Large Scale Central

Bachmann Locomotive Pricing

Well, this is my $.02 worth on a subject that many others seem to have spent much more on, probably enought to pay the price of a loco, Bachmann or otherwise.

I own Bachmann and LGB. Up front, I have to say I’m pretty happy with both and yes the LGB is ex China.

My first loco in large scale was a Bachmann about 5 years ago, I’d previously been in N scale and had avoided Bachmann like the plague after some bad experiences, so I was a little bit wary but the Porter just seemed like a great little loco, and so it has been. No problems in 5 years. I’ve got three other B’man locos now - no problems except for one tender truck which B’mann replaced and refunded the postage although as the Annie is only about 12 months old I can’t yet be certain. (And like a previous poster I’ve probably just condemned myself to an immediate problem)

You know the thing about cats? They like to climb and jump. So when my orange moggie leapt off the top of the bookcase and onto the filing cabinet about 6 months ago I wasn’t really surprised. I just wish my Lyn hadn’t been there waiting to go back on the track following a bit of bashing. After the four foot fall to floor it needed a bit more. But you know, it still worked just fine; and all the bits except the headlight stand just pushed back on. And I could make a replacement headlight stand out of styrene which worked fine. So I didn’t have a disaster, I just had a bit of work; and my respect for Bachmann’s build quality went up a lot.

Now, I’m Australian and like Tim and a couple of others really hate being ripped off by the retail industry. But I still occasionally use guys like Pamak because sometimes I don’t know it all and he’s somebody I can ring up and talk to and although he’s not making any money out of the deal, and likely knows that the bit of kit I am talking about came from an online shop, he still talks. So I’m happy, every now and again, to pay at least half as much again as it would cost me to get the same item shipped out so that he stays in business - I know the price is mainly not his fault, he has to cover his costs and live.

But the same argument does not apply to the cost in this country to download from Apple, Amazon et al. That’s what makes me really mad about prices here.

Hi TOC and others;

  1. curious, why do you refer to yourself as Curmudgeon and post a dinosaur as your icon?

Not required to answer, just trying to understand the reference.

  1. why did the plastic on the first run of the Bachmann Shay trucks crumble?

what was wrong with the plastic to cause this?

Guys:

Just checked again the latest restock pricing at trainworld for some specific locos of my interest:

Forney: 749.99

Olive Green 4-4-0 596.99

E&P 4-4-0 524.99

C-19 899.99

I paid 350.00 and less for the 4-4-0 locos. The Forney is neat but I will only buy at the 400.00 price range.

The LIVE STEAM Accucraft 4-4-0 initial production run was at around 1100.00 or 200.00 more than the Bachmann electric plastic body C-19.

Ridge Road Station and two other major mail order largescale dealers could no longer sell enough product volume at the old pricing level.

How will the present day largescale dealers fare?

Anyway you slice it, these Bachmann locos are still plastic injected molded models and they are not live steam brass models. I simply do not see sufficient locomotive product selling at these higher pricing levels.

The Bachmann C-19 at the present pricing level will sell to the Accucraft customer client base due to the vast price discount contrast with the Accucraft C-19 .

Accucraft is a small production batch mfg…

Bachmann is a large volume production batch mfg…

There are not enough Accucraft clientel to purchase the large production volume of Bachmann C-19 locos.

When the Bachmann Forney was released someone posted their complaint on the Bachmann forum and let it be known that their new Forney was simply not affordable to that hobbyist.

A Forney type 2-4-4T version of the 2-6-0 Mogul of the former 2-4-2 Columbia loco would have broader appeal which could be released under the Bachmann Little Hauler line.

My guess is the Little Hauler line may be the banner under which Bachmann will release future broad market models.

The Bachmann Anniversary is the best deal in largescale but I have tired of the design. Something new in the same price range of the Anniversary would be great.

I hope that Bachmann produces addtional models under the Little Hauler line at the price range, quality and detail level of the Bachmann Anniversary.

A more adult version of the Little Hauler loco ( with tender ) having side rods and valve gear would be popular.

Basically a return to the old product line, such as the Columbia loco reconfigured as a 2-4-4T Forney, with improved reliable drives featuring metal gears driven with a metal worm will bring in new entrants to largescale as we once were.

Concentrating and producing mainly 560.00 (TrainWorld street price and upwards) Spectrum locos will not expand the largescale hobbyist base.

The existing largescale hobbyist base remember well the former product pricing and will only buy a Bachmann Spectrum loco a the current and increasing pricing levels if this is a “must have” loco as the K-27 and C-19 are for many narrow gauge hobbyists.

A mainline 1:29 scale PS-4 Pacific loco in the apple green with the gold tender lettering of the Southern Railway is a “must have” for me but for some reason Bachmann restricts itself to narrow gauge steam models.

As Kader, owner of Bachmann, also produces product for Aristo Craft possibly there is a contractual agreement that Kader will not produce 1:29 scale mainline locos under the Bachmann brand to not compete with Aristo Craft?

Norman

Norman,

I cannot see Bachmann tooling up other than 1/20.3 scale locomotives again. The Anniversary and ‘Big Hauler’ set type locomotive are designed to compliment the ‘Big Hauler’ range of rolling stock.

After the hullabaloo with the ‘fictional’ Connie (I know it was an export locomotive) and the what might have been Baldwin ‘Meyer’, I cannot see Bachmann investing tooling in other than a ‘scale’ locomotive.

As regards an uptooled Lil Hauler, hardly likely. The price increase would diminish the appeal of the loco in its low cost and simplicity and raise it to a price level where it would be competing with better equipped larger locomotives. Adding a bit of detail will not raise the price a few dollars, but many, many dollars. Bachmann charge what the market will tolerate not what it costs to produce.

As regards your Forney, well downunder the Forney, the Climax, the K-27 and the Baldwin ‘Meyer’ all sell for around $1200.00. Alas, no $400.00 locomotives down here!!!

Norman Bourgault said:

Hi TOC and others;

  1. curious, why do you refer to yourself as Curmudgeon and post a dinosaur as your icon?

Not required to answer, just trying to understand the reference.

TOC…The Old Curmudgeon. You’d have to have been there to know. One lovely person, a really nice guy, too, named Ames, called me a dinosaur on MLS many years ago, most likely because I wouldn’t buy into his dcc carp (sp). So, I use a dinosaur. After this site got hacked, the one with a bloody decoder in it’s mouth went away, so this one works for now.

  1. why did the plastic on the first run of the Bachmann Shay trucks crumble?

what was wrong with the plastic to cause this?

One even more famous personage described to me the cause (not limited to early Shays) of worker bees cleaning up around the casting machines. If you put previously melted plastics back into the hopper without treatment, he explained, you get “regrind”. The plastic version of Zamac Rot. I’ve had a lead truck on a 2-8-0 do it, and some bits on a Climax. But that’s just the Gospel according to Howard. I wasn’t there. I do have boxes and boxes of Shay truck parts, mostly in zip-lock bags from separate jobs, that I have carefully saved over the years. I still have brand new boxes, top and bottom plates, things like that, and I can rebuild plastic trucks cheaper than new metal from TW. I prefer plastic as they are quieter.

That said, they do seem to have a good handle on it now. We still get the occasional moron who wouldn’t listen when Bachmann was fixing them for free, left them on the mantle, on display, years later, built the railroad, take them off the shelf, and lo, and behold, the trucks stayed on the shelf.

Guys:

Just checked again the latest restock pricing at trainworld for some specific locos of my interest:

Forney: 749.99

Olive Green 4-4-0 596.99

E&P 4-4-0 524.99

C-19 899.99

I paid 350.00 and less for the 4-4-0 locos. The Forney is neat but I will only buy at the 400.00 price range.

Isn’t the LGB one in your price range?

The LIVE STEAM Accucraft 4-4-0 initial production run was at around 1100.00 or 200.00 more than the Bachmann electric plastic body C-19.

Ridge Road Station and two other major mail order largescale dealers could no longer sell enough product volume at the old pricing level.

How will the present day largescale dealers fare?

TW is “monitoring” LS, last I was told. Since they depend upon volume, that is where you look to see what they’ve dropped or are clearing out.

Anyway you slice it, these Bachmann locos are still plastic injected molded models and they are not live steam brass models. I simply do not see sufficient locomotive product selling at these higher pricing levels.

The Bachmann C-19 at the present pricing level will sell to the Accucraft customer client base due to the vast price discount contrast with the Accucraft C-19 .

Like the “inexpensive” 1:20 freight cars Bachmann did, right? Ever compare them to Accucraft in price (if you can find them)?

Accucraft is a small production batch mfg…

Bachmann is a large volume production batch mfg…

There are not enough Accucraft clientel to purchase the large production volume of Bachmann C-19 locos.

When the Bachmann Forney was released someone posted their complaint on the Bachmann forum and let it be known that their new Forney was simply not affordable to that hobbyist.

A Forney type 2-4-4T version of the 2-6-0 Mogul of the former 2-4-2 Columbia loco would have broader appeal which could be released under the Bachmann Little Hauler line.

My guess is the Little Hauler line may be the banner under which Bachmann will release future broad market models.

The Bachmann Anniversary is the best deal in largescale but I have tired of the design. Something new in the same price range of the Anniversary would be great.

The 4-6-0 Anniversary looks really, really good with a BBT 2-8-0 drive under it and a Trackside brass pilot assembly. Makes coupler mounting a whole lot easier, too.

I hope that Bachmann produces addtional models under the Little Hauler line at the price range, quality and detail level of the Bachmann Anniversary.

A more adult version of the Little Hauler loco ( with tender ) having side rods and valve gear would be popular.

Basically a return to the old product line, such as the Columbia loco reconfigured as a 2-4-4T Forney, with improved reliable drives featuring metal gears driven with a metal worm will bring in new entrants to largescale as we once were.

Concentrating and producing mainly 560.00 (TrainWorld street price and upwards) Spectrum locos will not expand the largescale hobbyist base.

The existing largescale hobbyist base remember well the former product pricing and will only buy a Bachmann Spectrum loco a the current and increasing pricing levels if this is a “must have” loco as the K-27 and C-19 are for many narrow gauge hobbyists.

A mainline 1:29 scale PS-4 Pacific loco in the apple green with the gold tender lettering of the Southern Railway is a “must have” for me but for some reason Bachmann restricts itself to narrow gauge steam models.

As Kader, owner of Bachmann, also produces product for Aristo Craft possibly there is a contractual agreement that Kader will not produce 1:29 scale mainline locos under the Bachmann brand to not compete with Aristo Craft?

I don’t think you’ll see Bachmann/Kader do 1:29. Of all people, Kader knows exactly what the sales of both Aristo and USA 1:29 stuff is. They know what their stuff is doing. Interesting position to be in. The hobby is seriously shrinking. The number of actual large scale railroads is smaller than you could imagine. If you look at circulation of GR over the years, you might get some idea. If you try to see how many of those are really something other than armchair modelers, after your head quits hurting, you’ll see.

I’ve quit buying. I think my last purchase was a couple of flatcars from TW. I have equipment stacked all over if I need it. I dumped a whole bunch of stuff off last couple of years. I know folks who have tried to sell off stuff. There is no market. I bought a whole bunch of 4-digit LGB stuff, new in the box from an estate. I ended up giving the last of it away a year or so ago. Folks put out lists, no clue that they cannot take a Bachmann they paid $150 for 6 years ago and ask $250 because it’s rare and out of production…but I digress.

Locally, Bachmann freight cars go for 10-15 bucks if you’re lucky. I’ve seen 4-4-0’s and 2-6-0’s for less than $200.

If I see something used I need for parts, repair, I’ll buy it, but never new. I wouldn’t ever do that again.

I would never discourage folks from buying new. I would, however, point out that good stuff can be bought used for a lot less.

Buy a Connie, BBT box or just a NWSL gear, add your control system, and sound, couplers you desire, and you’re still a lot less than new offerings are.

Norman

The price of the Bachmann Forney always made me laugh. Its a great looking Forney but that price you can get it in live steam. Yes the detail is not their on the live steam one, but to me its a no brainer.

I still love my Hartland Big John.

Shawn boy you ain’t kidding there.

I have always been rather angry with Bmann that their On30 range has way more interesting models while LS offerings seamed schizophrenic at times, where is the LS version of the nifty 2-6-0, the 2-4-4-2, the Railbus & trailer, the 18-ton Heisler, the 2 cylinder Shay, …hell where is a LS 8-ton Porter ???

All of them smaller more versatile engines that could work easily on a much wider range of layout sizes. I really dont believe the notion that LS will only accept Colorado prototype these days. I know we have been clamoring for the C for a long time but outside of the C and the K nothing they have offered before was really Colorado based, so I don’t get why the On30 guys get such interesting stuff and we just get more expensive monster size engines that just reinforce that you need a half-acre to do LS.

Vic Smith said:

Shawn boy you ain’t kidding there.

I have always been rather angry with Bmann that their On30 range has way more interesting models while LS offerings seamed schizophrenic at times, where is the LS version of the nifty 2-6-0, the 2-4-4-2, the Railbus & trailer, the 18-ton Heisler, the 2 cylinder Shay, …hell where is a LS 8-ton Porter ???

All of them smaller more versatile engines that could work easily on a much wider range of layout sizes. I really dont believe the notion that LS will only accept Colorado prototype these days. I know we have been clamoring for the C for a long time but outside of the C and the K nothing they have offered before was really Colorado based, so I don’t get why the On30 guys get such interesting stuff and we just get more expensive monster size engines that just reinforce that you need a half-acre to do LS.

I always wondered the same Vic. The ON30 collection is so much better. I love the weathered look of the rolling stock and the engines are so much cooler. I wish they would produce that stuff in LS especially that Heisler. If they do well in On30 why would it not work in LS? Who knows if they did make them in LS it might helpe the hobby. Maybe because its LS and they think everything has to be large Lol. We are the forgotten ones Vic. Thats one of the reason why Im into live steam more. They have some neat little steamers out their.

Curiously, when you read some of the On30 forums, they’re wishing for the locos Bachmann makes in 1:20. What’s that about green grass?

(Just remember–the grass may be greener, but it needs to be mowed more often.)

Still, I agree; I’d love to see their On30 mogul offered in 1:20.3. But then again, how close would that be to LGB’s ubiquitous 2-6-0, which you can buy for anywhere from $300 - $1200 depending on what kind of electronic stuff is crammed in and whether it’s got “Coca-Cola” stamped on its tender. (If you want to talk weird pricing for no justifiable reason–there’s the poster-child for you.) LGB already has a 1:20 porter, which you can pick up for under $300. The railbus would be cool, though if I recall, it’s a Brazilian prototype (or South American at least). Would we hear the same criticism we heard of the Mexican prototype for the “Connie” if they did the On30 raibus instead of one of a US prototype?

I also agree on your point of working to dispel the myth that you “need” a half acre and 10’ radius curves to do large scale, but what do you consider “monster size?” Clearly the K falls into that category, but the C-19 is smaller than the “Connie,” much more comparable in size to the 4-6-0. The geared locos–especially the Climax–are on the small side of the equation, too. Add to that the Forney, the 0-4-0, etc… I think Bachmann does a good job of offering a good mix of prototypes “big” and “small.” It’s really up to us to show what can be done in the smaller spaces. Speaking for myself, the “Connie” is probably the “biggest” loco that looks good on my railroad. The K just dwarfs it, and the 2-6-6-2, despite being overall smaller than the “Connie,” just looks massive because it’s a 2-6-6-2.

The “big” problem with 1:20.3 in terms of the space needed isn’t so much the locomotives, but the rolling stock. Unless you’re modeling an industrial narrow gauge or one that’s running c. 1870, 1880s equipment (comparable in size to LGB and Bachmann’s 1:22 stuff), the rolling stock just takes up an inordinate amount of space–especially passenger cars! You can’t really go below 5’ radius with the 1:20 rolling stock from Bachmann or Accucraft and not have it look like an elephant squeezing into a rabbit hole. Trouble is, modeling those kinds of industrial railroads or such an early time period isn’t popular with modelers. There’s equipment out there to do so, but it’s just not something you see. So, when you see 1:20 railroads where the equipment looks like it’s got proper room to spread its legs, it’s on “larger” railroads with at least 5’ radius, if not more. They may not be “large” railroads in terms of total space or track (heck, mine’s all of 30’ x 60’ with 300’ of track), but the curves are fairly broad.

Later,

K

Shawn Viggiano said:

The price of the Bachmann Forney always made me laugh. Its a great looking Forney but that price you can get it in live steam. Yes the detail is not their on the live steam one, but to me its a no brainer.

I still love my Hartland Big John.

Picked mine up for $250.00 and $275.00 NIB. I wish steam was available at that price…I’d consider trying it! Was “lucky” to get $325.00 on ebay for one of them when I sold it.

Yes Kevin I know what your talking about, but electronics or not the LGB porter is way way overpriced considering it was the same all plastic engine that was offered for $75 in the Toytrain lineup, so if Bmann offered it just around their current sidetanker’s price, they’d do quite well.

BTW check out Uncle Russ’ Mining and Industrial Annual, there is a pic from a logging line here in the US that shows the EXACT same railbus as the On30 version, it was apparently made by a company called FWD mfrs., they made supply trucks for the US army in WW1.

Hi TOC and others:

TOC, thank you for the info.

One lady at TrainWorld told me that the large scale sales volume went way down when LGB went out of business.

The Bachmann ON30 Heisler would be great in 1:20.3 but the ON30 guys are complaining about the ON30 Heisler pricing so I guess a 1:20.3 Heisler would be another 800.00 locomotive.

Indoor layouts is what LGB developed their product for as in Germany folks do not have the outdoor back yards as we do in North America.

Maybe Bachmann should try to develop indoor layout compatible largescale locos and rolling stock as did LGB.

Norman

Norman I like that indoor idea. I have been a fan of indoor layouts in LS for along time and would be glad to see more smaller type stock.

Quote Norman : “…so I guess a 1:20.3 Heisler would be another 800.00 locomotive.”

Norman,

other than a very small prototype (hardly likely considering Bachmann’s direction), I seriously doubt that we will see any further releases less than current C-19 pricing. This will be the benchmark locomotive for further production and pricing.

I am sure that Philly must be itching for an east coast prototype and thus a big EBT engine would be a logical choice. Colorado railroads were known to be highly disliked by Mr.Riley and it seemed the east coast was more to his liking. Perhaps a 1/20.3 scale and I do mean ‘scale’ Annie is on the cards. However, how will one economically justify a slightly smaller 1/22.5 scale loco for about one third the price of its ‘big brother’? I cannot see the Big Hauler Annie being phased out though as it is the bread and butter choice for the newcomer.

Tim,

To your earlier observation, I am tooling for a Bachmann Trolley replacement drive. SOON.

Barry

Barry,

it seems that there is always someone requesting a better drive for the Bachmann trolley. Some fit LGB or USA Trains motor blocks, but there always seem to be compromises that need to be made.

No doubt your drive will be superb and find acceptance as have your other drives.

I have one, an early prototype. Lead weights in the ends. Surprisingly powerful, and avoids the QC issues that seem to be involved with the OEM drives.

I have kept but one trolley, probably will stay as track powered, as I can find no place for it on the railroad.

TOC

Kevin Strong said:

“I believe there is a real issue in the entire hobby with the price increases. Lots of newbies…won’t be here for long. They’ll be gone.”

But without the price increases, lots of manufacturers won’t be here for long. The solution is to strike that ever-so-delicate balance between quality and affordability. The good news is that it’s us–the modelers–who get to dictate where that point lies. We vote with our wallets. The 1:20 Spectrum rolling stock is priced where it is because we–as a market–have said we’re comfortable with that price. Obviously we’d gladly pay less, but manufacturers charge what the market will bear, and it seems it will bear $100 to $150 per car. Time will tell if the market will bear $800 locomotives over the long term. It won’t if there’s no perceived value for the investment, but so long as the value is there and people are buying, more power to 'em.

The newcomer will always have inroads into the hobby. Swap meets, ebay, buy/sell forums… there’s always going to be modelers looking to unload stuff, so there will always be eager newcomers (and long-time modelers) looking for bargains. I know a good number of modelers who have never bought any equipment new. So if the manufacturers can stay afloat with $800 locomotives, let them, and then let the 2nd-hand market take care of getting those locos into the hands of modelers who don’t want to pay that high a price.

So I wouldn’t worry too much about $800 locomotives killing the hobby. If that’s too high a price, the manufacturers will know pretty quickly when they don’t sell them, respond in kind and release the next loco at a lower price point. Hopefully they’d keep the mechanical quality in check and maybe cut back on some of the superfluous details to cut costs, or pick simpler prototypes, or… They want to stay in business as much as we want to save money but still have high-quality trains.

Later,

K

Make no sense. You start out with “But without the price increases, lots of manufacturers won’t be here for long” and end with “So I wouldn’t worry too much about $800 locomotives killing the hobby. If that’s too high a price, the manufacturers will know pretty quickly when they don’t sell them, respond in kind and release the next loco at a lower price point.”

Which is it? Without the price increase they’re gone, but if they don’t sell they’ll eat the ones that don’t sell and come up with cheaper ones later?

Good Lord.

TOC

“Which is it? Without the price increase they’re gone, but if they don’t sell they’ll eat the ones that don’t sell and come up with cheaper ones later?”

A manufacturer used to widgets that cost them $20 to produce and sold them for $50. Now their widgets cost them $50 to produce. Obviously they can’t sell them for the same $50 or they don’t make any money. That’s the “without the price increases, lots of manufacturers won’t be here for long” part. They have to raise the prices to keep up with increased production costs.

If the $80 widgets sell, then they’ve got a market and they can bring the next widget out at $80 as well. If the market decides that $80 is too much to pay for a widget, then the manufacturer has lots of widgets sitting in the warehouse. Sitting on those (or blowing them out at $60 so to at least recoup their investment) isn’t going to hurt them too much. It’s not healthy, but by itself, it won’t put them out of business. However, the next widget they produce can’t sell for $80. They’re going to have to adjust their production costs so that they can afford to sell their widgets for less than $80. That’s the “…respond in kind and release the next loco at a lower price point.”

The buyer decides what the market will bear in terms of costs. The manufacturer then has to adjust what they make and how they make it to meet those limits. However, the buyer has to be realistic in their expectations of what they can get for the money they’re spending.

Later,

K

Kevin,

the main problem is that they (Bachmann) still have new old stock widgets in the marketplace selling for around $250.00 and suddenly the new widget costs $800.00. OK, the new widget is a far cry for some and yet little perceived difference to others, but still a multifold increase in market price does disturb some.

Bachmann cannot simply rely on the ‘few’ well heeled hobbyists to support the industry. As I stated before, many, given the choice would buy a $250.00 Connie or two or three rather than a $900.00 C-19 (it seems to have increased in price the last few weeks from $800.00).

Not all in the hobby will notice the difference nor have the knowledge to gauge how accurate the detail is. For many a BIG loco is a BIG loco and if what on offer is CHEAP then that is where they will spend their dollars. I was impressed with the Connie when released however, it did not suit my railroad due its size (and scale).

It seems that of those on this thread in favour of the C-19 either have several versions or have an Accucraft loco or two in their engine shed. This to me highlights the high disposable income level of those who purchase the C-19. Can Bachmann survive just on this clientele?

Obviously, Bachmann will learn from their experiences with the Connie and 45-tonner and limit production to ensure wharehouse stock is not found ten years after production ceased. This will increase the per unit price for future production and potentially limit just what is produced.

A trend in current British “OO” railways is retailers commissioning new products. The retailer contracts a certain production run and retains the sole rights to market the goods. Much like LGB with their strange registered brandname production (Coca-Cola for instance) in the 1990’s. This way, the retailer takes the risk with the manufacturer only being responsible for producing the items at no cost to themselves. Definately a ‘win’ situation for the manufacturer.

However, therein lies the problem. Who in largescale has the financial backing to commission such a product? Perhaps we will see potential purchasers laying out financial expressions of interest in new production. The manufacturer and retailer then only become commissioning agents with the consumer left holding the can (hopefully not empty). Definately not a ‘win’ situation for the consumer but most likely the only way future production may reach the market. By design new production would be definately very low volume and thus unit price HIGH. Some on Briitish eBay take advantage of the commissioned models and purchase multiple items purely with the intention of onselling at a price far higher than retail. Thus price scalping becomes an issue and genuine purchasers are left paying more for their goods.

The quoted price of the Connie at US$250 is, I believe, only at that level because Bachmann is stuck with a bunch of stock they cannot sell because the word has got around that they have a crap drive that will eat the main drive gear. It is not even a chance it will happen. It is a definite it will happen. The older the stock the more likely that failure will be sooner rather than later.

I have yet to see an advertisement that clearly states what will eventually happen after you buy it at the bargain basement price.

If Bachmann ever run the Connie again and fix the problems, it will be around the US$800 + plus mark and certainly not US$250.