Large Scale Central

Will Largescale Trains survive the Times

General Discussion
#1

After getting a Email yesterday from a newbie Ive been trying to get into the Hobby I thought i’d throw this out here and get your thoughts.
I met this guy and his wife at a train show we were doing about a month ago and gave him some advice and direction as to were to go and
buy his trains and track and what to look for. After he called a couple of dealers I had recommended he sent me a Email Yesterday telling me
he had decided because of cost that he would not be doing Large scale but had decided to go with O.

So what im getting at here is do you think with all the economic issues and the heavy increases in large scale as of late that Largescale may be
getting way over priced for the average Joe? With a well known Train manufacture announcing there massive increase in prices and the QC still
very poor from a few Manufactures do you think in 5 years that there will even be a largescale?

With the old timers leaving the Hobby and not a lot of new blood to replace them im not sure how long this scale can hold out if people arent buying.
As of late ive been giving it a lot of thought as well. With track after the increase hovering around $15.00 a ft plus shipping for Brass, do you think
it’s worth it? I myself have decided for “myself” to shelf the trains because it is no longer worth it to to pay as much as we are and will for them in the near future for Trains that some are of very poor at best Quality in my experiences.

Ive been cleared to get back into the race car so I have decided that my Hobby money will be better spent there for the time being. I Hope
should I decide to get back into it into this fully in the future that there will be something to come back to in 5 or 10 years.

I will still be around and honoring all my Train show commitments and will check in time to time to see whats shakin, who knows maybe I will
change my mind, but had enough for now. Just time for a break.

Nick

#2

I feel that price alone is not the deciding factor for a newcomer. Escalating prices for ‘h.o.’, On30 and ‘O’ scale make largescale prices a bargain. Where else could someone pickup a $200 diesel or steam loco with all the trimmings?

The O-27 crowd may think their basic hobby line is cheap, but later ‘O’ gauge stuff is more expensive than most largescale items. Of cause, one can quote the items outside the box like expensive Marklin/LGB products, but in general, ‘street prices’ take care of our hobby.

I feel that those who consider our hobby expensive are reaching for the stars. They are not looking at the base starting line, but looking at the more desirable expensive items. How many who had vast ‘h.o.’ empires started out with a basic Tyco set?

If one is considering leaving the hobby then he has become bored with it. He needs a vacation or a new direction in his modelling. In my case, I indulge myself in continuous months of kitbashing followed by months where I do not even touch a train. This is a system that works for me. I am not giving up on the hobby, simply taking a breather.

#3

Do I think it’s over-priced for the “average Joe”…Yep, always has been.

The “average Joe” can do it on the cheap, or make sacrifices to do it “right” but this is not now, nor never was a poor mans hobby.

We get the same questions at my R/C flying clubs all the time. We try to raise dues from $70.00 a year to $100.00 and all holy heck breaks out…Like renting 10 acres and maintaining a flying field is cheap.

You can do most hobbies on a budget but not all. I am not “proud” of my expensive hobbies but I do tire of all the complaints about the cost. It’s expensive, if you can’t afford it, don’t do it. I make sacrifices in other areas because it’s important to me. There is a reason I am not a member of the local Ferrari club but ya don’t hear me moaning about how expensive those Italian cars are either.

Edit: I did some quick “mental math”…If I sold everything I have in Large Scale and R/C i still can’t buy a Ferrari. Guess I’m in the wrong field. :smiley:

#4

Nick,
I’m shocked :open_mouth:
The show “business” is hard work. Maybe this is causing your burnout.

I take long, extended breaks from the modeling aspect of the hobby. I really haven’t done much other than a little running and maintenance the past year.
But when I’m on these breaks, I tend to get out more and take pictures of the real thing :wink:

As for the cost, I think Large Scale is one of the better values. Price some of the “O” or “HO” stuff. Much of it equals or exceeds the LS prices.
I think “newbies” should start by looking for used track. It’s out there at reasonable prices. And they’ll likely find a lot of used motive power & rolling stock too.
Ralph

#5
Mark V said:
....but this is not now, nor never was a poor mans hobby.....
Sorry, I take exception to that mentality.

-Buy used.

-Wait for things to come up for sale at YOUR price.

-Network the boards and train shows for stuff other folks are disposing of.

-Don’t turn your nose up at small switchers, starter sets, or ‘furrin’ items.

-Don’t turn your nose up at r-1 or r-2 curves. No you can’t run a Big Boy, but if you can’t afford one anyway, does that really matter?

-Be willing to tear into things and fix them.

-Learn to make what you can’t afford to buy.

Bottom line? Practice patience and make a budget that you can live with AND STICK TO IT! — that’s the key.

#6

It ain’t a poor man’s hobby but I sure enjoy it so this poor man will kept on railroading in the garden.

#7

I understand “Taking a break”, I did that once from R/C…And went straight to trains!

Racing sounds like fun too.

#8

I travel in a circle like my trains , intrest in trains , then firearms interest resurfaces , then its the rc planes again , they all three hold my attention , just swapping whats on top at the time .
What amazes me is the EXPLOSION of new products and planes and helis when compared to LS trains , if you follow both hobbies , its like LS trains offerings are in a world of hurt .
I know I am the only one , but when the old LGB went under , the wind went out of my train sails , I knew that what ever I bought would work [ and they still do ]
but the quality control of “some” of the mfrs products is lacking greatly , just reading all of the postings of the different forums reflects that .
I worry that after all the things involved in LS trains continue , that the LS trains product field will shrink and so the LS hobby also .
A young family will have to spend a LOT of money to start out with ls trains , in these times , and I pray the train will operate correctly . Or the RC cars and trucks and helis and planes , boats will greatly over showdow the LS train hobby .

Its just me , but I do not want to FIX something brand new for it to operate correctly .

Run em or fly em if you got em , and have fun .

#9

The Hobby is what you make it, Like anything else. Is a great way to spend time with family! My dad was into N Scale and I wanted bigger! I started him on just an lgb set for around the tree now it is outside and me and my dad have a bond that is great! We share a come thread.
http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/rockandoakrr69/_forumfiles/dad train.jpg

Now he has a huge ouside layout and I am working on making mine=)
http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/rockandoakrr69/_forumfiles/arkansas 2010 023.JPG

I think the hard part is what do the companies make everyone has different taste.

#10

sorry saved pictures with no spaces

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/rockandoakrr69/_forumfiles/dadstrainoutside.JPG)

Starter train and then the aristocraft g25

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/rockandoakrr69/_forumfiles/christmasdad.jpg)

#11

No comments on the wallpaper good god what were my parents thinking=)

#12

Hi Nick:

I have to conclude that largescale has peaked and is on the decline.

Buying used only works if there are sufficient buyers to buy the product new initially from the manufactures and the clearance fire sales from the manufactures I believe are now over.

The cost of track is of minimal importance for myself as I intend to build only a small indoor layout to watch my toys go round and round. My main interest is the history of railroads for which I then like to obtain a sample model of that history.

For new outdoor layouts? Forget it. The cost of track has ended outdoor largescale for new entrants to the hobby.

Ten years ago, when I started buying largescale, pricing was very reasonable and was a good deal in relation to the smaller scales.

If I was starting at ground zero today, I would concentrate on die cast O Scale two rail AC with all of the electronics included for prototypical sound and laboured chuff smoke.

The writing is on the wall. For 2012 Bachmann largescale has no new roadnames for their low cost J&S cars. The only new 2012 product is the low price point Anniversary loco with all metal gears, an excellent dollar value. The Bachmann Climax loco street retail is around 750.00, more than double of its initial release. No way that I would pay that for a non die cast loco. If I wanted a Climax loco, then the Bachmann ON30 Climax loco would be my only option.

HLW has ceased production of both their short and long coaches as hobbyists refuse to pay the required cost of production.

The 1:20.3 J&S coaches are around 250.00 each. Nice cars, but no thanks!

I am glad that I was interested in largescale when the pricing was reasonable.

As largescale pricing continues to escalate, I think I may look more at the O scale two rail AC products.

I absolutely will not be buying future locos at the newest and future increased pricing levels. The money value simply is not there.

I see a strong growth of ON30 as largescale pricing continues to escalate. ON30 models are still large enough for the reduced strained eyesight of the aging baby boomers.

The cost of plastic large scale locos is now approaching or has equaled that of the former pricing of the Accucraft brass locos in the span of roughly ten years while the average non union wage has not increased much at all.

As another example: Out in Canadian cottage country, there is a flood of cottage owners trying to sell off their recreational boats and in particular the sea-doos. The cost of Canadian taxed fuel, presently at 1.25 per litre and forcasted to reach 1.50 per litre this summer, is ending that hobby.

Model trains will always exist. The scale of choice will simply change.

Largescale for the masses did not exist prior to LGB, other than the prewar Lionel standard gauge .

My guess is folks will simply return to the former largescale for the masses prior to the existence of LGB, O Scale, just as Lionel standard gauge was abandoned and O gauge was adopted as newer homes were reduced in square footage.

Nothing wrong with that. Just a continual evolution of the model train hobby as has always been driven by market forces.

So Nick in summary I believe largescale, gauge one, will be replaced by O scale, gauge zero, and ON30, guage HO, products.

That said, there is of course plenty of existing product in the market place which can be sold over and over again to subsequent owners. I just don’t see new product entering the market place to generate the excitement we have previously withnessed and enjoyed.

Norman

#13

I suppose costs are relative. When I built my railroad (Aristo stainless steel), I was paying $105.00 Aussie dollars for wide radius switches and around $300.00 for #6’s. Well, I wisened up and purchased from the States my wideradius for $42.00 each plus economy surface posting from Ridge Road (around $50.00 all up). Now many years later one of our sponsors advertises the same stainless steel switches for $67.00. Cost per unit landed in Australia is around $90.00 including airmail postage. If purchased locally the price is basically what I was paying many years ago.

Have costs really risen in relative terms or are we stuck in the mentality when we purchased many years ago. These days I could reproduce my railroad for basically what I paid all those years ago. Aristo items locally are around 20% lower than when I got serious with largescale. LGB/Marklin prices are about the same. A Uintah mallett sold for around $1000 many years ago. today they sell locally at $1070.00 full retail or around $970 if one shops around. We all reminisce about how prices have risen but have they really?

#14
Norman Bourgault said:
Hi Nick:

I have to conclude that largescale has peaked and is on the decline.

Buying used only works if there are sufficient buyers to buy the product new initially from the manufactures and the clearance fire sales from the manufactures I believe are now over.

HLW has ceased production of both their short and long coaches as hobbyists refuse to pay the required cost of production.


Buying used works great, especially if the hobby is in decline, as you say. If people are getting out of the hobby, I doubt they’re just going to throw it all away :wink:
I just bought a Lionel Standard Gauge caboose, from the 1920’s. It hasn’t been produced in a long, long time.

As for Hartland locomotive Works, it may well be that the coaches don’t sell fast enough to justify the investment of another production run.
They seem to be focusing on their line of minis. A niche market well suited to a small company.
Ralph

#15

Scratch build! Not only does it give you more ‘bang’ for your buck, but your involved with the hobby. I can either spend $100 on a new car pull it out of the box, and 5 minutes later be done, or I can spend $100 on scratch building supplies, kits, etc and have hours and hours of entertainment. I’d rather spend time building something instead of pulling it out of the box and being done with it. That said, I believe that most building type hobbies (trains, planes, boats, etc) are in decline because of the culture that my generation grew up with. My generation wants instant entertainment…

If someone really wants to get into the hobby they will find a way to make it work. Instead of spending the daily coffee money, it goes towards train funds… There will always be ‘armchair’ modelers that say they want to get into the hobby and never do.

Craig

#16

3d printers! Oh brothers and sisters, we are so close to the era when we share and create our rolling stock files and just print our stock, add chassis and wheels, paint, and add trim!

Heck, some can do it today… http://cprailmmsub.blogspot.com/2011/12/3d-printing-future-of-model-railroading.html

#17

When large scale first got started here in the '80s, it was really, really expensive yet there was still a market for it. Eventually things got cheaper, more products became available, and the market got bigger. Now things are getting expensive again, manufacturers cutting back, and the market getting smaller. These things go in cycles. I don’t think the hobby will die out completely, though it will likely go through some pretty hard times if the economy doesn’t get a lot better in a hurry.

#18
Michael Moradzadeh said:
3d printers! Oh brothers and sisters, we are so close to the era when we share and create our rolling stock files and just print our stock, add chassis and wheels, paint, and add trim!

Heck, some can do it today… http://cprailmmsub.blogspot.com/2011/12/3d-printing-future-of-model-railroading.html


I have everything to build a 3D printer right now but I still haven’t used the CNC mill I built 4 or 5 years ago, cause I need to learn a lot more about CAD and CAM programs and how to transform a drawing to the software that runs the mill and make the part

You can by a decent 3D printer for under $5,000 now with CAD and CAM programs included,

#19

The number of members here at LSC has doubled in just a few years.
This is not the only LS web-site with an increasing membership.
Hardly a sign of a hobby in decline.
Ralph

#20

Our choice may be somewhat curtailed in the future but the hobby will only decline if some of the major manufacturers actually went out of business.
Until then there is enough product readily available for most of the newcomers to find something that interests them.