Isn’t the first step in DCC installs to isolate the motor? It seems to me that one of the pins that shouldn’t be connected to the motor makes a closed circuit when the DCC decoder is plugged in. Regardless of type of decoder, you would still get magic smoke if the motor isn’t isolated, thus the street car couldn’t be considered “DCC ready”. Than again, I’ve heard of smaller scale locomotives that have this exact same problem.
If bachmann is replacing the main boards, this seems to me to indicate a problem with the DCC plug and play, but that is just speculation on my part. It wold be interesting to compare the original board with the replacement, but I suspect that it might not be possible as Bachmann would want the original board back to"offer a proof of purchase."
As Steve mentioned earlier, this discussion sure leads credence to the idea of gut and throw… But it adds more complexity that the beginner might not have.
Craig
I have been running a Bachmann Peter Witt streetcar with both an ESU sound decoder and a Lenz decoder for some time with absolutely no problems. You simply plug it in.
When installing a DCC decoder it is important to use one designed for that model. Unfurtunately Zimo makes two variants of this decoder. The D version is not compatible with the Peter Witt. If you use the Zimo C version you should have no problems.
Hope that helps
Stan
*** ALL posts on this thread deleted due to personal name calling and general bitching by Mike Morgan, if you want to find the answers I have to avoid burning up a decoder in the Peter Witt streetcar contact me personally… ***
So Mike you got your wish… Now you have nothing to complain about…
Regards, Greg
Stan,
If the streetcar is advertised as DCC ready shouldn’t the user be able to install any DCC decoder regardless of what it was designed for? If the streetcar was designed to be capable for only one type of decoder this needs to be explained to the buyer before purchasing…
It’s all academic in my case, as I have no desire for the streetcar, or run DCC… But comparing what the smaller scales are able to do with “DCC ready” locomotives, I wold expect that large scale would follow suit!
Greg Elmassian said:
Snip…
Also note that Bachmann has not achieved an NMRA compliance warrant, and it appears that the standard itself is in a state of flux, and from the NMRA view, has been for 2 years.
I personally would have tested this unit with several “standard” decoders before shipping the product, OR have recommended ones that HAD been tested. Neither of these were achieved.
Regards, Greg
Greg,
You articulated it much better than what I could do. Could it almost be considered “false advertising” to claim that the streetcar is DCC ready, when in fact only a select few decoders actually work? Or why not publish information about recommended/tested decoders, I’ve seen that in smaller scales before.
Craig Townsend said:
Stan,
If the streetcar is advertised as DCC ready shouldn’t the user be able to install any DCC decoder regardless of what it was designed for? If the streetcar was designed to be capable for only one type of decoder this needs to be explained to the buyer before purchasing…
It’s all academic in my case, as I have no desire for the streetcar, or run DCC… But comparing what the smaller scales are able to do with “DCC ready” locomotives, I wold expect that large scale would follow suit!
You would think that a “standard” decoder should work. But in Large Scale we don’t have the standards the smaller scales have.
I agree, there should be some published information, on Bachmann’s site, as to what decoders will work. That would be nice to know before someone just plugs in a decoder and fries something.
You would expect Large Scale to follow suit? Why?
I don’t unnerstand. DCC is almost standard in HO, like brakes, a steering wheel, and an AM/FM 8 track radio is in a car. Why is this so hard, its not rocket science? It should even be easier, since the boards are bigger. They must be screwing up on purpose, because they can’t be incompetent, can they?
Because they can Steve?
David Maynard said:
You would think that a “standard” decoder should work. But in Large Scale we don’t have the standards the smaller scales have.
I agree, there should be some published information, on Bachmann’s site, as to what decoders will work. That would be nice to know before someone just plugs in a decoder and fries something.
You would expect Large Scale to follow suit? Why?
David
The Bachmann Peter Witt follows the industry approved 21MTC Standard. The 21MTC interface specifications were developed by ESU and are maintained by Railcommunity and published by MOROP which in this case is the authoritative data source. Locomotive that use this interface to the best of my knowledge all follow this standard.
http://www.morop.eu/de/normes/nem660_d.pdf
This standard clearly states that AUX 3-5 pins are logic level pins.
The NMRA in translating this standard to English apparently made a mistake that was not noticed until recently. Once notified of this mistake they properly notated the problem. They will fix the mistake in their next release.
In my opinion a decoder should not refer itself as a MTC21 decoder unless it follows this industry standard.
Unfortunately Zimo produced two versions, one that follows the standard and one that does not.
This is likely why they note on their WWW site the following.
“WARNING: in any cases a “C-type” should be used instead of a “D-type”, because Logic level outputs for FA3, FA4 are needed, especially locos from: Märklin, Trix, LS models, …:”
Please note that the Peter Witt is a LS model.
If you plug a Zimo D version decoder into any locomotive (in any scale) that has a industry standard MTC21 interface that use AUX-3-5 it is not going to work properly. Note the Bachmann Peter Witt uses a logic level AUX3 as specified in the standard.
I view this as a ZIMO and not a Bachmann problem. However now that Bachmann is aware of the problem I agree they should provide a warning to follow the ZIMO instructions and not to use the ZIMO D version decoders.
One other note. The current approved standard allows for different impedance speakers which must be clearly documented. Older MTC21 decoders and locomotives use 100 ohm speakers. Newer ones use 8 ohm speakers. The Bachmann Peter Witt uses an 8 ohm speaker. If you use a decoder that requires a 100 Ohm speaker it is not going to work. (again same warning in all scales). I believe the next update of the MOROP standard will move to 8 ohm as the standard as well.
Greg used a decoder that does not follow the industry approved 21MTC standard and whose manufacturer recommends not to use for this purpose. I am not surprised at all that it does not work.
Bottom line, before installing a decoder read the documentation to ensure it is the proper decoder for the locomotive you intend to install it in…
Stan
Craig Townsend said:
Because they can Steve?
I guess the interim report and any review could read: “Supposedly DCC ready”, which is just as we have become used to.
Shades of what used to happen with LGB’s MTS - back when MTS was sourced from LENZ and later on when sourced from Massoth. Third party developers provided the proper interface to make LGB’s engines “behave” even when they encountered a more sophisticated decoder from ZIMO. As I mentioned it’s as easy as 1-2-3 in the smaller scales, but in LS we deserve a bit of extra “entertainment”.
As far as “DCC ready” goes if there are any exclusions it should be up to the LS mfg to mention those exclusions. The way it stands at present it’s another instance of the game LENZ and ESU play.
While I certainly don’t need a Witt streetcar, in this house it would be a prime candidate for “remove and toss”. That method takes a lot less time than figuring out what could be wrong after the magic smoke.
Stan,
That’s all fine and dandy, but where does Bachmann specify that you must use a 21MTC decoder? If someone was to purchase this product at their LHS and both the shop owner and the buyer read Bachmann’s advertisement as “DCC Ready” for any type of decoder what would you say to them?
Oh sorry you can only use 21MTC standard decoders, but you won’t find this information from Bachmann…
No every hobbyist is online, and even if they are not everyone has the technical knowledge to understand the difference between the two types for both purchasing and for troubleshooting. So why blame ZIMO when that is only one company that produces decoders, when Bachmann is the one advertising the product as “DCC Ready”. Bachmann should advertise it as “ZIMO decoder type “C” decoder only ready”. Where is the documentation from Bachmann telling the consumer that the streetcar is a 21MTC standard?
OK, on that NEM Standard and tacking on to David Maynard’s statement that it should be clearly listed.
This is what the NEM Standard clearly stipulates
Fahrzeuge mit werkseitig eingebauter Schnittstelle nach dieser NEM müssen auf der Verpackung deutlich mit den Logo 21MTC gekennzeichnet werden.
Vehicles equipped with this NEM interface from the manufacturer must be clearly marked with the 21MTC logo on the packaging of that item.
Sooooo question to David Maynard: is that logo on the packaging?
PS Feel free to post a picture of the product label on the box. 
*** ALL posts on this thread deleted due to personal name calling and general bitching by Mike Morgan, if you want to find the answers I have to avoid burning up a decoder in the Peter Witt streetcar contact me personally… ***
So Mike you got your wish… Now you have nothing to complain about…
Regards, Greg
David Maynard said:
Just a note here. I ran my Bachmann streetcar again today for a couple of hours. I still have no problems to report.
I run DC, not PWM, around 14 volts on the rails The streetcar runs out and back on my railroad, then takes a break while a PCC runs out and back. So of the about 2 hours of time, its only running for an hour or so of the time.
David has (maybe unwittingly) made a very valid point here .
If you are the sole runner of trains on your layout , how many trains do you expect to run at the same time ?
I am old and decrepit so can only manage one , and I believe that goes for most people .
So why have DCC ?
I have stopped buying it ; my LGB stuff has a good enough DCC system made by them and that is quite fit for purpose , i.e. it allows me to drive and also makes the proper noises on command and lets the Pantographs pop up and down , etc… Even so , the pantographs do not make contact with overhead catenary because there is none ; I am not despoiling my layout for the local cats to have fun by wrecking the catenary .
But even now , I go for the cheaper option and do not pay the extra £ 70 for something that really is a waste of time , and means that for every fifth loco I don’t have fitted I can buy a sixth with the savings .
And in the process , not only enjoy my trains , but also do not have to go in for the navel gazing that results from problems which are not only unnecessary for the enjoyment of trains , but are also probably deliberately brought about by manufacturers who want to hog the market—but they wouldn’t do that , would they ? Would they ?
Mike
ps I am not trying to derail the discussion , but we should step back every so often and ask
ourselves if all the aggro is actually interfering with what is actually an enjoyable hobby.
Don’t forget , this rush for “DCC ready” locos puts the basic price of the loco up .