Large Scale Central

Bachmann Locomotive Pricing

General Discussion
#181

Tony,

around four to five years ago, I could have purchased as many Connies as I wanted new for $159.00. This was an unusually low price given the general price was $200 - $225.00, with examples occasionally around $179.00. Someone prepared to fit a new drive gear and fix the tender trucks would get a decent locomotive for around $250.00 in current conditions.

I do not know if it is dealers or Bachmann itself still holding stock. My guess is that Bachmann flogged off all stock some years ago.

Edit: when I say the locomotive is $250.00 then obviously I am referring to new old stock (ten plus years old) and not new production. I cannot see Bachmann ever releasing the Connie again so pricing is irrelevant. The market has matured and consumers want ‘scale’ American prototypes. My reference to old and new pricing was merely to reflect that if one really wants a BIG locomotive then it is still available, albeit a few years old and it will not cost $800.00.

#182

I really don’t want to get into this but I cant seem to understand why people are stating the $200, $250, or even $159 price tag as gospel for the Connie. Yes that may be the street price but since when do we go off Train World as the MSRP of a model. Heck when I was exclusively in HO I never took their prices as gospel. It seemed to me I saw at one point the Connie’s MSRP around $500.

Since Bachmann no longer has the Connie listed on their site I cant confirm that.

As it has been stated many, many, many times in this thread, market will bear the price or it wont. Bachmann will loose their shirts for pricing a loco too high or will do just fine. From what I’ve seen the C-19 sales are doing pretty good so far. Incidentally, the MSRP on the C-19 is $1,575.00.

If you are so correct Tim, and I don’t dispute that you might. There will be others that will fill the void. There are already manufactures that could. Hartland is one that comes to mind. They could very easily start producing their already molded models and price them in the price range you want.

In my overview of the industry, it looks to me that Bachmann is trying to place themselves into the LGB price range market. I don’t want to hear about the reliability differences between the two companies, its been talked to death in the thread. However, I have been into C-19 and it is solid, the drive is solid and the motor is solid. I can not argue about how solid the Connie is because mine is in pieces because of it, but like it has been said that model was produced over 10 years ago.

I know I sound like a snob for saying it and I really don’t want to. But, sometimes we have to make do with what budget we have for our trains. If we cant afford the model we want we either save up for it (as I did) or we scratch build our own. Either way we come away with a sense of satisfaction.

#183

Jake Smith said:

I know I sound like a snob for saying it and I really don’t want to. But, sometimes we have to make do with what budget we have for our trains. If we cant afford the model we want we either save up for it (as I did) or we scratch build our own. Either way we come away with a sense of satisfaction.

That’s not being snobbish, that was the rule way back when. You bought stuff when you had the money AND could afford it. Sometimes I wonder why so many of us old farts (snicker) on here can’t remember that.

#184

Some of us do remember, HJ, some of us do. It’s that memory I think that has elicited 9 of the 10 pages in this thread.

If you can buy a 2-8-0 for oh, $250 and put a gear in it, or a gearbox/motor, why spend $800 for something yet unproved? A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush…we all KNOW what to do with the Connie, some don’t want the cost plus the learning curve, plus the added electronics of the new one.

Also, a god thing about the old (series 1-4) 4-6-0’s is there are so blasted many of them out there, we can all have dead storage lines of rusty locomotives…all you have to do is apply “rust”, the “dead” part is provided with the purchase price.

Or, we can take a dead one, picked up for 5 or 10 bucks, add a BBT chassis, and outpull even the latest units, and do it all day long.

This is fun!
TOC

#185

“Bachmann cannot simply rely on the ‘few’ well heeled hobbyists to support the industry. As I stated before, many, given the choice would buy a $250.00 Connie or two or three rather than a $900.00 C-19 (it seems to have increased in price the last few weeks from $800.00).”

No, which is why they have the “Lil Big Hauler” and their standard “Big Hauler” line still in production; locos like the 0-4-0, 2-4-2, 4-6-0, etc., which–even with being upgraded with more robust drives–are still selling in the $200 - $300 range or cheaper. They’re not discontinuing this production line. They may not be putting any resources into expanding it much beyond what’s currently been done, but it’s not going away. The folks who want $300 locos still have that option available to them.

But if Bachmnann can make money selling highly-detailed, smooth-running locos at the $800 - $1000 price point, why not offer them? Choice is a good thing. Bachmann can then look at the revenue streams coming in from both lines, and make future locomotive decisions based on the results.

Later,

K

#186

Dave, thanks. I think the best package is a Connie regardless of age or price with a BBT drive and motor added, so far, seem totally bullet-proof and if it fails, it is warranted for as long as I am around.

Barry

#187

Oh, I didn’t mean to denigrate the 4-6-0 or the variant 2-8-0 Big Hauler, they have been marvelous.

To the best of my knowledge, I have not had a gear failure in 12 to 15 years. If it has happened, I haven’t heard of it. Which means, I think, someone got tired of the loco.

Barry

#188

Jake,

I have written this all before, but as you have not read this thread in its entirety, I will reitterate to save you having to actually read all ten pages as you do not really want to get involved. The initial MSRP of the Connie was $795.00. Shortly after release I paid $425.00 from Al Kramer when he owned his store. I thought it was a good price. Within two years the price had dropped to an all time low of $159.00, but stabilised in the $200.00 - $225.00 range up to recent times, where $250.00 seems to be the status quo. I have no idea what Trainworld sold the loco for as I did not shop there.

My initial point was that how does a locomotive with a MSRP of $795.00, sell within months of release for nearly half that sum and then within two years of release, sell for one fifth of its original MSRP? Bachmann pricing has always been a little suspect, that is up until the K-27 was released. Bachmann kept a lid on street pricing on this locomotive and also on the C-19. However, the three truck Shay, the Baldwin ‘Meyer’, the Climax and the Forney seemed to have been overpriced for the market and prices, irrespective of MSRP, began to tumble. The MSRP on the three truck Shay was initially $1200.00. Maybe you do not remember the dismay in the marketplace when the MSRP on this loco was announced prior release.

Those brought up on typical Bachmann MSRP versus ‘street pricing’ must surely wonder why some locomotives attract street prices and others do not. This is why consumers ask questions as regards how Bachmann set their pricing in the market. However, I have said all this before but you would have to actually read the postings and not just the headlines.

While now in very limited numbers, one can still pick up a new old stock Connie for a third the price of a C-19, so for many the Connie is still an option. Some seem to not understand this point. It may have been out of production for ten years, but is still in the marketplace.

As those who actually know the locomotive have stated, with a bit of work the Connie will become an unbreakable workhorse. Anything from a $10.00 replacement gear to a complete new drive will satisfy the occasional operator to the diehard enthusiast who likes to work his trains. It may not be the latest and greatest with ‘scale’ superdetailing, nor have the no cost to consumer ‘R/C for dummies’ electronics onboard, but it has the capability to satisfy those on a budget. Another point some wish to gloss over.

#189

Kevin Strong said:

“Which is it? Without the price increase they’re gone, but if they don’t sell they’ll eat the ones that don’t sell and come up with cheaper ones later?”

A manufacturer used to widgets that cost them $20 to produce and sold them for $50. Now their widgets cost them $50 to produce. Obviously they can’t sell them for the same $50 or they don’t make any money. That’s the “without the price increases, lots of manufacturers won’t be here for long” part. They have to raise the prices to keep up with increased production costs.

If the $80 widgets sell, then they’ve got a market and they can bring the next widget out at $80 as well. If the market decides that $80 is too much to pay for a widget, then the manufacturer has lots of widgets sitting in the warehouse. Sitting on those (or blowing them out at $60 so to at least recoup their investment) isn’t going to hurt them too much. It’s not healthy, but by itself, it won’t put them out of business. However, the next widget they produce can’t sell for $80. They’re going to have to adjust their production costs so that they can afford to sell their widgets for less than $80. That’s the “…respond in kind and release the next loco at a lower price point.”

The buyer decides what the market will bear in terms of costs. The manufacturer then has to adjust what they make and how they make it to meet those limits. However, the buyer has to be realistic in their expectations of what they can get for the money they’re spending.

Later,

K

Boy, you edit your posts more than just about anybody. Good thing I save the important ones, they make highly entertaining reading. In fact, we might not get to run too many trains next week…the guys will be ROFLFAO.

You make less sense with this stretched explanation than with the one (quoted) and deleted.

Sure they have to cover costs, and turn a tidy profit. “You stupid Americans…playing with toys while we industrous Chinese are busy making money”.

So, QE!, 2 and 3 affected what THEY think our once almighty dollar is worth, so they raise the price. Fewer folks buying, so they raise the price. Cost of materials goes up, and labour, so they raise the price.

And every time a new 1:20 loco comes out, it gets a new electronics board. So far, they’ve all been different.

So, we’re supposed to buck up, pay the piper, and swallow hard?

Or just stop buying altogether?

Plastic shelled loco for $800 street, sorry.

You can buy one.

If all I had available was that or nothing, and everything else was broke, I’d pull the railroad up before I’d spend that much money.

“the buyer has to be realistic in their expectations of what they can get for the money they’re spending.”

Agreed. Instead of complaining, maybe folks should just stop buying. Pick up something used, fix it, no more money crossed the pond.

Last new engine bought by one of my operators was a Meyer (if you don’t know what a Meyer is, ask and I’ll tell you). I don’t think he’s the happiest of campers with it, but I do believe he’ll not buy another new engine.

Maybe we could get Morrison to send in an article on how to re-boiler a Connie. Or change it’s scale.

I’ll tell ya, the nicest engine I have is a K-27, and it isn’t brass, and it isn’t 1:20.3.

It’s 1:22.5, and I prefer it over the others by a long shot.

Oh, and keep your day job.

TOC

#190

I’m dropping in at the end of this conversation.

And then I’ll drop right out again.

The UK prices make most Australian prices look like free gifts. Even now, a K27 is around USD1100.

As for the Forney - a joke is being had here - USD1050 is the average price.

We ALL think that we are getting ripped off. This is only natural, but there are reasonable prices, and tearing-the-arse-out-of-it prices.

Try buying any of the AccuCraft non-British steamies and you’ll quickly learn the difference. $9500 for the coal-fired K-27?

I’m off to The Old Town Pizza on MLK in Portland…

Evenin’, all.

tac, mrs tac, ig, ken the GFT and friends

#191

Ride the MAX, TAC!

TOC!

#192

Dave, I’m confused. Which posts have I deleted or edited in this discussion? (Beyond things like restructruing a sentence for clarity or adding thoughts?) You’ve quoted them as I’ve written them. I can’t delete posts here.

[b]"Plastic shelled loco for $800 street, sorry.

You can buy one."[/b]

Therein lies the crux of this whole discussion. If you don’t feel it’s worth it–and clearly you don’t–that’s the beauty of the free market. You don’t have to buy one. Keep running your BBT-powered 4-6-0s, your 1:22.5 K-27s, etc–whatever makes you happy. I’ve run at your place with your locos and they run as well as any I’ve run. Clearly you’ve built a roster that suits your needs.

You’ll get no argument from me on the quality of Barry’s chassis. That’s specifically why I had him build me a custom chassis for my scratchbuilt C-19. It cost me around $450 for the chassis, and an extra $200 or so for tender trucks and other details. Then I spent the better part of a year putting it all together. Of course I’m going to consider the B’mann C-19 a good value. I know what it takes for me to build one of equal quality. I may not buy a whole fleet of 'em, but anytime I find something that’s a good value that can save me a ton of work and still give me the model I want in the end, I’m going to do it.

Later,

K

#193

(http://i1.liverpoolecho.co.uk/incoming/article3816112.ece/ALTERNATES/s698b/zzdti71562-3816112.jpg)

These are not the droids you,your,you are looking for!

#194

Look at that cost from Barry. Hand built. Tested, Made right before it ships. QC like we certainly aren’t used to. Made In the USA, all of it.

Now.

Mass produce that in PRC, and what do you think it would cost?
Granted, the QC would be…questionable at times. Maybe a Mabuchi motor. How much?

How much work did Kader put into the metal sprung frame on the outside frame 2-8-0? Full loco brake rigging?

Valve gear you can move? Flickering freaking firbox and ashpan?

All the details. Boiler and cab with moving windows.

Look at the gearbox. If they hadn’t cut corners, and used Delrin or metal gears, how much more would that cost?
Save a penny, and how much anguish does it cost?

That loco streets out today around $250, and the dealers are making money.

Think about it.

That’s what this entire conversation has been about.

We know what it used to cost to build a 2-8-0. At least by the end consumer cost.

But now we have a new locomotive with:

Metal sprung frame (I hope for $800 it’s sprung), a gearbox. A boiler with all the details. Cab with hopefully working windows.

NOT ouside frame…so we have actually less fiddly bits to muck around with.

Made in the same factory, probably by the same people.

And all we get is another prototype with integrated production electronics, and it’s more than three times as much, street price?

250X3=750.

I don’t care how nice it looks.

TOC

#195

So we are back to the main point: Product quality is THE topic – no matter the product price, quality is not value-added.

Thanks to Barry’s ethical and highly trusted insistence on quality and Dave’s continual problem solving. They are also joined by the large number of skilled remedy contributors to Large Scale Central. The result is we can overcome quality problems.

However, our resolution begs the question: Why has the major player in our hobby not changed their quality control policies?

Wendell

#196

Curmudgeon mcneely said:

I don’t care how nice it looks.

TOC

You are in the minority :wink:

The “flash” & “bling” sells.

A good portion of these locomotives are bought as “shelf queens”.

To some, all that matters is how nice it looks.

Myself, I’d rather have a little more “substance” than “flash”.

A BBT drive & a HLW locomotive are on my wish list :wink:

Ralph

#197

That’s why I put the “I” in there. “I” would not dream of trying to tell anyone else what to buy or not to buy.

When I bought my “Connie”, new, 2002 or late 2001, if I recall, it was $259US. Since then, I’ve picked up junkers for 5 and 10 bucks, reworked them, and they run here every ops session.

Again, it’s supply and demand. You make 10,000 of something, and only 5,000 sell initially, or if you fall into the trap of the “pipeline effect”, you have stock, the dealers have stock, and nobody is buying.

Now, if your “new” marketing strategy is to make 1,000 of them, and the demand is initially there, you’ll sell them all right off at the price the suckers wi…oooops…at the price the average consumer is willing to pay, then you think, gee, I can make another thousand of them…at the same price…

What really makes me think it’s more like value of the dollar perceived by PRC…when I wrote the K review, we got the MSRP off the Bachmann website. After the review came out, not exactly sure how long, they had gone back and bumped the MSRP by a bunch.

MSRP as reviewed was $1400. That’s for an outside framed, 2-8-2 locomotive with all the integrated production electronics. All of it. HUGE locomotive. HUGE boxes.

The 2011 catalog lists it at $1650US.

So, why did the MSRP jump after they were made?

Value of the dollar is best guess.

Add to that the MAP Bachmann mandated…and suddenly you couldn’t advertise the prices below a pre-set value. I know, Bachmann claimed they had no such restriction, yet discussions over the years with dealers indicated, yes, they did.

So, we’ll see. Someone called me up a week or so ago and said TW was having a blowout on some things…maybe the MAP has been relaxed.

If so, it’s usually an indication sales aren’t as expected…good or bad.

TOC

#198

Dave,

quantitative easing plus the Federal government insistence that China correctly value the Ruan, means an $800.00 locomotive will be a bargain in twelve months time. Bachmann have strictly kept a lid on K-27 and C-19 pricing perhaps indicating that these locomotives are actually selling.

An MSRP of over $2000.00 will not be unreasonable (for some) for Bachmann’s next BIG locomotive release. Perhaps Bachmann are following Accucraft’s lead and testing the limits the market will tolerate. They can always drop the price if the experiment fails and become everyone’s friend, depending on how low they are prepared to go.

#199

Dave, you used the phrase “used to cost…” That’s the heart of the issue. The outside-frame 2-8-0 is over 10 years old. What it cost then to produce isn’t necessarily what it would cost today to produce it. China’s not as cheap as it used to be. Material and labor costs have risen significantly over the past decade. (To the point where there’s now a trend of moving production to other SE Asia countries.)

But what does it really matter what the production costs really are? If the market will bear a given price, then by all means charge that price no matter what your costs really are. If you can sell a $1.99 hammer for $500, laugh all the way to the bank! A product is worth what the buyer is willing to pay, not what it costs to produce.

Wendell, we have a saying in my business… “you’re only as good as your last story.” In the public’s mind, I don’t think any manufacturer will achieve LGB’s reputation for reliability, regardless of how many successes they have. With the C-19, we’ve seen how good Bachmann can be. It’s up to them as to whether they’ll be able to maintain that momentum. They know the stakes.

Later,

K

#200

One thing, too, to consider when looking at cost per locomotive is the number of locos actually produced. Tooling costs are constant no matter how many locos are produced. Fewer locos means a higher cost per loco to cover the tooling.

I don’t know “real” numbers, but my gut tells me that the cost structure for the outside frame 2-8-0 was based on a larger production run than that of the C-19, especially if they haven’t run off the production room floor in a number of years and there’s still new stock sitting on shelves.

There are just far too many variables in play in terms of material cost, labor, tooling, total production, etc. for us to make any kind of factual statement about the relative costs to produce these two locomotives. All of our claims–whether the increases are “justified” or whether we’re being “duped” are pure speculation at best. None of us have hard facts upon which to make any comparison. 11 pages of posts later, nothing’s changed.

Bottom line, one loco costs a lot more than the other for reasons unbeknownst to us. And frankly, those reasons are none of our business. Bachmann (or any manufacturer) is under no obligation to justify their pricing. It may not make a lick of sense to us as consumers, but oh well. Such wild variation in terms of price, features, and/or quality is not unique to Bachmann. The “rule” seems to be to evaluate each locomotive on its own merits. If the locomotive represents enough of a value for you as an individual, then buy it. Otherwise, move on.

Later,

K