I live in western North Carolina and use 250 AL rai. I clean the track a couple of times each summer and have no problem with running trains on rack power. However, I do have feeders to the track every 10-15’. l
Wendell Hanks said:
Oxydation:
Is the challenge to aluminum rail the increased amount of cleaning needed compared to brass rail so track power works? Is twice the amount a fair judgment from those who have both?
Secondly-
If battery power is used, is the oxidation so severe that cleaning is imperative to enable stable operation?
I have considered using aluminum rail simply because of the dramatic difference in cost. Now, I push a drywall sander armed with a 280 grit mesh over the brass rail which is needed if a four day pause in running using track power. With aluminum, will I fact be cleaning prior to each run? Will there be a noticeable loss of rail surface from a need to use heavier grit sanding?
Wendell, why would you need to clean track if you are running on battery power? Just wipe off the grit and remove the twigs.
Bill Hunteman said:
I live in western North Carolina and use 250 AL rai. I clean the track a couple of times each summer and have no problem with running trains on rack power. However, I do have feeders to the track every 10-15’. l
Bill, Like you I ran track powered trains on aluminum rail on the ground for almost 10 years and had no more problem with it than any other rail type (brass or N silver, no experience with Stainless).
However no one really wants to know or accept this information.
The Garden Railroading myth is that you can’t run track power on aluminum rail, and that myth must be perpetuated at all costs (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif).
There are many people who have successfully used track power with aluminum rail, and also without expensive rail clamps.
A major issue in this hobby is there are so many people that say “this is the only way, and I know it, and I have proved it”.
But everyone’s environment is different, moisture, soil, what trains they run, etc. I was told when I started that DCC outside was impossible, not difficult, that it would not work at all. Hah!
So Wendell, it might work and it might not, depending on your criteria for how often to remove oxidation is “working or not working”, and moisture in the air and watering, and if your trains have skates or not, or how often you run trains, etc.
It’s probably safe to say it will be more work than brass, but how much more? You can only find out by trying. Put in about 20 feet and see how it goes, a low cost experiment.
Greg
Rick, and Greg, I haven’t said that track power cannot be done on aluminum, just that it can be more difficult. I know what you are saying, and yes I believed the myth, until I saw it proved wrong, a few times. It can be done, and it works well. I just do not know how much more (if any more then brass) cleaning it will need, due to the oxidation.
David, I do not think these comments were aimed at you personally.
My comments definitely are not. We love you. Shut up rooster. (just for good measure)
Greg
Somewhere someone had a post about an abandoned aluminum track that was being removed after 10 years of non use, if I remember right he hooked up a power and ran an engine, he never said it ran good but the fact that after 10years it would still conduct power makes it sound like a lot of the stuff is just hype
Greg, I know that you weren’t referencing me. I was just clarifying my position.
I do agree there are too many folks, in all professions and hobbies, who reinforce myths, and/or insist that things can only be done the way that they do them.
That’s why we sometimes “need to think outside the box.” Except for Devon, he needs to stay in his box and concentrate on one thing at a time. He is going with aluminum rail, but he is also going battery power, so this thread doesn’t directly concern him.
Wasn’t there an article about someone who made his own track, using wood ties and aluminum bar stock?
Greg Elmassian said:
David, I do not think these comments were aimed at you personally.
My comments definitely are not. We love you. Shut up rooster. (just for good measure)
Greg
No David my comment was not directed at you personally but at the hobby in general.
I built my first layout in 1997 about 100 feet of aluminum track on wood ties, all hand laid.
I used aluminum rail mainly because everyone on the forums said it couldn’t be done successfully
using track power, and I was and am cheap.
I had very good luck in a hot dry climate with heavy irrigation and cold wet winters. I ran all the time on
this loop until I started my table tops in 2005 than ran less often on it until it was removed in 2008-09.
Some where on this forum is a thread about tearing out that old track system and how well it held up.
My point is that every few months for years the topic of aluminum rail and track power would come up on the forums and
everybody would say that it can’t be done successfully. One or two of us would come on and say "hey, over here,
we are doing it and here is how", nobody listened and the myth would continue. I long ago gave up being an advocate
but sometimes I just can’t help myself(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-laughing.gif)
Greg is completely correct in that climate, location and soil mineralogy will play an important part in your success using
aluminum rail/track power. Not to forget correct installation to begin with.
Aluminum starts oxidizing as soon as it is cut or cleaned so you can never beat the physics. The thing to remember is that
the oxidation “slows” electrical current transfer it does not stop it. I found that a Scotch Brite on a sanding pole every few weeks
during the running season was more than enough cleaning to keep running. Keep plastic wheels off of aluminum rail period!!!
As usual, just my opinion
Rick
More than opinion, valuable, first hand experience.
Many times the opinions expressed are from people just guessing, but sometimes presented as facts.
I’ve po’d a bunch of people on forums, but it gets my dander up when people profess to know when they are guessing. There’s no substitute for real experience from a guy who has actually done it.
Kudos Rick.
Greg
When Bachmann first came out with their 1:20 locos, they shot their instructional videos on my dad’s railroad. Most of the shots were taken on the lower end of the railroad, which was laid in 1985 with aluminum rails and absolutely no thought to track power as we had just converted to batteries. They had to jumper a few rail joiners here and there, but for the most part, a quick cleaning of the tops of the rails and they could run trains for each of the shots. I don’t know that they could have gotten around the entire railroad (the switches aren’t wired), but they could run far enough for the shots they needed to take. Not bad for a battery-powered line.
For the 5 years we did run track power (1980 - 1985), our biggest hindrance to proper electrical conductivity came from pine tree sap and slug slime. That affects all materials equally. My biggest “objection” to using aluminum track for track power has always stemmed from the inability of mere mortals to solder to it, thus electrical conductivity between feeders and rail, and across rail joiners was more difficult to maintain than with brass or nickel silver. With the advent of stainless rail clamps and other things, that’s not so much of a concern as it was “back in the day.” Having said that, and in spite of my positive experience and others who I know have had great success with aluminum rail, I have heard far more “it doesn’t work in my environment” stories with aluminum rail than I have with brass or stainless. That still gives me pause to recommend it unconditionally for use with track power.
Later,
K
To you all-
I use track power only because of the money (lots) I spent on a “custom” power supply with four controllers and block-controlled power variances on grades over the layout. Plus, the trolley line is on stainless track with independent controls. Before you think it, everyone who has battery controls likely knows of someone who is simply too lazy or too cheap (me) to make a conversion.
Meanwhile…
I have track power and I greatly appreciate the thinking and experience of the above contributors in the evaluation of aluminum track. Now, it may be possible the myths discussed simply keep the price of aluminum track down and the brass prices up. Why, who would want to buy aluminum when conventional wisdom declares brass is the best?
Final thoughts from me regarding track:
1- Stainless is good and even better if you double up on the ties in the curve sections. Stainless is tough and loves to straighten out distorting rail width in the process. It is accurate cleaning is simplified.
2 - The totally unrealistic “Conductor” clamps really work - especially with the stainless rail. Put 'em where the concerned can’t see them.
3 - Paint the ties. Find a brand (they may be made by the same identical Chinese company) and spray rail and ties with Rustoleum plastic compatiible spray - in several flavors.
Thanks for the information and discussion, which repeatedly affirms the value of this site.
Thanks to Bob for managing it!
Wendell
Wendell, you keep saying “Stainless is good and even better if you double up on the ties in the curve sections. Stainless is tough and loves to straighten out distorting rail width in the process.” I have had my stainless outside now for 14 years, and I have yet to see it straighten itself out, even just a little bit.
I painted my track, including ties, with plain old Krylon paint. I didn’t look for the plastic compatible nothin.
I run Aristo SS track.
I must agree with David that I have seen no evidence of any rails straightening themselves. Including 8’ D curves that I opened to semi-straight with channel locks. They stayed where I put them.
I wonder if folks who used a single rail bender caused those corner problems with mismatched curves?
If you look at my rail you will see a couple of shades of metal and when I was on track power there were a couple of sections that weren’t the same SS; as all engines slowed down when crossing them.
I prefer to use the screws and joiners and only use a clamp where I’ve cut the rails or the threads are stripped. Clamps did not help the bad alloy sections conduct any better.
That’s my SS notebook.
John
John, as for the issue of causing the problem with a single rail-bender, I should have problems out the butt. When I built my railroad, I didn’t have a rail-bender, but what I did have was a section of patio where the slabs were misaligned. I would lay each rail on that part of the patio, step on the rail and lift the long end of the rail, “walking” it into the curve I wanted. NO, I would not recommend that method to anyone. But its how I built my railroad. Once I bought a dual rail-bender, I was able to iron out the worst kinks, and make replacement sections for the rails the deer bent up, or where I needed to realign the right of way. But most of my railroad is still the foot bent rails, still in place, still carrying trains, still in gauge, and still not causing derailments, even though the rail-bender has never touched those rails.
Does stainless “want” to straighten out on curves?
Maybe?
David (above) reports he has no problem with his stainless - 14 years of use - of it wanting to “straighten out” on curves. So why have I had instances of stainless in curves putting so much heavy pressure on the ties to warrant doubling the ties on curve sections?
Here’s my best guess:
- I used a single rail track bender - under discussion as not a first choice.
- So. Calif temperatures with 90 - 100 degrees in the summer.
- Curves are tight 5’ diameter to 7’ diameter - it’s the mining line.
Wendell, bending the rails separately may have something to do with it. When I was doing that, it took a lot of fiddling to get the 2 rails, in gauge (or darn close to it) over the length of the curve. Once I gut them as close as I could, then and only then did I put the ties on. It was the out of gauge bits at the ends of the rails, that I had to iron out with my dual rail-bender, when I finally got one.
90-100 degree temperatures. That may also be an issue, I do not know. We get summer heat here in the mid to high 90s, but my railroad is not in full sun. So most of the track on my railroad gets dappled sun, or full sun for only a couple of hours.
Tight curves, that may also be an issue. My tightest curve is about 9.5 feet diameter. The others are around 10 feet or more.
Many of my curves were bent slightly tighter then they needed to be, and then eased back out to what I wanted. I do not do that now with the rail-bender.
Another possibility; maybe your rails and mine came from different batches. That is probably true. And maybe, the different batches are slightly different alloys, or hardnesses. It was/is common for the Chinese to slip a little on the specifications of some products.
From my experience working in non ferrous metals, it was always better to bend tighter and unbend a tad. It’s almost like tempering and taking some of the spring-back out of it. With such extreme curves I’d go a bit more past ‘there’ and bring them back out.
I’ve seen expansion, with curves getting pushed outwards, but no kinks. My temps on a yearly basis range from 0 -114 degrees F. We’ve already had over 30 days of 100+. What is shade?
John
My stainless does not try to straighten itself out, down for over 10 years.
But, trackwork can expand and contract, no matter what material.
When you bend SS with a bender, it will spring back a lot from the curve you “thought” you got, but it does not “creep” or change after left alone for a few minutes.
I have one 9.5’ diameter curve, bent down from 10’ diameter, no issues.
Wendell, I think your track is moving with temperature and trying to stop it from moving is causing your issue… this is my guess.
Greg
Iv’e been to David’s and can vouch for his 5" foot radius loops at each end. He claims one to be just a touch shy of that actually.
From my view of this discussion I see on big difference. Rail being bent singly versus in tandem. In David’s case he bent them singly but then laid them beside each other to make sure the curvature matched. I’m wondering if Wendell may have two different diameters fighting each other in a few spots.
I believe another variable may be if its a full circle or oval verses a loop that may be L shaped. I believe that a circle would find the radius it wants to be and stay there, but the odd shapes would not have the even tension to hold them selves in shape the same way.