Everyone keep your head level. Ive received a couple emails to watch this thread. Everyone take a breath or three.
I like my Annies. I have 3, and haven’t had a problem so far.
I don’t have the latest version, but even Barry has had nothing but good things to say about it.
But even if one of my Annies break, I’ve never paid more than $100 for one.
So, I can break 4 or 5, before a German engine becomes a better value 
The Big Hauler 10 wheelers were junk. But they were cheap and got a lot of people started in the hobby.
If there were nothing but $400 plus locomotives on the market, I’m sure there would be a lot less people running Large Scale.
As for the Spectrum products, they’re beautiful. But I sold my 4-4-0 American. I decided it was to fragile to run on my outdoor layout.
To each his own 
Ralph
Who are these twits that email Bob to watch a thread?
I guess I just can’t understand why some people feel it is necessary to constantly be negative and critical of manufacturers (this includes you Tim). As I stated earlier - if you don’t like a companys products or business practices don’t buy their products. Constant negativity does nothing other than drive people away from an already shrinking segment of the hobby. I have never been critical of any manufacturer - just the people who have deemd themselves as the arbitors of what we should be allowed to purchase…
I’m working with a guy thats having Injection Molds made in China the current price $10,000 USD each, as his product takes only two molds for each shape his cost is $20,000. Eight years ago the same tooling cost him $1500.00 each. And he provides the engineering drawings to the tool maker.
Now count the molds needed for a 6th gen B’hauler, Doesn’t make sense to change something unless you absolutely have to and you make as much use of all your old tooling as you can.
A fairly complex circuit board (once production has started) may add $20 to the cost of a product.
Just my $.02
Steve: A) Those who want Bob to get a good chuckle from the nonsense. B) Keep the fireman handy, just in case the flames start to look like they are going to get out of control. Easier to put out a burning bush than a forest fire, heh?
And for my one and only input into the thread: I think if you dispassionately look at this thread, and swap “mikado” for “ten-wheeler” you can see the same parallels in this thread as has been used to roast another large scale company. And those who were on that other forum can probably remember, there wasn’t anyone who was more defensive for Aristo than I. The point is they all have their problems. If you don’t like the product, aren’t willing to deal with the defects, THEN DON’T BUY!
I personally have engines from Aristo, Bachmann, LGB and now that I have my NS OCS units coming, USA. I’ve decided not to be biased. Its not worth it. I have a hell of a lot more fun designing, building, and RUNNING my trains than I ever did arguing over them.
You all have fun. I’m headed to the other topics.
Yes J D, they all have their problems.
The advantage of fora is: the facts get out there without being filtered through a medium that is beholden to the mfgs on account of advertising. Independent fora like LSC (thank you Bob!) are different from the fora the mfgs run i.e. a spade is a spade and not a politically correct digging implement.
Which has certain people having the occasional fit since their ox gets gored and actual facts replace the “genteel hype” they prefer.
It’s going to be a gorgeous day, perfect weather to quick dry all the styrofoam “stuff” - tunnel portals etc. etc - after they are coated with the tiling cement.
All well and good when the facts are actually facts …
Many of the facts tend to be slightly tainted with personal bias (especially those of some posting on this particular thread).
Balance Hans, something sorely needed. Indeed some wear ‘rose colored glasses’ while others prefer a particular shade of brown. Neither see clearly.
Edit: Should mention the two ‘K’s’ both purchased at 1/3 the MSRP ran beautifully last night. Would prefer a whiter headlight, something I need to take care of in the future. And the new long caboose is now definitely my favorite piece of rolling stock made by any manufacturer…Just amazing detail and performance.
Thats why I switched mainly to Live Steam. (other then the fact its soooo much cooler ) For the price of a plastic engine these days you can get a nice live steamer that can last a very long time.
Bachmann did get me into the hobby but it also made me realise how fragile and how easily they broke. In ways it was a good thing for me. It kept my roster small but it also made me learn to scratch build. With these prices today I have no intrest in buying rolling stock or electric trains. Anything I need I will build it.
The same can be said for just about any product. We live in a disposable society today. I refuse to shop at walmart because of the garbage they sell. It is getting harder and harder these days to find anything that will last more then a few months. Kids toys is another great example. They produce these toys but dont bother to test them out. As soon as you get the toy out of the package (thats a project in itself) and play with it, you notice that it doesnt work like the comercial showed or it breaks. Its getting harder and harder to find a good product that will last, even when you spend more money for it.
John Joseph Sauer said:
All well and good when the facts are actually facts … Many of the facts tend to be slightly tainted with personal bias (especially those of some posting on this particular thread).
Ah, but how well I remember the “good old days” when a certain mfg could do no wrong and actually produced models according to “prototype”, or so their published material claimed. Fact was/is only a few of the items were close to proto. What it took was actually measuring and comparing those measurements to the proto. That finally shut up the “it isn’t true” gang.
Dave can speak for himself and let some more facts - all nicely documented - do the talking. Inconvenient? Yes! Incorrect? Not on your life!
I was going to post a very lengthy discourse early on…but then I realized some of the players had changed, and some were having difficulty following anything longer that a 40-character tweet.
I have Bachmann engines. Most of mine are. One LGB is still on-shed. One Delton Doozie is somewhere.
ALL of the 4-6-0’s have new chassis in them. There is a reason.
ALL of the 2-8-0’s have new gearboxes and motors. There is a reason.
ALL of the 2-8-2’s have new gearboxes, using the motors they came with, and there are LOTS of reasons.
Lots of spares are kept on hand for the Shays, some for the other two styles of loggers.
We apparently get to pay for the privilege of keeping these things running.
Most folks I know, once the price increases began, gave up on new purchases altogether.
Used, they know what they’re getting, and no money goes to Bachmann.
Yes, HJ, yer right, all manufacturers have their problems.
I think the part that really got me was the push many years ago into 1:20.3, the scale and prototype adherence, then we get various and sundry oddities like a 1:20 US “prototype” Meyer, a 1:20 Forney of 2’ gauge prototype blown up to three foot with bolts and braces to add or remove to allow it to act like a streetcar.
The point one needs to understand, at least to the place of looking at the possibility, is, with all the faux pas of the past, and without a clear defining line of a massive change is A) strict adherence to prototype, B) inclusion of strict QC protections, C) adequate testing of pre-production samples, and possible D) protection from approval of electronic drawings by obviously dyslexic personages. I should add E) proper design and selection of materials to ensure long life of product, and adequate spares.
Once you have crossed that line, and demonstrated to the purchasing consumers the effects of those steps, THEN you get to jack the prices.
Based upon the issues experienced by many over the decades, why would one want to pay more for a product that may or may not be improved without adequate guarantees?
TOC
Curmudgeon mcneely said:
I was going to post a very lengthy discourse early on…but then I realized some of the players had changed, and some were having difficulty following anything longer that a 40-character tweet.
…
That’s why they are sometimes referred to as the tweeting twits.
I don’t know if you care TOC, but that last post was very clear, concise, and without distain. Helps me hear your point.
There is no doubt I have been “blessed” with a long history of well running, trouble free Bachmann products. Connies, Shays, K’s, Americans and Moguls…Happy with them all. Will they break? Likely, but I have stocked up on replacement parts I was told I would need and to date have needed none.
Cannot forget about the Mallets, Forney, Annie or the 45-tonners. All A-ok.
Now that I have slapped fate in the face I will probably spend the weekend repairing all of the above.
On the 2-8-0’s, one operating session, two of them, owned by two different folks, split the axle gears 20 minutes apart on the same spot on the line.
Regularly I change out Shay axle gears. In fact, I usually do preventative maintenance by flipping Shays over and thumb rolling each wheel. If it spins, gear is gone.
New Shays…the PC board contact in the chassis for each truck…boy, are those fun.
Obviously, there has been a change in attitude and marketing in the PRC. when the Shay came out, and we could not get parts, a quote was related to me by the person receiving it.
“we make our trains cheap enough that when it breaks, just buy another” when asked about parts.
Obviously that is changed now.
Of course, one needs to view product reviews carefully, and have some modicum of trust that said reviews are adequately in-depth. When the K came out, with the associated issues, there was a glowing review in Model Railroader.
They waxed long on the virtues, listing all the wonderful things that would plug into the amazing unit under the coal load.
I called up the reviewer.
Asked if they had actually plugged any of that stuff into the tender.
Nope. We don’t have any of that stuff to actually plug into it.
Did you know the chuff is inverted, and at the time I think only ESU Loksound would work…
Nope. Had no idea.
Now, had they kept abreast of reports, or actually plugged something in, they would have known.
Starting current and voltage, full slip… and SMPH at full chat…and they’d have seen the problem right now.
I used to be very supportive, and if the quality proves to really be changed, I may again.
I do try to keep an open mind.
John Joseph Sauer said:
I guess I just can’t understand why some people feel it is necessary to constantly be negative and critical of manufacturers (this includes you Tim)…
John,
maybe it is that both of us are aging, but you have really mellowed over the past few years. You are sounding more like your alter ego, Jack.
Coincidentally to this thread, yesterday on a local television station was an original Three Stooges film, “Stop, Look and Listen”. The three stooges brings back memories of those heady days several years ago, discussing the virtues of that German manufacturer and possible reasons for its fall from grace. It is good to see that you now equally support all manufacturers from the perils of the internet critic.
I am glad to see you back in the fray. It was Aristocraft stainless steel rail and Bachmann Anniversary locomotives that allowed me to get back into largescale with a vengeance. If I had to do it with just LGB then I would be running a smallish empire with predominantly starter set locomotives and rolling stock.
Do I owe Bachmann and Aristo-Craft blinded allegiance for allowing me the privilege of being able to purchase their products? A definate NO! They produce a product and must expect both positive and critical acclaim. How else would they have the incentive to de3velop their product line without feedback.
An interesting anecdote regarding Henry Ford. He made millions of dollars mass producing the model ‘T’ Ford. He considered it the epitomy of what a man would need in an automobile. To the realist, by 1927 the model ‘T’ was archaic and well beyond its use by date and yet Henry persisted with his usual blustery attitude to keep the model ‘T’ line operating. When reality dawned and he found himself begrudgingly years behind other manufacturers, he was forced to shut down the model ‘T’ line for around 18 months to develop a new replacement model. A prudent businessman would have been developing a replacement automobile prior closing the model ‘T’ line, but not the stubborn Mr. Ford.
Edit: the anecdote regarding Henry Ford, in case some of the Twitter people had not read that far, was to highlight that without consumer backlash Henry was content to keep churning out an antiquated automobile as in his opinion it was the perfecrt choice for the common man. Maybe Henry’s politics had a lot to do with his thoughts.
Possibly we could all be still running version 1 Big Hauler locomotives around the diminutuive Christmas tree but for a few complainants.
Hi Tim Brien and others:
Yes, the move by Bachmann to 1:20.3 also curbed my Bachmann loco purchases with the exception of the American 4-4-0.
The 1:20.3 Forney could be used with 1:22.5 rolling stock but I will definitely wait for clearout pricing.
As many of you have posted, I too bought all of the versions of the Big Hauler, now the Anniversary, and with the previous pricing of the day mechnical problems could be forgiven.
But not at the latest import shipload of Bachmann and Aristo Craft product. At those prices the product must be without defects.
As well, many of you have posted that you would not enter largescale today at the current new higher pricing. So the three plastic largescale loco mfgs. have a problem. They will all need to move to a lower cost mfg. environment.
There are the smaller more affordable scales for us to move over to if required.
Norman
Norman,
ironically, the Anniversary is the oddball in the Bachmann pricing policy. I purchased my first Annie around ten years ago at a local retail outlet. The cost back then was $399.00. Fast forward ten years and the same Annie, albeit upgraded with metal gears and better pilot truck is guess what??? $399.00.
That aside, I purchased numerous Annies overseas on sellout for $79.00 - $129.00. I did purchase a 45-tonner for the local ‘discounted’ retail price ten years ago for $499.00. How many remember the Ridge Road sellout on the 45-tonner, $69.00!!!
Years ago when the Connie was released at $795.00, I purchased it for $425.00 and thought what a great deal. Alas, within two years they were being flogged off for $159.00 upwards to around $225.00. My good deal was not so good. Same for the Rio Grande Southern mailtruck. Purchased for initial retail only to see the price plummet down to around $89.00 in its heyday.
If I was getting reliable quality then I would not really have a complaint. However, quality control has not been Bachmann’s forte. They produced a beautiful ‘shelf queen’ model with limited driveline development (one man beta development, whether Dave or Stan is simply not sufficient for a high end product). These days it seems quality has improved, but alas, too late for me. I have no interest in K-27’s and C-19’s and whatever else they may come up with. The old adage once bitten, twice shy is very pertinent.
Norman Bourgault said:
There are the smaller more affordable scales for us to move over to if required.
Norman
Norman,
around twelve months ago I grew tired/bored with repetitive kitbashing in largescale and looked for a new hobby. My heart fell upon British “OO” scale. I can assure you that smaller is not less expensive.
Steve Featherkile said:
Who are these twits that email Bob to watch a thread?
And just exactly what would he be looking for anyway? I’ve never been clear on that at all… 'Far as I can see we’re just talkin here. No plots to asassinate a president or anything like that. What exactly IS the deal? Maybe Bob will take this opportunity to make clear just what his concerns might be… 'Coz I REALLY don’t get it, honest I don’t…