John Joseph Sauer said:
http://www.dailyfinance.com/2009/12/29/then-vs-now-how-prices-have-changed-since-1999/
John(?),
just out of interest did you actually read the link you referred to. It simply does not back up any hypothesis that the cost of living is exhorbitantly higher now than back in 1999. There are some standout items in the list, but then there are some that are a suprise. Some small ticket items have increased substantially, but not too much of a drain on the pocket.
Of interest, a base Toyota Camry is only 11% more expensive than in 1999. A Harley-Davidson Sportser is 25% more expensive and suprise suprise, a $100k mortgage is actually cheaper by 30% than in 1999.
Your link does nothing to indicate that a $250.00 locomotive should equate to a current day $800/00+ locomotive. The facts you supply do not substantiate other than a roughly 40-50% increase maximum.
And not a whole lot is 300% higher.
Except maybe the BS levels.
But, they were always high anyway.
TOC
Tim Brien said:
Apart from a few detail items just how much difference is there?
Tim let me try to answer your question. The 2-8-0 connie and the C19 are vastly different. If you put a BBT gear box in a Connie you are getting closer. Barry uses an 8000 Pitman Motor. the C-19 uses a 9000 series motor which has almost 3 times the torque.
http://www.ametektip.com/Ametek/PublicPDF/PittmanExpress.pdf
Bachmann has released 3 videos on the C-19. The first describes some of the features. I suggest you watch it as I think it begins to answer your questions. At 1:30 into the video you can see the insides of this locomotive and if you have been into a connie you notice a vast difference. About the only part it shares with the connie is the bell. (but not the bell holder)
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/embed/-uvG6caPtrU[/youtube]
Not mentioned in the video is the die cast tender trucks with electrical pickups in the sideframe bearings to avoid drag. A far cry from the connie tender trucks.
Hope this helps answer your question.
Stan
PS tried to embed the youtube video but not sure how
Barry also uses a 9000. I have one. Called the Super Connie.
Nobody said they were the same locos. Just the same number of bits and wheels.
And three times the street cost.
TOC
Oh, and we’ve never, ever had any issues with the 8000 series that I ever heard of.
I know it was not the intent of this thread, but I think I am convinced…
I will be buying the C-19.
Mark V said:
I know it was not the intent of this thread, but I think I am convinced…
I will be buying the C-19.
What, No build Thread ??? Tisk Tisk Tisk
Here’s a couple of photos from the Bachmann C-19 video…
(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/sparkyjoe/_forumfiles/C19_chassis_01.jpg)
(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/sparkyjoe/_forumfiles/C19_chassis_02.jpg)
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3799/9063405874_46f454a942.jpg)
This shows the Cast BBT drivers for 2-8-0 that he’s had about 15 years. I am certain Barry will have Bumblebee Grey ones from a photo taken many years ago up soon.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7411/9061177129_b72d3e593e.jpg)
Another angle…so we’ve had these for 15 years.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3736/9063406038_00504629a0.jpg)
Just because someone thinks BBT only has 8000 series Pittmans, here is mine with a 9000 series. All Connie gearboxes are upgradeable to 9000 series, altho I have never found a need to do it.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3739/9061177627_765e31d408.jpg)
And another.
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2879/9063407258_948fc6cc55.jpg)
9000 and gearbox on Connie #3 axle.
Just because someone wants you to think they are innovative, like the sliding axles on the K-27, always a good idea to check first.
BBT has had not only these cast drivers (cast brass centres, stainless tyres shrunk on), but also 2" wheels similar to 4-6-0 drivers, cast brass and stainless, with the counterweights solid so they really balance the drivers.
TOC
Thanks, Greg!
One point that maybe has not been considered as prices spiral out of control is a condition called “Mazak rot”. Google the condition and see how damaging it is to models.
Mazak rot occurs when a minusculey small impurity is introduced into the molten Mazak when die casting. It seems that Kader is well known for both its “OO” scale Bachmann ‘Blue Riband’ range and some Hornby models. It generally occurs with the loco simply stored in its packaging and is generally apparent as cracks in the loco body as the Mazak chassis expands as the rot progresses.
The company will warranty replacement chassis only if parts are available. Some waited several years before another batch production run enabled spare chassis to become available and some simply did not get satisfaction. Hornby did, when possible, offer replacement locomotives if available. Given the limited quantity production runs these days replacement models are a rarity. Hornby will honour their warranty by offering credit coupons on their online web store. Alas, they charge full retail, thus one may not be able to obtain a replacement model identical to the one damaged.
Generally, if rot is found then the actual batch number can be traced to specific models. With the growing trend of die cast chassis and bodies on our models how long before the dreaded rot afflicts us and with limited batch numbers produced will we get replacements?
I remember back in the 1960’s when Cox made beautiful magnesium alloy chassis for their 1/24 scale slot racing cars. They were super light weight. I purchased several kits on sellout only to find that the chassis had basically crumbled away. We know of plastic disintegration and one day we will find Mazak rot in our models. It only takes a very small impurity to affect the entire pour.
Mazak rot is Zinkpest (zinc) in German and Märklin had plenty of it in the past. Hundreds of posts in the German fora what a crock it is. BTW it also occurs in diecast cars.
Mark V said:
I know it was not the intent of this thread, but I think I am convinced…
I will be buying the C-19.
Mark,
unless I was reading another thread, I cannot see the intent of this thread was to scare people off purchasing the C-19. The thread is about Bachmann’s current pricing policy and it s past pricing policy, by comparing the C-19 pricing to a past production, but to me very similar locomotive as regards complexity, the Connie.
Some will attempt to show that the price comparison is unfair as the C-19 is far more complex and thus more expensive to produce. The C-19 has a Pittman 9000 motor and gearbox and the Connie has a cheap as chips stock Chinese motor. However, given the online parts pricing for the Pittman motor and gearbox is $60.00, then the ‘true value’ on the production line is most likely around $20.00. Simply stating the loco has a better motor drive is not sufficient to justify a massive price increase.
The C-19 has a die-cast inside frame chassis. The Connie has a die-cast outside frame chassis. Some will say the inside frame is far more complex and so much better than the old Connie chassis. I am yet to be convinced as photographs do not show the assumed complexity.
The C-19 is a beautiful model and if you want it then purchase it as I am sure you will be pleased with it.
Do I smell planned obsolescence? 
Tim Brien said:
Mark V said:
I know it was not the intent of this thread, but I think I am convinced…
I will be buying the C-19.
Mark,
unless I was reading another thread, I cannot see the intent of this thread was to scare people off purchasing the C-19. The thread is about Bachmann’s current pricing policy and it s past pricing policy, by comparing the C-19 pricing to a past production, but to me very similar locomotive as regards complexity, the Connie.
Some will attempt to show that the price comparison is unfair as the C-19 is far more complex and thus more expensive to produce. The C-19 has a Pittman 9000 motor and gearbox and the Connie has a cheap as chips stock Chinese motor. However, given the online parts pricing for the Pittman motor and gearbox is $60.00, then the ‘true value’ on the production line is most likely around $20.00. Simply stating the loco has a better motor drive is not sufficient to justify a massive price increase.
The C-19 has a die-cast inside frame chassis. The Connie has a die-cast outside frame chassis. Some will say the inside frame is far more complex and so much better than the old Connie chassis. I am yet to be convinced as photographs do not show the assumed complexity.
The C-19 is a beautiful model and if you want it then purchase it as I am sure you will be pleased with it.
True! Nobody says don’t buy the bloody thing! If you’ve got the pockets that are deep enough, go for it!
It is very bad for the Bachmann Shills when Bachmann’s own on-line catalog lists the retail price for the parts. As Tim said, look at the price difference of the gear boxes.
Yeah, the 4-6-0 at least in Version 5 had a cast plastic frame. Still takes tooling to make the mould.
The Connie frame, if you’ve ever had one down to parade rest, is really something. Should I ever get to the point of actually scrapping a Connie completely, I might mount a frame on a flatcar just for grins.
But we do know the Ames Super Socket, all by itself, no wiring, retails for close to a hundred bucks.
So, you can add that stuff in.
The big question marks have been on how much materials and production costs have increased in 11 years past the Connie.
There are many factors, as many have brought forth in this discussion.
It is your choice, and yours alone, to purchase one. Nobody is twisting your arm, and I am certain there is glee in Philly to see you have decided to buy one!
TOC
Tim Brien said:
Mark V said:
I know it was not the intent of this thread, but I think I am convinced…
I will be buying the C-19.
Mark,
unless I was reading another thread, I cannot see the intent of this thread was to scare people off purchasing the C-19. The thread is about Bachmann’s current pricing policy and it s past pricing policy, by comparing the C-19 pricing to a past production, but to me very similar locomotive as regards complexity, the Connie.
Some will attempt to show that the price comparison is unfair as the C-19 is far more complex and thus more expensive to produce. The C-19 has a Pittman 9000 motor and gearbox and the Connie has a cheap as chips stock Chinese motor. However, given the online parts pricing for the Pittman motor and gearbox is $60.00, then the ‘true value’ on the production line is most likely around $20.00. Simply stating the loco has a better motor drive is not sufficient to justify a massive price increase.
The C-19 has a die-cast inside frame chassis. The Connie has a die-cast outside frame chassis. Some will say the inside frame is far more complex and so much better than the old Connie chassis. I am yet to be convinced as photographs do not show the assumed complexity.
The C-19 is a beautiful model and if you want it then purchase it as I am sure you will be pleased with it.
Tim…What I meant was the original intent of the thread was to discuss Bachmann MSRP pricing…But so much has been made of the C-19 (not the original intent) that I have been subjected to a sort of “review”. All the additional exposure to the C-19 has made it clear I would like to own one.
Street price is not that far from a Connie with a BBT drive and it appears to be every bit the equal…and perhaps a bit more.
Edit: Regarding the comparison of a Connie to the C-19…I will gladly welcome the added electronics. Having converted a stock Connie to R/C I am sad to see the loss of the track powered option (probably a way to wire around this if I gave it enough thought). I have grown to like the Track/Battery switch in Bachmann’s latest offerings and wire my receiver/batteries accordingly so I can use both. Already proven useful as just today one of my K’s gave up before I was ready to put it away. Switch to track and I was on the go again.
Curiousity got the better of me. Perhaps I was missing something? I went to the Bachmann You-tube site and looked at the C-19 video. Link included.
http://www.youtube.com/user/bachmanntrains
OK, I watched the video plus the GardenTrains version and came away thinking what is all the hype? The old 4-4-0 and 2-6-0 locomotives had working valve gear and Johnson bar. Perhaps the C-19 also alters the valve position via the reversing rod connection to the gearbox. Is this really essential for smooth running, or the famous ‘WOW’ factor (wrong manufacturer, but same BS!!!).
As I have stated many times, a beautiful locomotive but is it really that much of an advancement over production locomotives from ten plus years ago? I am still not convinced. The drive just does not look like it is ten years further advanced than other Bachmann drives.
The main difference I see is that we no longer have street pricing to reflect the true cost of the locomotive. I seriously doubt that Bachmann have been subsidising our hobby all these years by selling their locomotives below cost, so can only assume that street pricing was the true value of the locomotive and MSRP the full dealer markup price to ensure a healthy per unit profit on each sale. The end result is that Bachmann get sales by limiting production (over previous production numbers) and sellers get their full markup profit. A win/win for manufacturer and retailer. The consumer gets a ‘win’ with an excellent product but at a cost increase.
I hear ya Tim…I don’t like the price but as I have paid a fraction of MSRP for almost everything I own I guess I was going to have to ‘pay to play’ eventually. Waiting for prices to come down on “close-outs” may not be an option in the leaner production runs we see today.
My current Connie cost me $250.00 if I remember correctly. It was “used” but never run. Popped another $12.00 for a replacement gear I have yet to have a need for (No doubt I will someday). It is not my favorite engine, but I like it.
OK, now look at the 4-4-0 from a decade or more ago. Listen to the features and remember these also sold for around $225.00 street price (MSRP was around $800.00). Is the C-19 ten years ahead of this loco? The 4-4-0 had working Stephenson valve gear, cab detail, firebox glow, opening firebox door, three point metal frame construction plus a ‘precision’(?) 5-pole motor and a heavy duty gearbox(?) (all Bachmann stated features).
Mark,
you will be very happy with your new purchase. We simply have to come to terms that times have changed and competition has been removed from the marketing equation. Thus near to full retail will be the ‘normal’ (street price) price in the future. I doubt we will see closeout sales on newer production as it seems production numbers are being strictly controlled. In smaller scales some find that unless they preorder an item then production is so limited that the item sells out shortly after release.
I have several 4-4-0’s and 2-6-0’s. Small prototype, but geez, the details are there (2-6-0 more so), and the functioning, adjustable Stephenson valve gear is something I have wanted to gut and put on an older 4-6-0 for drill.
You have a cast frame. Cast drivers, Motor and gearbox. Boiler shell and cab.
How much more is the latest one worth than the older ones when the amount of work appears to be the same?
And, when the K-27 streeted cheaper?
THAT’s what the thread is about, and the direct comparison of the older 2-8-0 to the newer was brought in specifically because we could compare…if you recall, no other can be so compared.
There wasn’t an early Spud, nor Meyer, for Forney.
We do have the pair of 2-8-0’s.
TOC
Tim Brien said:
Mark,
you will be very happy with your new purchase. We simply have to come to terms that times have changed and competition has been removed from the marketing equation. Thus near to full retail will be the ‘normal’ (street price) price in the future. I doubt we will see closeout sales on newer production as it seems production numbers are being strictly controlled. In smaller scales some find that unless they preorder an item then production is so limited that the item sells out shortly after release.
Read Wendell’s thread on Ownership of Bachmann and mfg. same? in this very same forum, and the wikipedia link.
Competition being removed…and it may get a whole lot worse in the very near future.
TOC