Large Scale Central

Bachmann Locomotive Pricing

General Discussion
#1

Hi guys:

I had a look today at the current pricing on the TrainWorld website for the Bachmann locomotives.

The Bachmann Forney is listed at 750.00 .

The green & Russia Iron restock of the Bachmann 4-4-0 is 596.99 with the older stock ( exact item except for the paint ) painted unlettered at 349.99 .

The Bachmann C-19 is at 899.99.

I also looked at the Aristo Craft web site. The C-16 restock price has risen to 499.99 in either of the two remaining paint versions.

The rising cost of track has been put forward as to the lack of growth of G .

What are your thoughts towards the rising cost of locomotives?

I am a confessed model train addict. NO WAY that I would pay these new prices for a plastic loco for what not that long ago was the price range for die cast or even brass model locomotives.

When I got into “G” it was because “G” was such a great dollar value compared to HO Scale.

What are your opinions as to what these new prices mean for largescale?

Norman

#2

Ya, I used to argue that the MTH Challenger in LS was 899.99, while the same store sold the MTH O version for 1499.99. Just proved that you got more for your dollar in LS than the smaller scales.

#3

My thoughts are the same as they were last week, last month, last year, etc.

Gee, when I started working a 40 hour week in 1967 I made $5,200.00 a year. I make more now, but it doesn’t go any further. I guess EVERYBODY else wants their raises too.

Bread was $.69 a loaf and now it’s $3.49 HOW COME.?

I guess the guys that make the locos have to pay the chain too.

Ask. again next year . Maybe things will have changed.

#4

My thoughts are that large scale has always been expensive. go to any train show or Ebay and you are looking at $1-$5 for a HO car and $20 and up for a G scale.

Years ago track nearly doubled in price over night and many thought it was the end of large scale but guess what it continued on. Now the engines are going up in price, what can we do life will go on.

I would suggest checking all the online sources for your engine the prices are all over the place.

I could never understand how a loco can have a MSRP price of $1000 then it can be found for $300.

Of course the used market is always a way to save money.

#5

Norman,

take a trip downunder and have a look at local DISCOUNTED prices in Australia.

Emily - $353

Thomas/Percy $269

Annie $399 (unchanged for nearly ten years)

Forney $1070

K-27, Mallett and Climax $1150

No mention of the C-19 price in Australia.

The distributor imports these direct from China so no additional transport cost markups. Who is ripping off whom?

Theoretically, I can pay full dealer MSRP in the States and have the item shipped priority airmail to Australia for hundreds of dollars less than the local DISCOUNTED price. Someone is fiddling with the books. These prices have always been this high for years.

A typical ‘Big Hauler’ copach or piece of rolling stock sells at a discounted price of over $100.

#6

Hey Tim.
Not trying to excuse them, but paying the local price does mean the product comes with a practical local warranty.
Given the flaky nature of some large scale offerings in the past, that warranty is often needed.

#7

Tony,

a 50% markup just to cover potential warranty claims is a little rich to my way of thinking. Bachmann pricing locally has always smelled like a rat. Distribution should never be a monopoly market.

I certainly would like to see evidence of local servicing honouring warranty claims to justify the 50% markup in price, without resorting to shipping costs to/from the States. I purchase Bachmann overseas with a view to any failure is at my expense. At 50% markup, after two overseas purchases at full MSRP I am already in front than if purchased locally. A 50% markup implies full replacement value warranty claims for every two sales locally. That would not be a very reliable product.

#8

Hi Tim.

The official Bachmann importer in this country does not actually retail direct. They sell only to dealers.

Unlike the USA where many dealers are quite happy with a 10% markup, Australian dealers in any non main stream business such as Large Scale trains, all want at least a 50% mark up.

Plus, the Australian retail pricing also includes our 10% GST and the USA prices are always all before Tax.

#9

Tony,

thankyou, but I am/was aware of the distribution setup in Australia. Some years ago distribution rights were onsold to a dealer. I am not aware if that agreement is still current or if the original Melbourne based distributor retained distribution rights.

One assumes that the Australian distributor is not able to wrangle the same cost price per unit as the American distributor due the number of units ordered. Thus if the Australian distributor is paying basically full American MSRP retail in China to purchase his goods (which he certainly does not) then the markup differencence would equate to a typical 60% wholesale markup.

If the items had to be purchased through an American distribution network then additional shipping costs would help somewhat to bridge the margin, however goods come direct from China not the States!

#10

According to their website Zimbler is currently the Australian agent for all Bachmann products including Graham Farish etc.

Jonathan Zimbler is a personal friend, although I haven’t seen him for some years now.

As far as I know Bachmann products for Australia are still being sourced ex factory in China.

#11

Most of the cost increase is the Chinese workers, just like the Japanese in the 70’s and 80’s are getting smarter and demanding better wages. I dont know the actual figures for China’s inflation rate but in Japan, it was double digits for many years and the main factor in driving the importers of brass model trains to shift production to Korea and now China. Where will it go next? An industry insider said after factoring in cost of production, shipping from the PRC to the USA and other logistical costs. it would cost the same to produce that model train in the USA. Why isnt this done, because the tooling is in China and owned by the PRC(Peoples Republic of China). The facalities and tooling do not exhist in the USA to produce the trains, and while some compaines, Lionel for instance, have started to shift some production back state side, it wont happen over night. Till then we are stuck with rising prices as the workers demand better wages, material costs go up and up, shipping prices rise ect. I just look at what a Roundhouse live steamer would have cost me a few years ago when I first found live steam. Its risen almost $1000 since then after factoring in the exchange rate. Going back thru my Steam in the Garden back issues, when I first got into live steam, a RC controled Lady Anne was under $1400 and manual near $1000. Now a brand new one will cost you, after factoring in shipping from the UK and from the dealer to me, just under $2000. The engine alone before shipping from the UK is almost $1800. Everything has gone up, call it corperate greed, rising cost of oil and thus plastic, rising logistical costs ect. Prices of metal is what truely drove up track costs, whats brass comprised of?? Bronze and Copper, look at copper prices and the thefts of copper around the USA and turned in for scrap value. I have extra track that I may never use, but I wont sell it as I dont feel like paying todays prices to replace it should I need it again. All we can do is be smart shoppers and look for the best value, factoring in shipping and the reputation of the seller. I myself dont mind paying a bit more if I know or trust the person selling the item, espicaly when it comes to big ticket items like locomotives. And look at it this way. Money or Trains, you cant take either of them with you the day the Lord calls you home. So live each day like its your last and enjoy it to the fullest! Cheers Mike

#12

Now you know why the core of my roster is made up of inexpensive Mack’s.

One of the advantages G used to have over HO is that yes HO cars are way cheaper, you don’t need as many cars in G.

Part of the problem is that China is simply no longer a cheap place of manufacturing and its only going to get worse as the working class demand a better standard of living, just wait until the Chinese can no longer float there currency where they want it and have to peg it down to a real world value.

Add that material costs in China have gone way up due to local and worldwide demand so the costs of doing business in the land of the dragon has gone up and up raising the costs of everything.

I keep trying to think of were manufactures will go next for their cheap labor pool and the only place I can think of is somewhere in Africa, the middle east, India or in southeast Asia like Vietnam.

Another factor is that manufacturers are now only selling locomotives quite literally with all the bells and whistles…and chuffs and chuggs. Sound as well as DCC boards are now becoming de rigueur, that alone can double the cost of an engine. It seams like the guys like me who just want a simple not sound, DCC or battery ready engine are now clearly in the minority, new engines are being kitted out in such a way that they are now double what they used to be.

Ex: older LGB non-anything Porter $115, new LGB w/ sound DCC ready Porter $265.

Ex: Piko 2-6-0 non-anything Mogul $195 , same Mogul w/ sound DCC ready today $375

So combine track, cars and locos, G today has become a much pricier option, particularly for newbies. I used to believe that with the large cost increases that we would see as return to smaller layout designs and a resurge in smaller cheaper stock and engines, but what I’m seeing in reality, is instead that if newbies can’t afford the 8’ or 10’ dia curves that everyone seams to believe are now the de facto standard min dia, or can’t afford that K or Dash or other yard long engine, they are instead simply dropping G as an option altogether.

And that’s not good for anyone in this hobby.

#13

Vic Smith said:

…Ex: Piko 2-6-0 non-anything Mogul $195 , same Mogul w/ sound DCC ready today $375

Here we also have a cost issue downunder. Considering dollar parity and the items have to be shipped from Germany to either the States or to Australia, why does a DISCOUNTED no frills Piko Mogul cost $499.00 and a sound/smoke version cost $795.00? Basically twice the U.S. cost.

In general, local retailers (for all goods) are trying to get the government to tax internet sales to bring them inline with over the counter retail sales (currently 6% of total retail sales in Australia). Not only do they want us to buy locally at highly inflated prices, but penalise us if we look overseas and wish to pay the price the rest of the world pays.

A bit off topic, but if I use a U.S. address then I can purchase a movie online from Apple stores for around $12.99 USD. If I supply an Australian postal address then the same movie will cost me $29.99 Aud from the same Apple online store. Now consider both dollar parity and supposedly worldwide markets and both Apple and the movie rights holders are having a field day. Similarly online music downloads are exactly twice what Americans pay and music CD sales are almost twice the amount you pay for the same CD.

#14

Hi Guys:

Thank you for your comments.

As for Australia, an Australian friend of mine orders all his Bachmann from the United States.

The Bachmann pricing model seems strange given that China is so close to Australia. On the plus side, Australians live in a magnificent climate.

I believe that largescale model train mfg. will next move to Vietnam or sales will simply collapse.

I do not believe that Bachmann will sell sufficient locomotive units at the latest higher China mfg. costs.

Pesonally I can live without the latest sound. I wanted synchronised puffing smoke which ONLY MTH offered in largescale.

Accucraft USED to be the common man’s access to live steam and largescale brass. Now Accucraft seems to be in the same price range as Aster. That is a major loss for the hobby.

On a positive note, the HO Scale Broadway die cast locos with sound and smoke are still an excellent value. But that is HO Scale.

So the situation is the same for many of us:

would we enter largescale today at the latest higher prices? Some yes, I believe the vast majority NO.

Gauge O may become the replacement outdoor scale.

Norman

#15

Norman,

I really do not think shipping costs to Australia play a major role in the higher retail prices downunder. I feel that the local retail community is generally not comfortable with the idea of discounting/competitive pricing. The problem is the complete lack of competition. Even the single outlet that does offer discounts is only 10% off maximum retail price. Hardly enough to raise one’s interest.

Retailers complain bitterly of decreased sales due the onslaught of the internet and yet they do not do price matching or come anywhere close to the mark. Increased cost to cover warranty is a sham. If a decent item was made in the first instance then warranty claims would be negligible. By paying exhorbitant prices we are compensating the company for poor quality production.

Nearly ten years ago I could see the writing on the wall for Chinese production and touted Vietnam as the next Asian tiger. Vietnam has a stable government, good transport infrastructue to the world and a willing, dilligent workforce. Vietnam is ripe for ‘capitalising’ investment.

#16

All above is correct, BUT the USA debt has reduced our buying power is a reason for a large increase in prices,

Dennis

#17

My complaint has been the same since I started in the model train hobby about 5 years ago. When I was looking into starting with G scale, I looked at the manufacturers’ websites for track and equipment. The MSRP for an American from Bachman was like $900 (?). Of course the street price is significantly less. Aristo-Craft’s MSRP for stuff was sky high, etc. etc.

I was almost scared away from even starting in the hobby with the MSRP pricing.

Why do they list such high prices in the first place? How many potential G scale hobbyists did give up after reading the MSRP listed for locomotives, etc.?

Dennis, you hit the nail on the head. In the U.S. our “buying power” has stayed the same or dropped due to inflation/devaluation of the dollar.

#18

If MSRP is scaring people away from the hobby how do they deal with the rest of their lives? It’s the same with everything. Who pays MSRP for a car? Flat Screen? Clothes? We buy everything at a “discount” or with a coupon, it’s the way we are trained.

Both my K-27’s were purchased from dealers for under $600.00.

My Mallet was under $450.00.

I picked up an American for $250.00.

All from dealers NIB.

Like most, I wait for a deal on what I want before I buy. Though in full disclosure I did once pay full sticker for a car after putting down $1,000.00 a year before it was built!

#19

I can only speak for myself Mark. When I first saw the MSRP for the items I wanted to get started, it was more than I wanted to spend to enter a hobby I was yet certain I would enjoy.

My question stands, why must manufacturers list their products with prices so high and in some cases immediately mark them down to a more reasonable price, even as much as 40% or the MSRP?

#20

Fair question, just saying it is the way nearly every business does it. My new lawnmower was listed at $749…I paid $425. Would never have paid $750, felt good at $425. I guess they “got me”.