Large Scale Central

Bachmann Locomotive Pricing

General Discussion
#21

David Hill said:

My complaint has been the same since I started in the model train hobby about 5 years ago. When I was looking into starting with G scale, I looked at the manufacturers’ websites for track and equipment. The MSRP for an American from Bachman was like $900 (?). Of course the street price is significantly less. Aristo-Craft’s MSRP for stuff was sky high, etc. etc.

I was almost scared away from even starting in the hobby with the MSRP pricing.

Or if they like many newbies, look at the Walthers catalog at their train LHS, that can deliver quite a nasty sticker shock as well as Walthers everything is MSRP list.

I mention this as most train LHS are solely supplied by Walthers.

#22

I think if you want to start in this hobby nowadays, the way to go is to buy one good quality loco at whatever price you can get it, new or used. Bite the bullet - they are expensive. A top quality train will hold its value pretty well though, maybe even gain - I could cite examples a-plenty!

Now you’ve got something reliable to run, to really enjoy, and to build your empire around.

The biggest challenge for a beginner might be deciding what scale to run on 45mm track out in the backyard. That was my first problem as a beginner, BTW.

Nobody needs as many locos as most of us buy. OK, speaking only for myself only, I own way too much stuff… I am an example of what not to do. Today, I say, “stay small and simple when you start out. Oh, and the highest quality you can afford.”

That sure doesn’t mean spending brass money for plastic trains.

#23

I would tend to agree, pic out a loco that is good and keep from buying a bunch of locos. I,m guilty of buying more than what I need. Later RJD

#24

Reference Boomer’s clever response (above):

“Eventually the cocaine and heroin smugglers will realize they can more money trafficking G scale trains…”

So once regulators discover the dangers G" products inflicts on family finances, marriages, and home repair-- all from “G” product purchases – discussion on resulting regulations are within realm of today’s politics. If pricing and illegality are corollaries, then the outcome would be substantial compensations to “G” distributors and manufacturers for ceasing public sales. Of course, from governmentally regulated pricing depots, the prices would come down!

Hmmmm.

Wendell

#25

Hi John Leforestier and others:

John you are absolutely correct as to we all own too much stuff.

This really is not our fault as when we started in this hobby the mfgs. were introducing and producing all eras of models and scales ( 1:24, 1:22.5 and 1:29 ).

Then 1:32 and 1:20.3 were introduced as the correctly gauge models ( which is of course correct , but do I care? No ! ).

Then the mfgs. blew out large volumes of unsold product at or below their mfg. cost through the mail order dealers. How could we not buy too much stuff ? !

Those early mail order clearances presented buying opportunities where the product was almost being given away.

The new entrants into this hobby now have the advantage to select from a more mature product selection. They can plan what they want to model as opposed to our generation who was merely buying " nice " locos from the current product offerings with no knowledge of where the mfgs. product line was going as the mfgs. did not know where they were going themselves !

Personally, I am glad that I entered the largescale hobby when I did. I have an unorganised collection of many scales and era of prototypes which definitely do NOT form a coherent collection. Just a bunch of “cute” locos which is fine with me.

The best organised modellor that I have noted from both of these forums is a gentleman who has a Bachmann 1:20.3 Spectrum 2-6-0 Mogul pulling a string Accucraft 1:20.3 coaches past a PIKO Grizzly Flats Depot which he has modified to 1:20.3 scale by raising the door heights. He also built a Bachmann 1:20.3 Spectrum 4-4-0 into a track inspection loco. Really neat.

This gentleman has selected a specific era and has built a very realistic outdoor layout. Clearly he planned his purchases carefully and has not bought excessive amounts of product.

As a child I had a figure 8 ( 3 rail ) Lionel set with three locos. I ran those trains for hours on end.

Today as an adult, I wanted an excess of these toy trains as I am interested in all eras of steam locomotives. Those blow out clearance sales through TrainWorld and other mail order dealers presented obligatory purchases ! I sensed back then that that was the time to buy as later the prices would escalate. Although I could not have forseen just how high the prices would escalate.

Furthermore, the President of Canada Post had a five year plan to increase shipping rates to a target rate to increase revenue. Well now that the five year plan has increased the shipping rates to the target level, folks have cut way back on shipping.

The TrainWorld purchases are no longer anywhere near as good as deal as before due to present high Canada Post shipping rates.

So this leaves the new entrants with the challenge of restraint and planning to carefully select their purchases.

I do not believe that the large scale mfgs. will sell sufficient units of the plastic steam locos at the latest and future increasing product pricing. The mfgs. rely on the hobbyist buying duplicates of locos and rolling stock in various roadnames ( hobbyists buying too much stuff )

At least the diesel locos are still not that expensive for those interested in diesels. The younger generation is most likely more interested in diesels any how so I guess the main future of large scale for the mfgs. lays in producing diesel locos.

Anyways, there is always O Scale for those determined on building an outdoor layout.

O Scale may be the future for outdoor train layouts.

Norman

#26

Norman Bourgault said:

SNIP

The best organised modellor that I have noted from both of these forums is a gentleman who has a Bachmann 1:20.3 Spectrum 2-6-0 Mogul pulling a string Accucraft 1:20.3 coaches past a PIKO Grizzly Flats Depot which he has modified to 1:20.3 scale by raising the door heights. He also built a Bachmann 1:20.3 Spectrum 4-4-0 into a track inspection loco. Really neat.

SNIP

Any pictures of that? I know my 4-6-0 and 4-4-0 are 1:20.3 but they just look wrong to me pulling my big AMS coaches. Perhaps if I saw someone else…

:slight_smile:

#27

I have read all the posts. Most make valid points…increasing PRC wages, increasing PRC raw materials, increasing shipping from PRC, even the US Debt. The PRC knows what our buck is worth, and price accordingly.

Since this thread concerns one manufacturer, there are a couple of other things.

One that puzzled me was right after the K-27 review came out, the listed MSRP (on one production run) went up. Quite a bit.

I always thought that was the PRC adjusting for DC printing more money.

The other is a bit more difficult, and because of coloured glasses exhibited here, one has to be careful.

One another forum, long ago and far away (or so it seems anymore), arguments over the mandated inclusion of certain electronics, and the suspected price increase of locomotives due to that, were promptly countered by the person responsible for that inclusion, who stated that it would not raise the price at all.

Since that time, everything made by said company has jumped in price, sometimes dramatically, to the point the first of the new order was retro-bumped in MSRP.

I suppose, if you have coloured glasses from the same source, you’d never see this, and that’s okay.

I don’t. And I saw enough to make a conscious decision to never, as in ever, buy anything new from that company. Ever.

Now, no names are mentioned, and if you think you know who I’m referring to, it would be a surprise to me.

TOC

#28

Dave wink wink say no more.
Said price leaps are one reason I was so giddy when the Lil Big Hauler line was released. Not only inexpensive but simple simple simple. No unwanted electronic garbage to jack up prices but I wonder how long before they try pitching their DCC system in their Thomas and LBH lines.

#29

Vic Smith said:
Dave wink wink say no more. Said price leaps are one reason I was so giddy when the Lil Big Hauler line was released. Not only inexpensive but simple simple simple. No unwanted electronic garbage to jack up prices but I wonder how long before they try pitching their DCC system in their Thomas and LBH lines.

SSSHHHHHHH don’t give them any ideas…

#30

Of all the complaints against manufacturers for making prices out of reach for the common bloke to disparage Bachmann is just unfair. You don’t like a company, fine…Don’t buy their products.

I’m not wearing “rose colored glasses” when I see a company make excellent “G-scale” products over several different scales with EVERY price range in mind. Seriously, what’s the problem with a company that brings us something for EVERYONE?

Little Big Haulers…Unbelievably inexpensive fun for kids in “play-scale”.

Thomas…Fantastic depictions of beloved play toys at a VERY attractive price.

Big Hauler line…The cornerstone of thousands of “G-scale” layouts everywhere. Let’s not forget the latest generations of the “Annie”, by far one of the best values out there.

The Spectrum Line…1:20.3 beauties with fantastic detail at a comparative bargain to what else is available in 1:20.3.

Yet the same people will line up time and again and tell us how horrible they are, how their products are junk, and how we are wearing rose colored glasses for saying anything different.

I have to ask…If Bachmann doesn’t make you happy with what they are doing within the industry, if they don’t offer a wide enough, cheap enough, detailed enough product range then what is it you want from a large scale manufacturer?

#31

Mark, personally I have alot more anger at LGB and Piko than any other companies, mostly for the same reasons Dave states about Bmann, namely the forced upon us inclusion of all the electrionics without any option for a less expensive base model: “No you WILL take sound and circuitry” as the afore mentioned $265 0-4-0 Porter and the $375 0-6-0 switcher illustrate.

I am actually grateful to B’mann for bringing out the LBH line, its the most affordable thing to happen in LS in years, and also to HLW for still managing to hold the price of the Mack and their mini-line within the reach of average folks. Aristo just seams to be trying to survive, and what little new USA has offered has gone after the 12’ min dia. crowd.

#32

Vic Smith said:

Mark, personally I have alot more anger at LGB and Piko than any other companies, mostly for the same reasons Dave states about Bmann, namely the forced upon us inclusion of all the electrionics without any option for a less expensive base model: “No you WILL take sound and circuitry” as the afore mentioned $265 0-4-0 Porter and the $375 0-6-0 switcher illustrate.

I am actually grateful to B’mann for bringing out the LBH line, its the most affordable thing to happen in LS in years, and also to HLW for still managing to hold the price of the Mack and their mini-line within the reach of average folks. Aristo just seams to be trying to survive, and what little new USA has offered has gone after the 12’ min dia. crowd.

Now that is a legit complaint…Bachmann never took a cheap model and made it expensive forcing more dollars for the same thing (even with the “Annie” they continued production of the Big Hauler version). LGB on the other hand took a “base” F7 and made it a whole lot more expensive for the limited benefit of a few.

My point is Bachmann has not done this. Like GM they offer “Chevys and Cadillacs”. No one complains that the don’t get a Cadillac for the cost of an Impala.

#33

Mark V said:

…

I have to ask…If Bachmann doesn’t make you happy with what they are doing within the industry, if they don’t offer a wide enough, cheap enough, detailed enough product range then what is it you want from a large scale manufacturer?

That can be applied to any mfg. Basically what people want (both sides of the Atlantic) is perfect models that last forever and are very cheap. There once was a time when EVERYBODY knew: “you get what you pay for”. But since memories are short the mfgs decided to try on the “pain threshold” method, flog whatever at the highest possible price and discount if it doesn’t move.

#34

I hear ya Hans, but again you may have missed my point. Bachmann does not push the pain threshold because they offer a complete range of options based on what a consumer wants to pay. No other large scale manufacturer does that. Where is USA’s budget line? Aristo?

Aristo does offer the “Egg-Liner” and in fact Accucraft does have a brass/plastic line…But no other company has gone as far to make large scale affordable as Bachmann.

They most certainly have their warts, pricing people out of the g-scale market is not one of them.

#35

Depends. If you looked at the broad range (ALL scales), and read just how reliable some of their crXp was, then took an honest look at LS, you might just have cause for a pause.

I have issues with mandated unnecessary components in ANYthing.

Then, when you look at when the prices jumped, well, an honest person would at least look at the timing and say “gee, that’s interesting”.

I was never a fan of funding product development by buy-in beta testing. How many folks had a 4-6-0 version 1? 2? 3? 4? 5?.

Now, after all that, you can buy version six!

Market research leaves some of us…puzzled. On another forum, long ago and far away, there was this guy who complained loud and long while development was underway on the K…stating that he wouldn’t buy one unless he could do all the work he needed without removing the item from the track.

So, we ended up with three screws holding the tender shell onto the frame…from the top. Okay, now let’s say you want to run outdoors…and seal the coal load…can’t. Two screws are underneath the coal load.

Okay, we’ll be careful…and six months later you decide to take the shell off, and find the water has eaten the slots out of the screws and you now need dynamite.

But, they met one person’s demands, right?

I am just not gonna be their guinea pig anymore.

I am extremely happy that there are some who willingly line up for the privilege.

But, we are back to the original question on pricing.

Look at the original outside frame 2-8-0.

Yeah, has some issues.

Got a lot of visible detail, like outside frames and springing…stuff you can see. Remember what it cost then, and how cheap you can still find them?

Compare that to a new INside frame 2-8-0, with far less visible detail in the chassis.

How much does it cost in comparison?

Add in all the factors mentioned, wages, shipping, raw materials, dollar dive…then look at what’s in the tender of one and not the other, and scratch your head.

#36

Hans-Joerg Mueller said:

Mark V said:

…

I have to ask…If Bachmann doesn’t make you happy with what they are doing within the industry, if they don’t offer a wide enough, cheap enough, detailed enough product range then what is it you want from a large scale manufacturer?

That can be applied to any mfg. Basically what people want (both sides of the Atlantic) is perfect models that last forever and are very cheap. There once was a time when EVERYBODY knew: “you get what you pay for”. But since memories are short the mfgs decided to try on the “pain threshold” method, flog whatever at the highest possible price and discount if it doesn’t move.

Cheap is not the word. Useful, maybe. For decades I recommended to folks looking to purchase Let’s Go Broke locomotives to think long and hard about what they may envision doing in the future. Sort of along the lines of old narrow gauge steam, modern mainline diseasemals, euro, all of that, so they didn’t end up with boxes of new stuff that didn’t meet their ideas.

Sound and on-board electronics was a biggie. If all they were ever going to do, for sure, was track powered with magnets, then by all means buy the version with factory sound.

But if they ever thought they might go some type of on-board control with real-time control of sound available…purchase the non-sound version (and save, what three hundred bucks in some cases?) and buy a GOOD aftermarket sound system.

Some didn’t listen, and they got to remove that three hundred dollar anchor and buy a new sound system.

If our perception of cost in any way centers around the cost of development, design, manufacturing and installing of any electronics in a loco that are useless, then we often let our minds wander to what the cost actually is for this, and why can we not buy the same item without any electronics and save that cost.

If some folks think the price increases are indicative of an increased value, buy the percentage of jump, and can afford it, good on ya!

TOC

#37

My 2 cents - look what happened to Athearn after they were bought. No more kits, ready to run with bells and whistles I don’t want or need. The argument falls in all scales - I hear it when I go to the hobby shop. In HO a GP9 that you could buy for $30.00 not too long ago is now over 100.00. Yes the detail is fantastic, but I’m a operator - I don’t need all the detail - just decent running equipment.

I don’t fault Bachmann - they got me into Large Scale and make a great range of products. When I wanted a K - I saved my money for it, just like I did in HO when I wanted a brass model of something. Same with the geared engines - save the penny’s, pay what I’m willing to pay. If I can’t afford it, or I don’t want to save for it, then it remains on my dream list. I do the same for the AMS cars I buy. they are out of my price range if I wanted to go buy one each week (boy would my wife have a fit - she says I have way too many cars now), so I save my money and buy when I can. It’s a hobby, not a life. Well, just don’t ask the wife about that. She asked me one day if the house caught fire and she was asleep, which would I do first - get her out or the trains. According to her I had to think to long about that answer…

#38

Mark,

Back in my HO days, Bachmann was regularly referred to as “Botchman” and people stayed away in droves. Starting out i LS I almost bought a Bachmann set from a friend who was getting out of LS, I’m certainly glad I didn’t. It would have been used for a bashing job … but …

#39

Ok, three (3) topics under consideration – with reference to Bachmann

  1. Selling products with challenged electronic quality and limited universality with other products.

  2. Selling products that are announced as improved without any product or packaging identification for intelligent retail sales. Example: Order by phone Annie version #6 trusting “Send the one with the metal gears” – and get it.

  3. Selling products that clearly have foibles that can or could be revealed at the manufacturing assembly line, rectified, and then sold with the same product quality confidence the consumer is told to have.

Is it not true we have discussed, argued, lamented, and gnashed teeth over those same three topics for years with all parties agreeing that there is no need to discuss them further?

What assurances can the industry give us that would produce a universal level of product confidence and trust while still retaining those same practices?

Selah,

Wendell

#40

Hans-Joerg Mueller said:

Mark,

Back in my HO days, Bachmann was regularly referred to as “Botchman” and people stayed away in droves. Starting out i LS I almost bought a Bachmann set from a friend who was getting out of LS, I’m certainly glad I didn’t. It would have been used for a bashing job … but …

You’re telling me you felt the level of quality found in a Big-Hauler set purchased for 69 bucks at the local home-improvement store was not up to your expectations?

Shocked, shocked I tell you…

:slight_smile: