Large Scale Central

Will Largescale Trains survive the Times

I agree with Tony here - things are certainly not looking as bleak here in yUk as they are for some of you over there. Maybe it’s just that all that most folks see are the huge show layouts. One layout that has always impressed me is the small rectangular layout in a flower-bed belonging to Geoff Youngs - he also runs live steam on it…

Here in UK - this month there are TWO large-scale model train shows. One at the Royal Warwickshire Showground - the Fosse - where around 5-7000 are expected, and the other at the Peterborough East of England showground just up the road from us here, which has over 80 traders, oodles of layouts and even a visiting NG locomotive from the Ffestiniog Railway. Again, around 8000 are expected to be there.

As for Ralf’s comment - that too is worth some reading - in spite of it all, the club seems to be thriving.

Like the man said ‘you pays yer money and you takes your pick’ - me, I pick trains and guns.

tac, ig & The Lions Gate Bridge Boys

I my opinion, there are several entry points to the LS hobby:
Little kids like BIG trains and many parents are most apt to purchase the classical around the tree train that comes out once a year. The starter sets are very appealing to this demographic. Ever seen an 8-10 year old try to put a HO car on the track? Forget it. One of the problems here is that the engine chasing the caboose gets boring after Christmas is over. The trains get put to the side and more entertaining hobbies (rc cars etc. ) take over.
The LS hobby seems to take a break with many as their children are growing-up. It only makes sense, in that the everyday expenses of life make it absurd to spend $200+ on a locomotive.
As I am relatively new to the LS version of the hobby, I have noticed that most purchasers are of the demographic that have grown up kids. These are the people that can afford the absurd cost of the brass track. IMHO, it is primarily the cost of track that is making the LS hobby a difficult choice. There seem to be several reasonable alternatives to motive power and rolling stock that put it in line with other scales. I purchased a series of China knock-off cars that were about $20 each. Sure they had plastic wheels, but they looked pretty good and ran ok.

If you think the hobby is on the decline, just log on to ebay and look at the prices of anything in the LS market! The price of used track with shipping doesn’t make sense. You can buy new brass bachmann or USA track for almost the same as used. The LS market also catches the interest of the wife. It makes her a part of a great looking backyard. Mine loves the fact that it creates a backyard focal point. The other scales just don’t do this.

When I started out about 20 years ago the price of track was my big problem, as it is now. I overcame it. You could hardly buy anything in large scale other than LGB or cheap Bachmann stuf. I made most of my things and still do. The variety of items available now is really quite amazing. The hobby has grown a lot over the years. I do think you should not expect anything new for a long time, just re-paints on re-issue items. But be honest, how many of your trains do you run? I don’t have all that many, but still some may sit for months without getting on the track.

My train budget is quite small, e.g. I can’t afford Accucraft brass and rarely buy locos.
I work to 1:20.3 scale, which can be expensive if using the AMS and Spectrum stuff. I often look out for good deals on the Big Hauler stuff and use that as a basis for upscaling, if not I scratch build.

Track is an expensive investment, but I didn’t want to use very tight curves- so I bought aluminum rail and hand spiked it to wooden ties. Most of my track is done this ways so far, but it is still expanding, so this may change because hand spiking track is very time consuming!

Solutions probably would not suit everybody, as people do the hobby for various reasons and have different amounts of time.

Alec

I don’t think large scale is going away any time soon but I do believe that the next generation is getting price pinched out of the market. Think about the start up costs compared to other hobbies like RC planes and cars unless you crash that is. Track is probably the largest outlay even for a modest 100’ RR then add in a couple of switches for operations, then a decent power pack and not to mention all the prep for the site, purchase of plants that might die, and rockery etc… etc… Then when it is all set up do you want to run live steam or a little 2 axle critter? How about sound? WOW $$
I think what will keep the hobby going is just how great it is to be outside running trains in the garden and how many aspects of interest that fact can capture in the young at heart train enthusiast. Another aspect that will keep the hobby going is the amount of used equipment out there that can be had for a decent price.
I think if someone is interested in large scale to begin with they will find a way to make it work for them.
Todd

The hobby is no doubt on the decline but it will never disappear. I think there are multiple reason for the decline. I agree with Jerry. How many cars do people run? I dont have many and yet some tend to stay on the shelf often. Again look at how often do people run? I know people who have hudge layouts and lots of trains yet they run a few times a year if that. Im happy with the amount of track I have and trains. I dont really need much. I run often as well. I think the other problem is everyone wants the biggest and best of things. Have to have the largest rad track, the larges engine pulling 50-100 string of cars. Thats fine but do you need that to enjoy the hobby? I think those in the UK are on the right track. The hobby seems to do well over their. Why is that? Could it be they dont worry about track size, train size, scale ect… I have seen some great looking layouts from overseas. There are plenty of affordable trains in G scale . Look at HLW. You can get a flatcar for $19 a Gondola for $21. Go on e-bay and the old Kalamazoo or Delton stuff tend to be reasonable. I know the problem is scale. Track is expensive but do you need to start out big? I started out with 50ft of track and then little by little I bought track and expanded. The 50ft of track I started with helped me learn a lot, it got trains running, saved me money and I had a blast. Like I always say lets go back to the old way, get rid of the electronics in trains, make trains simple, dont make everything too big that most cant run on our tracks.
The problem with O scale or the smaller scales is they dont work as well in the garden. The biggest thing for me is the garden aspect of the hobby.
Nick I think you need a break from the shows and just enjoy your outdoor layout and visiting others. just have fun and dont have any pressure. . Keep it simple and have fun. I could see how shows will burn and person out. Thats why I dont get too involved. I would rather enjoy the show by walking around and talking. A club to me is just getting together at someones house and run trains. I like haveing No obligations, no fees.
The economy has not helped the hobby so you have to take that into consideration. Can we blame ourselves to certain point for the decline? (not to start a war) but lets face it 1:20 scale is more expensive, adding electronics does not help and making the engines bigger, so a new person coming into the hobby has to buy enough track to make his 1:20 scale stuff look ok or they now have to spend more mony on larger curves for those large engines. Is it really all about that? Maybe Im wrong and maybe I see the hobby in a much different way. How is Bachmann able to improve the indy yet still keep it at a reasonable price. They kept it simple. Or the new Piko mogul. The stuff is out their.
You can also blame the computer age. Kids would rather play their nitedo DS, go on the cell phones, Ipads computers etc… Parents are never home, they work long hours so they dont spend the quality time with their kids to get involved in hobbies.

My primary driving goal in the layout of my system (track starts today, by the way) is the amusement of children. I consider this to be a worthy goal, and if it’s done outside among the birds and trees and within the sound of the lapping waves, so much the better.

So, to compete with the blasted Nintendo and PSP and the like, I wonder whether I can some sort of fun “game” aspect to the whole thing. Switching puzzles seem to be one path, though I have not gotten the attraction. “Battle Trains” seems like a step in the wrong direction. For now, just running around will be good enough, but I am waiting for inspiration to strike.

People do hobbies because they are fun and satisfying. What is fun and satisfying varies by person and family.

Every one of us has some amount of money that they are going to divert to our hobby, so some will buy all new high dollar equipment, while others (like me!) buy good used equipment and scratch build. But, if I were building an HO empire, the money I have to invest in my hobby is the same! So, with LS, I am more than content with my stable of 3 locomotives. Now if I were building in one of the smaller scales, I might have a dozen or more locomotives, while still having spent the same amount of money. So really, if you are going large scale or some smaller scale, the cost is going to be about the same. Of course, with the expense of track, it might slow things down when you first get started, but it’ll all work out.

It will. There will always be a demand for it and there will be someone who will be willing to fill that void. That is the beauty of free markets. Although our selection of ready-to-run kits may become limited.

The issue to me isnt people already in the hobby dropping out, its new people who are opting for something else due to the prices.

The basic problem is that most of these new people are coming from smaller scales and they want to keep doing what they were doing in the smaller scales, namely mainline standard guage, which is where the highest price increaes have happened. Prices were relatively stable up to just a few years ago when Aristo dropped the price bomb right after EPL did the Big Hindenburg. Was that just price gouging on ACs part? No, history has shown that those price increases have been consistant and ongoing since then due to political and economic forces inside the PRC, so I’m fully aware of all the economic pressures that are forcing alot of these increases but its going to have a real long term impact on the hobby.

There will always be a segment that will always be able to afford the hobby, thats why Accucraft and Aster are still around, but for the more economicly pressed members of the hobby, its a tough time when all your stock and track prices rises 10-20% every year, sometimes twice a year. If you know how to do it you can do this cheaply, Mik and Me being examples, but theres a big learning curb there (kitbashing and dumpster diving) and there is also a proactive decision to model SMALLER TRAINS on SMALLER LAYOUTS, I’m sorry but Allen and me and guys like us are now a SMALL minority in this scale, and while we would be considered right in the middle of the pack in the UK or Europe we are off on the fringe of the overall mainstream US layouts, and its there that I see the hemmoraging occuring. I once thought the prices would bring a renaissance in small layout planning and building, but instead I’m seeing that if people cant afford what they want, namely large dismals pulling long trains on wide curves, they are instead saying “screw it” and staying with the smaller scales or just saying “really screw it” and go fishing!

So as time progresses I see fewer new member participating, those who do will be more affluent and will be able to afford the Brave New World prices. The major manufacturers already see the writing on the wall, which is why we are now getting smaller production runs and higher prices for those smaller runs. Its simple economics, now instead of Indy’s being blown out at Trainworld, they didnt make a zillion of them and end up eating them at $75 each, but made a handfull at around $200 and sold out of every one of them. Thats the new model folks, buy it when it comes out or you’ll have to wait till someone parts with one on Ebay.

As for me I’m still building my layout, I was fortunate to have bought all my track before the big increases hit and I have a large roster built up over the last decade (have I really been in this for that long?), I wouldnt be so fortunate today. Even with my adherence to R1s its still expensive, but buying used, kitbashing and scratchbuilding still make it accessible for me, but I’m not everyone. Not everyone has my skillsets. I still intend to cart the Pizza where ever I can to demonstrate that Yes! you can still have fun in this scale without a large backyard. So in a few years I figure guys like me will be much fewer in number, as will the overall population in LS, mostly due to a minimum of new members entering the hobby who can afford it. How many manufacturers will adapt and survive? I dunno, time will tell but I can say for certain, I am DONE with Marklin/LGB, and new Bachmann & Aristo are not so much on my radar anymore, I still buy HLW and PIKO but thats going to be pretty much it.

Expenditures rise to meet income…and nature hates a vacuum…so stuff accumulates to fill space.

Ditto on the scale thing…if I were doing N scale I’d have a dozen locos at least just to park in the engine facility…only have 6 in LS

I think with the track prices now, a lot of new buyers are looking at alum to satisfy their needs. If you find the right dealer you can by a 96 feet bundle of ME code 250 alum rail for under $100 and the tie strips for the rail for under $40. That is 50 feet of new track for under $140 and all made here in the USA. That is very comparable to ME’s On3 track prices and the HO and N-scale isn’t much cheaper either. I know that there is problems with alum, but it cam be overcome like going with battery, the roadbed has to solid like concrete. I really think the trend will be alum track with battery power for those on a tight budget . AMS code 250 is still a bargain at less than $220 a case of 60 feet.

You know, it’s kinda funny. So many people say the cost of track is the barrier to new folks getting into the hobby. Yet a couple years ago I tried offering a circle of Aristo r-1s for FREE to any newbie who could say that was the main reason they hadn’t started yet…

It took me almost 3 months to find it a home. 3 months!

So is it a real problem, or just an excuse?

Curious how aluminum track with battery power is a cheaper option than brass with straight DC. Not saying one is better but I think you need to factor in the cost of batteries and R/C gear too. Trailing cars are not cheap either and assume you want one engine type/scale/era. And of course if you buy loose rail and ties as suggested there is that $280.00 rail-bender too!

Used is certainly an option, ebay too. If you don’t need it tomorrow you can find some sweet bargains on just about everything you need.

Rodney I agree that the AMS 250 Brass is a good price, especially when you compare it to the cost of 332 Brass. I would think more people would be going that way even the one’s with 332 already on the ground looking to expand. I love my AMS 250, I like the tieplate detail and the closer to scale rail height. And it bends easily without a bender as well.

The biggest danger to railroading as a hobby isn’t the prices, it’s the irrelevance of railroads in the minds of the public in this day and age. Once upon a time railroads proudly advertised their importance as a major part of our transportation system in this country as indeed they were. About in the sixties the railroads started to mostly opt for a more typical business image and grew weary of catering to public opinion much to their eventual detriment as most people began to lose interest in the romance of the rails. A couple of railroads have since attempted to bring back their images a bit but how successful they’ve been with the general public is questionable. You don’t model what you don’ t see and you don’t see what’s unimportant to you enough to grow fond of it.

The complaints about higher prices although understandable have occurred before. I remember well when the prices on brass locomotives from Japan started soaring. The very first brass locos were of low quality but by the mid fifties when PFM was THE premo importer you could get a very fine running and well detailed engine for a very cheap price. A Ma & Pa 2-8-0 or a Santa Fe 2-8-0 for $39.50. I bought a beautiful Santa Fe 2-8-4 for $49.50 and my first two Shays, a 2 truck and a 3 truck, were $49.50 and $59.50 respectively and were beautiful runners and even had flywheels. Don’t let anybody kid you, these lokies were the full equal of anything in HO scale and were excellent runners. There were some real cheapies that lacked detail and didn’t run so well too. Try $29.50 for a 2-6-0 and about $15.00 for a 0-4-0, etc.

Prices began to rise significantly by 1970, or maybe a bit before, and the quality went down as new manufacturers were created in Korea to hold prices down.
The decent brass doubled, tripled and quadrupled in price and everyone said the hobby was going downhill. It was indeed slowed down a bit but it bounced back. The true model railroaders eventually got used to the prices and most came back. The hardest pill to swallow was seeing a cab forward that formally sold for $79.50 in brass command over $200 in plastic for example. The Tenshodo Big Boy used to go for $187.50 and an N&W Y6b for $149.50 in brass!

Price while important isn’t what will cripple the hobby, at least within reason, but simply public apathy towards railroads.

One of the problems that has been stated here is that kids are not that interested due to video games. I agree. Recently I found a guy on Craigslist seilling stuff so I went to have a look. he was about my age with 2 kids boy and girl maybe 8-10. The guy had built a double loop on a table in the basement of his fathers house and they ran trains until the Dad passed away. I bought a few things but said to the guy it is a real shame that your kids are not interested in the trains and he said they were into other things like electronic gismos and video games. Too bad to have track and nice equipment and still the kids don’t care. I got some nice deals though.
I still don’t think large scale will go away but it will probably shrink a bit.

Richard Smith said:
The biggest danger to railroading as a hobby isn't the prices, it's the irrelevance of railroads in the minds of the public in this day and age.

public apathy towards railroads.


I try to do my part. If you’re one of my Facebook friends, you are subject to a steady diet of real train photos.
And I do my best to make sure they’re included in the diet of everyone here too :wink:
Ralph

Nicholas - originator of this post - reported “After he called a couple of dealers…” was what his friend did per Nicholas encouraging him to consider large scale.

Call a couple of dealers who told him?? Call any of the four model railroad dealers left in the LA area in California and they will offer___?__as available to buy or even look at. That’s LOOK at not “I can order-anything-you-want” style looking at. Any dealer with brains would encourage Nicholas’ friend to try “O” guage or HO – that is if they want a customer. Sorry, Large Scale is essentially now a mail-order hobby — or a niche hobby with a few designated large scale dealers who sell on an order basis.

CONCLUSION:
Until the industry starts making and promoting RELIABLE starter sets – you know, the large box with the power pack 'n track that is so infrequently seen in our hobby – the hobby will continue to be for those of us already in it. Even the major players in N and HO feature starter sets and actually advertise those sets in Model RR. Wow! What an idea!

Mark V said:
Curious how aluminum track with battery power is a cheaper option than brass with straight DC. Not saying one is better but I think you need to factor in the cost of batteries and R/C gear too. Trailing cars are not cheap either and assume you want one engine type/scale/era. And of course if you buy loose rail and ties as suggested there is that $280.00 rail-bender too!

Used is certainly an option, ebay too. If you don’t need it tomorrow you can find some sweet bargains on just about everything you need.


No railbender is needed with alum code 250 with 8 foot diameter curves or greater… There is systems out there that you can do a loco with a transmitter and battery for under $100. If you going to do track power, you will need clamps to keep it reliable also and they are what, about a buck apiece now and if you use blocks for DC the cost of wire isn’t cheap either. Then if they go DCC that a lot more too. Most loco’s being produced to day are pretty simple to covert to battery also.

For a layout with let say 400 feet of track and you have 4 loco’s . I’ll use Robby’s prices for comparison

AML case of 5’ track (72 feet) $430 X 6 =$2575 + shipping ---------AML case of 332 alum (72feet) $192 X 6 $1152 + shipping
200 rail clamps $180----------------------Covert 4 loco’s to battery $400
Power Pack $200

Total track power $2955 battery power $1552

Rodney