Large Scale Central

Aluminum Track Options

Track and Trestles
#54

A QUESTION:

Has there been any credible study showing the difference between brass track and aluminum track as to electrical conductivity?

There is certainly a difference in rail cost making such a consideration meaningful.

For example: a 100’ length of aluminum track with a volt meter at one both ends. Same for brass track in same guage. Power is applied at specific voltages and then measured at the other end. Considering power requirements are important there may be misinformation regarding the degree of power loss, if any, using aluminum track.

#55

Wendell, that test would only work if a load were applied. With no load, no current would flow and there would be no losses.

I know aluminum wire was used in homes years ago, and its still used in the power mast. So there would be some loss, and a bit more then brass (a copper alloy) but its probably not a lot more. The issue with aluminum is that it oxidizes quicker then brass, and the oxidation is not conductive.

#56

Wendell, as much as it pains me to say it, I agree with David. The issue with aluminum and track power is the oxidation. Its rapid and thick.

If you are dead rail, that can work to your advantage, as it gives “tooth,” to the railhead. I know you asked in reference to track power, but I wanted to use that example to point out what can happen to aluminum rail.

#57

Steve Featherkile said:

Wendell, as much as it pains me to say it, I agree with David. The issue with aluminum and track power is the oxidation. Its rapid and thick.

If you are dead rail, that can work to your advantage, as it gives “tooth,” to the railhead. I know you asked in reference to track power, but I wanted to use that example to point out what can happen to aluminum rail.

Gee thanks Steve. (http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-tongue-out.gif)What did I do, that it pains you to have to agree with me?

#58

Steve Featherkile said:

If you are dead rail, that can work to your advantage, as it gives “tooth,” to the railhead.

So, I guess I should use that AL rail I bought to replace the SS on my curving grade and use the SS on the flats. Another bad I dea you guys have put in my head (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-surprised.gif)

#59

Oxydation:

Is the challenge to aluminum rail the increased amount of cleaning needed compared to brass rail so track power works? Is twice the amount a fair judgment from those who have both?

Secondly-

If battery power is used, is the oxidation so severe that cleaning is imperative to enable stable operation?

I have considered using aluminum rail simply because of the dramatic difference in cost. Now, I push a drywall sander armed with a 280 grit mesh over the brass rail which is needed if a four day pause in running using track power. With aluminum, will I fact be cleaning prior to each run? Will there be a noticeable loss of rail surface from a need to use heavier grit sanding?

#60

The oxidation of aluminum rail must occur when current is running through it. I haven’t noticed any on mine. With Bat/RC the only cleaning I do, if any, is from the rain splashing dirt and grit on the track (and the usual assortment of sticks and twigs).

#61

I live in western North Carolina and use 250 AL rai. I clean the track a couple of times each summer and have no problem with running trains on rack power. However, I do have feeders to the track every 10-15’. l

#62

Wendell Hanks said:

Oxydation:

Is the challenge to aluminum rail the increased amount of cleaning needed compared to brass rail so track power works? Is twice the amount a fair judgment from those who have both?

Secondly-

If battery power is used, is the oxidation so severe that cleaning is imperative to enable stable operation?

I have considered using aluminum rail simply because of the dramatic difference in cost. Now, I push a drywall sander armed with a 280 grit mesh over the brass rail which is needed if a four day pause in running using track power. With aluminum, will I fact be cleaning prior to each run? Will there be a noticeable loss of rail surface from a need to use heavier grit sanding?

Wendell, why would you need to clean track if you are running on battery power? Just wipe off the grit and remove the twigs.

#63

Bill Hunteman said:

I live in western North Carolina and use 250 AL rai. I clean the track a couple of times each summer and have no problem with running trains on rack power. However, I do have feeders to the track every 10-15’. l

Bill, Like you I ran track powered trains on aluminum rail on the ground for almost 10 years and had no more problem with it than any other rail type (brass or N silver, no experience with Stainless).

However no one really wants to know or accept this information.

The Garden Railroading myth is that you can’t run track power on aluminum rail, and that myth must be perpetuated at all costs (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif).

#64

There are many people who have successfully used track power with aluminum rail, and also without expensive rail clamps.

A major issue in this hobby is there are so many people that say “this is the only way, and I know it, and I have proved it”.

But everyone’s environment is different, moisture, soil, what trains they run, etc. I was told when I started that DCC outside was impossible, not difficult, that it would not work at all. Hah!

So Wendell, it might work and it might not, depending on your criteria for how often to remove oxidation is “working or not working”, and moisture in the air and watering, and if your trains have skates or not, or how often you run trains, etc.

It’s probably safe to say it will be more work than brass, but how much more? You can only find out by trying. Put in about 20 feet and see how it goes, a low cost experiment.

Greg

#65

Rick, and Greg, I haven’t said that track power cannot be done on aluminum, just that it can be more difficult. I know what you are saying, and yes I believed the myth, until I saw it proved wrong, a few times. It can be done, and it works well. I just do not know how much more (if any more then brass) cleaning it will need, due to the oxidation.

#66

David, I do not think these comments were aimed at you personally.

My comments definitely are not. We love you. Shut up rooster. (just for good measure)

Greg

#67

Somewhere someone had a post about an abandoned aluminum track that was being removed after 10 years of non use, if I remember right he hooked up a power and ran an engine, he never said it ran good but the fact that after 10years it would still conduct power makes it sound like a lot of the stuff is just hype

#68

Greg, I know that you weren’t referencing me. I was just clarifying my position.

I do agree there are too many folks, in all professions and hobbies, who reinforce myths, and/or insist that things can only be done the way that they do them.

That’s why we sometimes “need to think outside the box.” Except for Devon, he needs to stay in his box and concentrate on one thing at a time. He is going with aluminum rail, but he is also going battery power, so this thread doesn’t directly concern him.

Wasn’t there an article about someone who made his own track, using wood ties and aluminum bar stock?

#69

Greg Elmassian said:

David, I do not think these comments were aimed at you personally.

My comments definitely are not. We love you. Shut up rooster. (just for good measure)

Greg

No David my comment was not directed at you personally but at the hobby in general.

I built my first layout in 1997 about 100 feet of aluminum track on wood ties, all hand laid.

I used aluminum rail mainly because everyone on the forums said it couldn’t be done successfully

using track power, and I was and am cheap.

I had very good luck in a hot dry climate with heavy irrigation and cold wet winters. I ran all the time on

this loop until I started my table tops in 2005 than ran less often on it until it was removed in 2008-09.

Some where on this forum is a thread about tearing out that old track system and how well it held up.

My point is that every few months for years the topic of aluminum rail and track power would come up on the forums and

everybody would say that it can’t be done successfully. One or two of us would come on and say "hey, over here,

we are doing it and here is how", nobody listened and the myth would continue. I long ago gave up being an advocate

but sometimes I just can’t help myself(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-laughing.gif)

Greg is completely correct in that climate, location and soil mineralogy will play an important part in your success using

aluminum rail/track power. Not to forget correct installation to begin with.

Aluminum starts oxidizing as soon as it is cut or cleaned so you can never beat the physics. The thing to remember is that

the oxidation “slows” electrical current transfer it does not stop it. I found that a Scotch Brite on a sanding pole every few weeks

during the running season was more than enough cleaning to keep running. Keep plastic wheels off of aluminum rail period!!!

As usual, just my opinion

Rick

#70

More than opinion, valuable, first hand experience.

Many times the opinions expressed are from people just guessing, but sometimes presented as facts.

I’ve po’d a bunch of people on forums, but it gets my dander up when people profess to know when they are guessing. There’s no substitute for real experience from a guy who has actually done it.

Kudos Rick.

Greg

#71

When Bachmann first came out with their 1:20 locos, they shot their instructional videos on my dad’s railroad. Most of the shots were taken on the lower end of the railroad, which was laid in 1985 with aluminum rails and absolutely no thought to track power as we had just converted to batteries. They had to jumper a few rail joiners here and there, but for the most part, a quick cleaning of the tops of the rails and they could run trains for each of the shots. I don’t know that they could have gotten around the entire railroad (the switches aren’t wired), but they could run far enough for the shots they needed to take. Not bad for a battery-powered line.

For the 5 years we did run track power (1980 - 1985), our biggest hindrance to proper electrical conductivity came from pine tree sap and slug slime. That affects all materials equally. My biggest “objection” to using aluminum track for track power has always stemmed from the inability of mere mortals to solder to it, thus electrical conductivity between feeders and rail, and across rail joiners was more difficult to maintain than with brass or nickel silver. With the advent of stainless rail clamps and other things, that’s not so much of a concern as it was “back in the day.” Having said that, and in spite of my positive experience and others who I know have had great success with aluminum rail, I have heard far more “it doesn’t work in my environment” stories with aluminum rail than I have with brass or stainless. That still gives me pause to recommend it unconditionally for use with track power.

Later,

K

#72

To you all-

I use track power only because of the money (lots) I spent on a “custom” power supply with four controllers and block-controlled power variances on grades over the layout. Plus, the trolley line is on stainless track with independent controls. Before you think it, everyone who has battery controls likely knows of someone who is simply too lazy or too cheap (me) to make a conversion.

Meanwhile…

I have track power and I greatly appreciate the thinking and experience of the above contributors in the evaluation of aluminum track. Now, it may be possible the myths discussed simply keep the price of aluminum track down and the brass prices up. Why, who would want to buy aluminum when conventional wisdom declares brass is the best?

Final thoughts from me regarding track:

1- Stainless is good and even better if you double up on the ties in the curve sections. Stainless is tough and loves to straighten out distorting rail width in the process. It is accurate cleaning is simplified.

2 - The totally unrealistic “Conductor” clamps really work - especially with the stainless rail. Put 'em where the concerned can’t see them.

3 - Paint the ties. Find a brand (they may be made by the same identical Chinese company) and spray rail and ties with Rustoleum plastic compatiible spray - in several flavors.

Thanks for the information and discussion, which repeatedly affirms the value of this site.

Thanks to Bob for managing it!

Wendell

#73

Wendell, you keep saying “Stainless is good and even better if you double up on the ties in the curve sections. Stainless is tough and loves to straighten out distorting rail width in the process.” I have had my stainless outside now for 14 years, and I have yet to see it straighten itself out, even just a little bit.

I painted my track, including ties, with plain old Krylon paint. I didn’t look for the plastic compatible nothin.