Large Scale Central

Bachmann Locomotive Pricing

General Discussion
#81

Shawn Viggiano said:

Thats why I switched mainly to Live Steam. (other then the fact its soooo much cooler :slight_smile: ) For the price of a plastic engine these days you can get a nice live steamer that can last a very long time.

Bachmann did get me into the hobby but it also made me realise how fragile and how easily they broke. In ways it was a good thing for me. It kept my roster small but it also made me learn to scratch build. With these prices today I have no intrest in buying rolling stock or electric trains. Anything I need I will build it.

The same can be said for just about any product. We live in a disposable society today. I refuse to shop at walmart because of the garbage they sell. It is getting harder and harder these days to find anything that will last more then a few months. Kids toys is another great example. They produce these toys but dont bother to test them out. As soon as you get the toy out of the package (thats a project in itself) and play with it, you notice that it doesnt work like the comercial showed or it breaks. Its getting harder and harder to find a good product that will last, even when you spend more money for it.

Complete agreement from up here with everything you said, Shawn!

I find the same applies to electronic products… I have always, had terrible luck with electronic stuff going bad almost as soon as I get it home. I don’t buy electronic things anymore, haven’t for 2-3 decades. I get someone else to do it for me.

I figure I must be a jinx…

I got a LED monitor a few years ago. Got my wife to buy it though, 'coz of the old jinx thing. I blew it, because I was right there, and gave her the money… - it’s right in front of me. It has a lovely white stripe of brokenness right across the top of it.

My old CRT lasted 20+ years… Was actually still good… Sucked in again… :-((

#82

Tim Brien said:

…

I am indeed grateful that Bachmann chose to model 1/20.3 scale as it is too large for my railroad and thus I stopped purchasing Bachmann products when the big engines were introduced. I can now purchase LGB locomotives cheaper than Bachmann locomotives. …

More agreement from me. The 1:20 stuff is, to my eyes H-U-G-E !!! There’s simply no room for it on my pike, or even really in my small city backyard. In any case, given past experience - not just with the B’mann, but other mfrs as well, and not just of trains, but all kinds of products - like cars, f’r’sample, I would avoid buying first generation anything; bound to be riddled with bugs, AFAIC.

By the way, My K’zoo and Heartland stuff just keeps on going like the Eveready Bunny. It’s not expensive, it’s not highly detailed with fragile bits and pieces, you can dress it up if you want to, and I have kids use it all the time without damaging it, so it’s robust. Oh, and it’s made in the USA, and the company gives good customer service. Tough to beat, and I’m surprised this outfit gets so little mention. 'Course, it helps that I model in 1:22 and 1:24, and that I don’t care if it all ‘scales’ out to meter gauge or something. It works great in my circumstances, and BTW, I’m sure you could scale their American and other locos up or down to suit yourself anyways…

I have no connection to the company… But I do like 'em!

#83

John Joseph Sauer said:
It’s really quite simple. If you don’t like Bachmann or their products then don’t buy them. The small minded criticisms and obvious hatred spewed by the same small clan of individuals who revel in degrading any company that doesn’t live up to their view of how things should be is nothing more than hot air and should basically be ignored. If certain individuals are better than the manufacturers at designing these products maybe they should start their own model train company and show them how it is done.

Your points are well taken as well. B’mann offers a good guarantee, on paper. I’ve never exercised the rights it implies because I’m ‘overseas’ and there are too many border hassles. So I have no experience of their guarantee one way or the other. Not B’mann’s fault.

I do remember the HO Bochmann days, and those old memories have made me leery, but in large scale i have a lot of their stuff, esp freight cars, and no complaints. I put San Val wheels on them all, but I’m glad B’mann now puts metal wheels on them at the factory.

I have often thought that manufacturing and pleasing all these diverse customers must be very difficult; I wouldn’t want to be in their place, and I have also often thought, would the critics be able to do any better? If so, it would be great to have a choice offered by them as well!

All the same, I can inderstand the frustration of purchasers who find that rather than a useful product, all they’ve really got is a pile of parts that they need to take apart, replace or rebuild some parts altogether, and then reassemble.

Ask me how I know this… ;-O

#84

Norman Bourgault said:

…

There are the smaller more affordable scales for us to move over to if required.

I notice that several writers here have made this or similar suggestions.

Are you kidding me? That’s unthinkable!

#85

Okay, I know I said I wouldn’t jump back in here, but I’m exercising my responsibilities as a good citizen here.

Some of the discussion appears to be getting a bit heated in this thread and it needs to be toned down now. If this were a private discussion between known individuals well established in the hobby, I wouldn’t care how many flames get shot. But the truth is that its open to anyone who wanders into the site, further, the comments appear as a rolling commentary on the very front page of the site.

This not only sends a bad image of the people we have here, but also encourages newcomers to exit the hobby as fast as they can return their purchases, which does no one any good, least of all those complaining about cost vs quality issues.

So, either tone it down and leave the personal criticisms on the paintball field, or (capital emphasis) I will ask Bob to lock this thread. (Course, that’s not saying he will do it because I ask.)

Bob: if I overstepped my bounds here, please accept my sincerest, humblest, apologies.

-Jason

#86

J.D. Gallaway said:

Okay, I know I said I wouldn’t jump back in here, but I’m exercising my responsibilities as a good citizen here.

Some of the discussion appears to be getting a bit heated in this thread and it needs to be toned down now. If this were a private discussion between known individuals well established in the hobby, I wouldn’t care how many flames get shot. But the truth is that its open to anyone who wanders into the site, further, the comments appear as a rolling commentary on the very front page of the site.

This not only sends a bad image of the people we have here, but also encourages newcomers to exit the hobby as fast as they can return their purchases, which does no one any good, least of all those complaining about cost vs quality issues.

So, either tone it down and leave the personal criticisms on the paintball field, or (capital emphasis) I will ask Bob to lock this thread. (Course, that’s not saying he will do it because I ask.)

Bob: if I overstepped my bounds here, please accept my sincerest, humblest, apologies.

-Jason

Really??? Can you point to the ones that are “a bit heated” and need to be “toned down?” C’mon Jason, lighten up, just a little, will ya?

#87

Steve Featherkile said:

J.D. Gallaway said:

Okay, I know I said I wouldn’t jump back in here, but I’m exercising my responsibilities as a good citizen here.

Some of the discussion appears to be getting a bit heated in this thread and it needs to be toned down now. If this were a private discussion between known individuals well established in the hobby, I wouldn’t care how many flames get shot. But the truth is that its open to anyone who wanders into the site, further, the comments appear as a rolling commentary on the very front page of the site.

This not only sends a bad image of the people we have here, but also encourages newcomers to exit the hobby as fast as they can return their purchases, which does no one any good, least of all those complaining about cost vs quality issues.

So, either tone it down and leave the personal criticisms on the paintball field, or (capital emphasis) I will ask Bob to lock this thread. (Course, that’s not saying he will do it because I ask.)

Bob: if I overstepped my bounds here, please accept my sincerest, humblest, apologies.

-Jason

Really??? Can you point to the ones that are “a bit heated” and need to be “toned down?” C’mon Jason, lighten up, just a little, will ya?

Maybe we found one of the e-mail originators, eh?

TOC

#88

Norman Bourgault said:

There are the smaller more affordable scales for us to move over to if required.

Norman

Well, sort of. I have a bunch of Half Zero stuff, but all of it is old. English, Varney, Mantua, PennLine, Megow, Comet, Ulrich.

You CAN buy that stuff reasonably, if folks don’t have evilbayitis.

I restore it, test run it, put it on display.

You can take them apart, repair and rebuild, whatever you need, and none of the non-disassemblable issues of at least on Half Zero manufacturer.

Now, 0, is different, too.

OLD three rail stuff can usually be found reasonably if you look, new stuff is out of tjhe ballpark.

I have my old HiRail layout running in the basement. No need whatsoever for any new stuff, nor any command control.

2-rail 0, you have to look, but old Walthers, Athearn, AllNation, Scale Craft can be found reasonably.

But not the new stuff.

Holy Bat Poop, the new stuff is high.

TOC

#89

I have my original 3 rail stuff (Lionel, Marx and American Flyer) running in the basement, too. It just keeps going, and going and going. If I buy new stuff, it is Williams copies of the old Lionel stuff. I haven’t tried any of the new Williams by Bachmann, yet, though I have been tempted.

I do have small amount AtlasO stuff with TMCC in it in Spokane Portland and Seattle livery, and so far that has held up well, though I just run it in conventional. They looked so purdy on the shelf that I just couldn’t resist.

:slight_smile:

#90

J.D. Gallaway said:

Okay, I know I said I wouldn’t jump back in here, but I’m exercising my responsibilities as a good citizen here.

Some of the discussion appears to be getting a bit heated in this thread and it needs to be toned down now. If this were a private discussion between known individuals well established in the hobby, I wouldn’t care how many flames get shot. But the truth is that its open to anyone who wanders into the site, further, the comments appear as a rolling commentary on the very front page of the site.

This not only sends a bad image of the people we have here, but also encourages newcomers to exit the hobby as fast as they can return their purchases, which does no one any good, least of all those complaining about cost vs quality issues.

So, either tone it down and leave the personal criticisms on the paintball field, or (capital emphasis) I will ask Bob to lock this thread. (Course, that’s not saying he will do it because I ask.)

Bob: if I overstepped my bounds here, please accept my sincerest, humblest, apologies.

-Jason

Jason, that is tongue in cheek, isn’t it?

What gets people is cheap, unreliable stuff that they bought unawares of what’s what in LS, BTW that goes for any scale.

When asked (quite often) what to buy for any given scale, they get the straight story. I recommend the makes with the fewest problems and the best service (in any scale). They’re still welcome to buy cheap, not my problem.

I used to do the exact same when in the machine tool field; some didn’t necessarily like my recommendation, but they knew exactly what I thought of certain products. Yes, those products could be from any country, there are no lily white producers anywhere out there.

PS I have an N scale layout with highly reliable material, I also have a HOm layout with highly reliable material.

#91

John Le Forestier said:

Steve Featherkile said:

Who are these twits that email Bob to watch a thread?

And just exactly what would he be looking for anyway? I’ve never been clear on that at all… 'Far as I can see we’re just talkin here. No plots to asassinate a president or anything like that. What exactly IS the deal? Maybe Bob will take this opportunity to make clear just what his concerns might be… 'Coz I REALLY don’t get it, honest I don’t…

John,

one needs to look at all the players in this thread. Bob knows that with all the ingredients in the pot there is a recipe for potentially explosive situation.he has seen it all before, many times.

We need to go back a few years to a time when a certain German toytrain manufacturer was having liquidity problems and there were many suggestions put forward as to how this could happen and others who seemed unable to see the reality of the situation. This lead to many heated arguments. Bob is merely defusing a potentially explosive situation.

I do admire though the diehard dedication that some feel for their favourite manufacturer, irrespective of any criticism, but do wonder why they feel compelled to stoically defend the manufacturer by potentially shutting down any debate.

One has only to look at some of the names and it is easy to see who it is that reports back topics like this to their ‘masters’. A recent topic response by me had the ex-company head of a particular manufacturer send me an email whereby he stated that he was offended by some of my comments. We call it ‘rats in the ranks’. Maybe the word snitch is appropriate. Perhaps they feel that their favourite manufacturer will close up shop and stop production because someone has the audacity to criticise a product. We all know how lame most magazine reviews are as the magazines have a responsibility not to offend their adveryising base and thus tread lightly in any review. If not for forum critiques then how would someone be made aware of any pitfalls with a particular product.

The typical response is, “If you can do better than put your own money forward and make it yourself”. Well the argument does not have any credibility. If a manufacturer produces an item and it falls short of expectations are we morally required to extend our support to him?

Is not the legal obligation on the manufacturer to produce an item that is ‘fit for purpose’? He produces an item with the expectation that we will purchase it. We are under no obligation to kneel down and praise him for doing so. He is after our money not our praise.

#92

Hans-Joerg Mueller said:

Jason, that is tongue in cheek, isn’t it?

What gets people is cheap, unreliable stuff that they bought unawares of what’s what in LS, BTW that goes for any scale.

HJ,

the main problem is that people equate ‘cheap’ with BARGAIN. They want a bargain, but of cause it has to be inexpensive. The word cheap has no significance to them of perceived quality or lack there of.

I have not so fond memories of the supermarket lines that some ‘h.o’ manufacturers released at ridiculously low prices and quality. These trainsets were the epitome of a cheap toy and yet people purchased them. Look to New Bright and Scientific Toys. People still buy these products for one reason - they are CHEAP!!!

You can lead a horse to water as the saying goes, but there is always someone who ignores the facts and ‘saves’ himself a few dollars. Then he will clutter up forums wanting free advice how to fix his recent purchase.

#93

Back to the original question for a moment. This has been discussed long and loud at our regular operating sessions.

The gist of those discussions is, there are basically two types of marketing. Yeah, I know, there are dozens if not hundreds, but we’ve boiled it down a bit.

One type states you can make your widget, and sell 1 million for a buck, and get your return of a million bucks. The other, you can sell your widget for a million bucks, and if you sell one, you’ve made your money.

To continue addressing the original question, Bachmann was part of the first type in the early days of LS.

Sell a whole bunch, cheaply (bargainly?) and make your money.

It doth appear that since the inception of certain components (description left out purposefully in deference to Bob’s blood pressure), they are in the second camp.

But, as I have said for 30 years or more, we were experiencing a real bargain in LS. I predicted a number of years ago that the pricing would go up, more in-line with smaller scales, and it has.

It has priced me completely out of the new market…but so have automobiles.

And houses.

Go figure.

If my house hadn’t been paid for in full 20 some odd years ago, I’d be in trouble.

My cars were all purchased for cash, all run today (except the street rod which is getting new quarter wings).

If you want to buy into the current crop, and have the money, and the blood pressure to deal with it all, nobody, least of all I, will tell you you cannot.

Somebody needs to support them.

I’ll be checking back off and on tonight…running trains shortly…doing setout now.

TOC

#94

J.D. Gallaway said:

Okay, I know I said I wouldn’t jump back in here, but I’m exercising my responsibilities as a good citizen here.

Some of the discussion appears to be getting a bit heated in this thread and it needs to be toned down now. If this were a private discussion between known individuals well established in the hobby, I wouldn’t care how many flames get shot. But the truth is that its open to anyone who wanders into the site, further, the comments appear as a rolling commentary on the very front page of the site.

This not only sends a bad image of the people we have here, but also encourages newcomers to exit the hobby as fast as they can return their purchases, which does no one any good, least of all those complaining about cost vs quality issues.

So, either tone it down and leave the personal criticisms on the paintball field, or (capital emphasis) I will ask Bob to lock this thread. (Course, that’s not saying he will do it because I ask.)

Bob: if I overstepped my bounds here, please accept my sincerest, humblest, apologies.

-Jason

Really ??? OMG.

#95

Nick S. said:

Really ??? OMG.

Apparently.

#96

"So, either tone it down and leave the personal criticisms on the paintball field, or (capital emphasis) I will ask Bob to lock this thread. (Course, that’s not saying he will do it because I ask.)

Bob: if I overstepped my bounds here, please accept my sincerest, humblest, apologies.

-Jason"

Whoa, I really scared now!

#97

Saw an ‘N-scale’ loco in the LHS today…$350.00.

cough

Smaller ain’t cheaper!!!

:slight_smile:

#98

Did I miss something… tap tap tap … on puter… guess it working. Wrong link? Page? Guess that what happens when not getting updates on puter. … re-boot.

#99

Mark V said:

Saw an ‘N-scale’ loco in the LHS today…$350.00.

cough

Smaller ain’t cheaper!!!

:slight_smile:

New MTH HO Hudson $500.00 At least we know there making money in another scale,

Just not Large scale as they just cancelled there large scale catalog again for the

8th time …

Trains arent cheap but We do expect/Demand them to work properly when new or at

least I do anyways.

#100

As do I, and contrary to popular belief, that is what I fought for all those years…and years.

And years.

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