Large Scale Central

Bachmann Locomotive Pricing

General Discussion
#201

Kevin, Quote: “If the locomotive represents enough of a value for you as an individual, then buy it. Otherwise, move on.”

I find a statement like this to be a little beligerant. It’s intent is to stifle any further discussion. Yes, a lot of what has been said has been repeated as it seems that some prefer to pick headlines rather than read the entire thread, something that only a few seem to have done. I have mentioned limited production run numbers and per unit cost previously. I believe on more than one occasion, as well as other factors that have possibly influenced the current pricing policy.

Simply because a product is physically larger than another does not imply production costs will be proportionately larger. Final cost will depend on the quantity of tooling required, material and labour costs, shipping costs, exchange rate variable as no doubt set out in a contract plus profit margin. The distributor will then pass on these costs plus his own profit margin in proportion to the number of items ordered by the retailer. Bachmann’s final cost will be disproportionately smaller in relation to the overall store price due middlemen and the point of sale taking their cut.

I do not see that people are criticising the specific locomotive but rather the pricing method. You are indeed fortunate in that you are able to purchase the loco for around two-thirds of the current retail price in Australia or the U,K. Local and European distributors ensure pricing is kept close to the equivalent MSRP. In reality you have no issue other than objecting to comments made in relation to the current U.S. pricing. I do not believe the quality of the locomotive is in doubt, only the degree of pricing increase in relation to historical street pricing expectations.

It seems that Bachmann and/or its distributor/s are ensuring that the situation that existed in the early to mid 2000’s does not happen again. Production runs will be limited and thus per unit costs higher to amortise tooling and production run costs. This marketting shift will impact on the hobby. The railway hobby in Europe is similarly impacted with manufacturers finding it more difficult to bid for production run time slots plus anticipate inevitable production timetable delays. Many manufacturers do not meet their expected production results. This further impacts on the bottom line as products fail to reach the market on schedule. Bachmann seems to centre its production releases around summer and the Christmas/holiday period. Failure to meet these delivery schedules results in missed sales and lower returns for both the manufacturer and the retail trade.

With production based around Kader factories, many manufacturers have looked elsewhere (as you have stated). One British manufacturer has now instigated production in India to compensate for the limited production outlets in China. Perhaps moving production outside China will see a fall in prices in the years to come, but while production is stifled in China costs will continue to rise. That point I believe is beyond dispute.

#202

For those of us - UK and Australia and New Zealand, who do not share the US propensity for blow-out sales at a fifth of the usual price, there is no option but to pay what is asked by the dealer, or stand and watch somebody else’s trains.

Hereabouts, I got lucky with my Climax [unwanted gift and therefore sold cheap at about $700], and Connie [too big and ‘let go’ for about $850]. The Heisler, BNIB old stock, was bought a couple of years back for around $600, and on each occasion, I was grateful to get a locomotive I wanted so cheaply by comparison with the dealer price. I bought my original two-truck Shay from the Train Stop in San Diego after they had sorted out the problem with the original trucks, and my three-truck Shay as part of a six-loco deal where we each paid $250 for a model that was far north of $1300 in yUK. I already had a metal K-27, so I wasn’t interested in a plastic one, albeit that it is a beautiful model.

The C-19 holds no interest for me, and since most of the geared loco bases have been covered, I won’t be in the market for anything else that Bachmann might produce in future - certainly not their revised Heisler at almost $1200.

Who makes it is immaterial to me - as HJ notes, we all want the mostest for the leastest, and these days that just ain’t going to happen. The days of wine and roses are gone, and to find the word ‘bargain’ in a non-American sales environment is about as rare as finding a diamond in your soop.

tac, ig, ken the GFT - off to Portland Saturday Market, and then down to OMSI to say hello to SP&S #700 - the Grand Old Lady of Portland

#203

"I find a statement like this to be a little beligerant. It’s intent is to stifle any further discussion. "

Certainly that is not my intention. (Nor would it stop this discussion if it was.) Its implied meaning is no more than what is literally stated; if you like a loco, buy it. Otherwise, don’t.

As to the debate, we have no firsthand insight as to the “whys” of the price increases, so speculating as to their cause isn’t very productive. It doesn’t matter if we feel they’re justified or we feel we’re being ripped off–without any data, we can support neither conclusion.

On the other hand, discussion of their effect is certainly a debate worth having. My thoughts on this have been stated previously, so no point in re-hashing them again. Free market economic forces; supply-demand rule the day. At issue for long-term health of any manufacturer is how well they adapt to the reactions of their market. Occasional forays in one direction or another to “test the waters” are okay–no risk, no reward. But as the song goes, “ya gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em.” That’s a fine and often grey line, and if not read properly can cause serious damage to a company.

Later,

K

#204

Kevin Strong said:

One thing, too, to consider when looking at cost per locomotive is the number of locos actually produced. Tooling costs are constant no matter how many locos are produced. Fewer locos means a higher cost per loco to cover the tooling.

I don’t know “real” numbers, but my gut tells me that the cost structure for the outside frame 2-8-0 was based on a larger production run than that of the C-19, especially if they haven’t run off the production room floor in a number of years and there’s still new stock sitting on shelves.

There are just far too many variables in play in terms of material cost, labor, tooling, total production, etc. for us to make any kind of factual statement about the relative costs to produce these two locomotives. All of our claims–whether the increases are “justified” or whether we’re being “duped” are pure speculation at best. None of us have hard facts upon which to make any comparison. 11 pages of posts later, nothing’s changed.

Bottom line, one loco costs a lot more than the other for reasons unbeknownst to us. And frankly, those reasons are none of our business. Bachmann (or any manufacturer) is under no obligation to justify their pricing. It may not make a lick of sense to us as consumers, but oh well. Such wild variation in terms of price, features, and/or quality is not unique to Bachmann. The “rule” seems to be to evaluate each locomotive on its own merits. If the locomotive represents enough of a value for you as an individual, then buy it. Otherwise, move on.

Later,

K

Geez. Why did I even bother to talk about numbers produced as affecting costs earlier.

But still, over 300% increase in price in 10 years, for something with the same major bits in the same major places.

It is real informative to folks who still read the magazine to see just how objective you can be when it comes to certain manufacturers. Did you have those blinders surgically implanted?

True, the reasons are none of our business.

I didn’t start this silly thread.

Internet is full of stuff that’s not our business.

Another attempt, not a very good one, to divert attention by trying to lay a guilt trip.

Fail.

You really need to hire a continuity writer to keep track of where you drift.

As far as evaluating each locomotive on it’s merits…isn’t that where this tread started heading early on, like page one or two?

And every time someone tried to put into a cohesive statement, someone else tried to divert attention from said 300%+ pricing increase.

To their everlasting credit, they provided a pair of 2-8-0’s for us to compare.

One is very (relative) expensive, with some new unproven parts, full of Integrated Production Electronics, and like anything, the shills will tell you this is the answer to famine, drought, world peace, and stripped gears, when nobody knows yet if the proper gears have been hardened or not.

The K-27 had metal gears…other than 14.5:1, the next geartrain failure was the plastic bits that held the axle gear to the axle.

Shear Pins is what they’re called.

You have a known quantity and quality on the one hand, streeting for about $250. You have claims of all new, wonderful, fountain of youth, step right up, buy your elixir of life for only eight hundred clams, folks on the other.

And this isn’t the only one being questioned.

Norman I do believe was questioning ALL pricing of late. We cannot compare this Meyer to the last one, since there wasn’t a last one. Nor the Forney, same reason.

But if Bachmann is going to start in with this global redeem the dollar pricing, they had best start getting the locos right.

When the drawing says “articulated” or “mallet”, and it’s specific, don’t ship a Meyer with some hairball fork and spring rear coupler. If a artists rendition of a two foot narrow gauge SR&RL Forney, don’t put it on #1 gauge track and call it 1:20.3.

Don’t make the motor/gearing such that the top scale speed is about double the prototype.

For anyone to make a 300% leap in cost, they need to justify it…by better adherence to scale, and far better, proven, quality control.

Too many items have missed those marks for me.

Cost is the final nail ion the coffin for me…and notice I said “me”, as in “I”.

TOC

#205

If you take a look and compare the exploded view diagrams for a Big Hauler 4-6-0 and a Spectrum C-19 it readily apparent why there is a cost difference between the two items.

http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/dwg/dwgs/LS_4-6-0_Metal_Gears.frame_&_wheels.pdf

http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/dwg/dwgs/LS_C-19.chassis.pdf

TOC and Tim Brien need not reply - we already know your opinions…

It really is amazing how reactionary some folks are even though they “Don’t care”.

#206

I find it amazing that “John Joseph Sauer” who hides behind an “ALT” because he is afraid to use his real name, never has anything substantive to say.

I think we can discount anything he says, as he only wants to stir the pot.

#207

Steve Featherkile said:

I find it amazing that “John Joseph Sauer” who hides behind an “ALT” because he is afraid to use his real name, never has anything substantive to say.

I think we can discount anything he says, as he only wants to stir the pot.

I’ve been doing that for years. The discount on his statements is considerably larger than anything that ever applied to Bachmann products. Something to do with relative value.

:wink: :slight_smile:

#208

Steve Featherkile said:

I find it amazing that “John Joseph Sauer” who hides behind an “ALT” because he is afraid to use his real name, never has anything substantive to say.

I think we can discount anything he says, as he only wants to stir the pot.

Since he didn’t want me to reply to him, I won’t. But, my discussion concentrated on 2-8-0 VS 2-8-0, whilst the Anniversary is a 4-6-0. Probably too many numbers to remember, and exceeds fingers and toes.

TOC

#209

Hey look, just like MLS…Except our posts appear in chronological order.

:smiley:

#210

ahhhh, John Joseph Sauer…nice to see that you are still keeping up with the world of LS as we know it. It is always good to see you still taking the time to add to the chatter.

Thank you for posting.

Fr.Fred

#211

Mark V said:

Thanks Kevin…Nailed it.

HOT

You and Kfed should go back to playin with startrac and leave the real Garden train to the people that actually have the product…

#212

Mark V said:

Hey look, just like MLS…Except our posts appear in chronological order.

:smiley:

It ain’t just the order. This is the one place someone cannot put their “moderator” cap on and modify other’s postings. You’ll learn.

Of course, “putting on” the moderator cap is sort of misleading.

Someone told me he wears it to bed.

TOC

#213

Curmudgeon mcneely said:

Mark V said:

Hey look, just like MLS…Except our posts appear in chronological order.

:smiley:

It ain’t just the order. This is the one place someone cannot put their “moderator” cap on and modify other’s postings. You’ll learn.

Of course, “putting on” the moderator cap is sort of misleading.

Someone told me he wears it to bed.

TOC

Dave, Pay no attention to Mark V… He doesn’t have a clue.

#214

Nick S. said:

Curmudgeon mcneely said:

Mark V said:

Hey look, just like MLS…Except our posts appear in chronological order.

:smiley:

It ain’t just the order. This is the one place someone cannot put their “moderator” cap on and modify other’s postings. You’ll learn.

Of course, “putting on” the moderator cap is sort of misleading.

Someone told me he wears it to bed.

TOC

Dave, Pay no attention to Mark V… He doesn’t have a clue.

Yup. Looked in my database, and you’re right.

TOC

#215

Loved Nick S’s last build thread…And TOC’s layout pic’s were a hoot!

Oh, wait a minute…

Yep, nothing to see here…

#216

Just a bit more information to deflate the arguments.

I dug out my 2002 Bachmann catalog (always handy to keep old reference materials no longer available).

The Outside Framed 2-8-0 was MSRP of $800 (well, $799.99 or so).

Guess what?
Same MSRP as the new one is street.

However, back in those days, before the Bachmann mandated MAP, the street price wasn’t half of MSRP, it was about 1/3.

So, when new, unless on special or closeout, they were roughly $265, so my $259 recollection is probably danged close.

Again:

How much more do you get now than then?

Are you making 3X more money now than 11 years ago?

I’m not.

I went through the review of the original 2-8-0, and it was recommended to buy. Still is.

Now we know some of the issues not known then, and how to fix them.

Another highly interesting item is this wikipedia entry:

http://library.kiwix.org/wikipedia_en_all_nopic/A/Bachmann%20Industries.html#cite_note-B2006-15

In light of dwindling interest in model railroading, the Crowther Brothers decided, in 1981, to sell to their manufacturer, the Kader Group. Kader changed the name to Bachmann Industries and used the new brand to expand worldwide, such as the European market. It is also part of the strategy to take over other failing companies in Europe and put them under one single name. The packaging changed from plastic jewel cases to white paper boxes with cellophane window. Starting from 1982 Bachmann began to slowly retool individual product lines one by one. A typical example would be the replacement of metal gears to plastic ones in the Diesel locomotives. By 1992 all cars were manufactured in China.

So, starting 30 years ago, they shifted from metal to plastic gears, now the shift is reverse.
Go figure.

Just interesting history, that’s all.
TOC

#217

Mark V said:

Loved Nick S’s last build thread…And TOC’s layout pic’s were a hoot!

Oh, wait a minute…

Yep, nothing to see here…

Next time you’re in Seattle, you could call TOC and see if there’s a free spot on the Friday Night operating session. They run rain or shine, which shouldn’t be a problem. People who are all wet (already) should feel right at home. (hehehe)

#218

This thread is called - “Bachmann Locomotive Pricing”. The thread is not let us bash the new Bachmann C-19. The C-19 is the latest production from Bachmann and indicative of the pricing trend Bachmann is pursuing. This is why the C-19 is commented on. Bachmann have changed their pricing policy in recent times to reflect higher profits by ensuring that overproduction does not result in unsold product languishing in wharehouses for years and resurfacing regularly to remind them of their sins of the past.

To t5heir credit they have attempted to improve on past performances and unless their is a weak link in the C-19 chain, it is and will be an excellent locomotive into the future. There is no negative viewpoint on the technical aspect of the model.

As regards comparing a Big Hauler to a C-19 parts breakdown and saying it is obvious why one locomotive is more expensive than another. Of cause the more complex loco WILL be more expensive to manufacture. One needs to compare an outside frame 2-8-0 (Connie) parts breakdown to a current inside frame 2-8-0 locomotive (C-19) parts breakdown. Apart from a few detail items just how much difference is there? Now tell me that one is more expensive than the other to produce. YES, we are talking of different build periods and different cost structures and pricing regimes, but given the complexity of both, then they would BOTH be expensive to manufacture.

As stated previously, the Anniversary is the oddball in the pricing structure. Ten years ago I paid the local retail price of $399.00. Ten years later with metal gears and a refined pilot truck the loco is still $399.00 locally retail. Bachmann held production costs on the Annie for ten years and yet allowed cost blowouts on the C-19 in relation to the basically similar Connie. Yes the C-19 has more scale detail and other bits and pieces that only someone who spent a week crawling over the prototype would notive, but the complexity of the drives is similar. Yes, Bachmann used cheap motors and gearbox components in the Connie, but the basics of both locomotives are technically similar from a layman’s point of view.

We are told that a manufacturer has the right to charge whatever he thinks the market will tolerate and that market forces will see if this policy is accurate. From a moral standpoint, a responsible manufacturer would factor in production and delivery costs to market plus a reasonable profit level to determine actual costs. However, in business morality it seems is seen as a flaw.

It would seem that discussion of the merits of $800.00 locomotiv releases is futile as there are always those who will purchase them at whatever cost. The next BIG release no doubt will be over $1000.00 (most likely closer to $1200.00) ‘street’ price if some of the more vocal ‘moderates’ get their way. Remember those who have campaigned for Big locomotives still want a BIGGGG East Broad Top Mikado or two to add to their collections. Just how much do you think Bachmann will cost that loco at in the stores (Bachmann’s first $2000.00 plus, MSRP)?

#219

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2009/12/29/then-vs-now-how-prices-have-changed-since-1999/

#220

When one looks at the C-19 complete in the box, then the street price is actually quite reasonable should someone feel the need to actually buy spare parts online from Bachmann. A replacement/bare chassis will cost you $700.00 and a replacement tender chassis will cost you $200.00. The no cost to the consumer circuit board in the tender will set you back $95.00.

Strange that a complete body/superstructure which everyone seems to drool over is proportionately only a small cost to the overall parts price package.

Also, the wonderful motor/gearbox that assists the loco with its smooth drive is $60.00. A basic Annie motor/gearbox is all of $35.00 (gearbox alone $20/motor alone $25). Just how good? is the C-19 motor when one knows the Annie motor is basically a maximum $5.00 ‘off the shelf’ production model.

I looked at the expanded image for the C-19 drive chassis and cannot for the life of me see $700.00 in value as a spare part.

I thought the cost blowout for the complete C-19 was proportionately excessive, but when one looks at the parts pricing, well that is where the gouging happens. A C-19 for $800.00 is a bargain if you look at the parts breakdown costing.

Edit: if the C-19 motor gearbox is a very good drive, then one wonders how it would transform an Annie drive. Hopefully it could be transplanted using the stock Annie drive axle. Just simple musings as I have not done a kitbash for a while