Large Scale Central

Wildfires!

Couple big fires burning in San Diego county right now. One near Ramona, which rained ash on us at the park in Poway this afternoon. Last I heard it had burned about 8000 acres. Some of the folks in our club may have had trouble getting back home, with the road closures. We have a friend in Ramona who may have to evacuate tonight. She just recently got her house put back together after a freeze in January burst the pipes in her house and flooded it.

Another fire near the border, in the Potrero/Tecate area, is at about 14,000 acres. Several injuries and one death reported there already.

The Santa Ana winds are supposed to increase overnight and won’t let up until at least Tuesday.

Almost exactly four years ago there was another pair of fires in similar conditions that eventually merged and burned close to a million acres and thousands of homes. We’re hoping this won’t be a repeat.

Sorry to hear that. I remember the last one as my brother had to evacuate his home in Santee and his sister-in-law lost their house out in Alpine.

Not that it’s any consolation but the Natural History Museum in Balboa Park has a good display about the last fire; it’s history and origins. Pretty fascinating.

Theres something like seven different fires burning thru so cal right now, the Malibu fire burned several structures, a big fire in the Santa Clarita canyon has destoryed a number of homes, another big one down in Irvine that I think has only burned brush and the fire down in San Diego County Ray mentioned, the city of Ramona there is in harms way, some forum members on MLS have been ordered evacuated.

Its these Santa Ana winds, get a fire going in them and you can have every piece of fire fighting equipment in the world and still not be able to stop it. The wind can carry burning embers for thousands of feet frustrating fire lines.

The sky in LA is a thick haze with smoke from the fires.

The smoke here (University City, between La Jolla and Miramar MCAS) has been thick ever since yesterday afternoon, with a nearly continuous dusting of ash. There are now something like a dozen fires in San Diego county, and a couple of them have merged. All of Ramona has been ordered to evacuate, along with many other areas. Houses burning this morning in Rancho Bernardo. Interstate 15 is closed in both directions through the northern half of the county.

There saying this could be worse than the Cedar fire 4 years ago, the thing that gets me, after the disasterous Cedar fire that pointed out how inadequately the SD Country Fire Dept was short of trucks, manpower, and only had one firefighting helicopter that was on loan from LA county (they could use it if it wasnt needed up here, which of course is was, so no helicoptor) there has been more than one attempts to pass a modest tax increase to purchase new and better fire fighting equipment, and each time no matter how much pleading that the equipment was vital, it gets voted down, maybe thats changed recently but SD has always had a reputation for voting down any new taxes regardless of how rational or logical they are. So like the Cedar fire, there may be very little the firefighters can be expected to do this time around, yet again.

(edit) Just heard on the radio a FD spokensperson saying "Alot of people are going to lose there homes today, Jeezzuzzz thats really bad news if they are admitting theres little they can do to control it, let alone stop it.

They have issued a manditory evacuation of Poway

Vic,

I used to live in San Diego County. The argument against special levies for police and fire was that the reason we have county taxes in the first place is to fund the basics like police and fire departments, so the elected officials need to get of their collective a$$e$ and fund the basics first, then if there is not enough money left to fund the politicians favorite “keep me in office” projects, hold a special levy for those special projects.

Holding special levies for police and fire departments is lunacy. I hope the voters in SD County hold the politicians feet to the fire (literally) for not doing their jobs.

Like up here with Medic One.
Supposed to be funded by the gummint, but it’s not.

So, now, not-my-governor wants a permanent tax increase to pay for stuff the last dozen tax increases were supposed to cover, but the money got diverted to the “general fund” for social service purposes.

Steve Featherkile said:
I hope the voters in SD County hold the politicians feet to the fire (literally) for not doing their jobs.
Perhaps, but only if the politicians' homes are lost. And even then, politicians in general have very short memories. They'll be among the 10% who have no trouble getting the insurance to pay up and rebuild, and all will be forgotten.

Thoughts and prayers to all in the line of fire.

Later,

K

I am a native Californian, born and raised in San Diego county. I also was formerly the general manager for a (Northern) California Community Services District. We operate a fairly large fire department supported by property taxes, community contributions, and partly paid / partly volunteer personnel. I can assure all that this isn’t really a tax, equipment or manpower issue. No matter how much is spent, how much equipment, or how many firefighters, there is really no force that will extinguish or even control a 50+ foot wall of flame that is being driven by 30 to 80mph east winds through dry chaparral. That, like California’s earthquakes is just a fact of life. Our current fire chief has made that abundantly clear, even though all of us in district management work very hard to assure adequate funding.

So long as folks increasingly build in areas that are difficult to get to, let alone protect, there will be higher levels of property damage from fire, flood and other natural causes. Each of us should do what we can to prevent fires and to help lessen the danger to our individual homes and businesses, but wind driven firestorms in the California brush and forest lands are both (mostly) unavoidable and usually unstoppable. Of course, the unavoidable part does not include the work of the arsonists, but even they frequently get away without being caught. Unfortunately, there is no way to lock someone up before the crime is committed!

A crew of our district volunteer fire fighters with our best structure protection engine are currently traveling to S. California in support of the fire suppression efforts there. Fortunately, our district has had ~3 inches of (early season) rain in the last two weeks, so our current fire threat level is considered moderate. Our contingent left the district at ~7:00am PT and it’s about 600 miles, so they should arrive ~6:00pm PT. They expect to go to work immediately on arrival. I wish all the affected persons good fortune and safety, especially the brave firefighters!

Happy RRing,

Jerry Bowers

Jerry you are correct about wind blown fires like this, they learned back in the '93 Malibu fire that against a high winds pushed fire thru undergrowth like these current fires, you can have every piece of fire fighting equipement and every fire fighter in the world, and still not stop it.

Et al, my comments about the taxs in San Diego were based on radio interview discussions (NPR) with fire experts about the after effects of the Cedar fire and the current situation. To me, if the current taxs do not stretch far enough to cover improving the basics like fire and police service you have to either cut sevices somewhere or raise taxes, and if they cannot convince the taxpayers of the benifit of a special tax they are going to have to live with the results, either cut services elsewhere or do without. SD taxpayers have been “very stingy with their nickels” as one commentator pointed out, fire trucks are not cheap, a single new firetruck is about $500K to $1M, so do the tax payers expect the county to cut other services like road paving or water service maintanence to pay for them? Who’s willing then will make those decisions about where and who gets the cuts? “You get what your willing to pay for” as one commentator one the radio said, he added “we’re seeing some of that again here”

I remember the discussions during the elections afterwords and how in shock people were that after all the destruction, voters still voted down making improvements.

I live in LA county where in the past, voters in the past had approved tax increases specificaly to pay for improved fire equipment. The result, during the Cedar fire event, was that SD county burned uncontrollably, and while the fires that were burning in LA county at the same time were bad, we had an enormous amount of fire fighting resources to throw at them compared to SD county, and that did limit the amout of damage that was done.

Now going back to the current fire situation, these same commentators went on to say that THESE fire events are very different, the Cedar catastrophy was a result of poor communication, lack of equipement and coordination, allowing a bad situation to get out of control, the CURRENT situation, they knew the extreme winds were coming, had air tankers ready, fire crews ready, and much improved communications all expecting a blaze.

What NO ONE expected, was unprecidented 90+mph winds blowing so hard the aircraft were grounded, and the fires exploding across the landscape as if it was coated in Napalm! This fire exploded across the terrain according to one fire dept witness, with flames over 120 feet long and throwing embers like a flamethrower 100s feet ahead of the fire itself, all this happened so fast the fire crews were completely overwhelmed and could only save themselves. All they can do now is try to get ahead of the fire and do there best to try and fight it.

Personally as an architect I dont think anyone should be allowed to build in these high danger areas unless they build out of concrete and steel, no flammable materials at all, including using metal roofing. Tiles are bunk! unless they are very carefully installed with no or very small joints or mortered like in the old days, embers can get blown in under them and at eaves and valleys and can set the building tarpaper undernieth alight. Same with windows, fire shutters should be manditory as should sprinklers. Current homes are all stucco clad but the heat from the fire breaks the glass and sets the insides alight. So use either fire rated glass, (very very expensive) or install fire shutters that will close off windows and protect the openings. Cost too much? Well how about build a 4000 square ft McMansion instead of a 6000 sq ft McMonster…or just keep averything status quo and risk a burned house, sorry but anything built of wood will eventually burn, stucco doesnt prevent windows shattering, and poorly installed tile roofs are no protection from blowing embers. If the heat does set of a fire inside, sprinklers would help control it from spreading

The mother of one of our friends lost her home near Santa Ysabel in the fire last night. No word yet on the home of our Ramona friend. Looking at a map of the affected areas, it looks like the fire may have passed it – but it’s too close to be sure.

Where we live, there’s only been a thin haze of smoke most of the day. Not much wind either. It’s weird that there can be such strong winds a few miles away when it’s nearly calm here.

Ray thats terrible news, please let her know how sad we feel for them, and hope your friends are safely out of harms way.

I’ve often wondered about an external sprinkler system much like Navy ships use to wash down during and after a nuclear or chemical attack. Sprinklers mounted topsides that will flood the exterior of the house with water to keep the embers at bay. It could be powered by a generator and triggered by a thermostat and suck water out of the swimming pool…

That would cost much less than replacing the home. It might even work.

I’m going to get flamed on this but…

When the Red River, the Minnesota and Mississippi flooded some years ago and wreaked all kinds of destruction the government prevented many folks from rebuilding in areas of flood plain and high risk. Insurance companies followed the lead and refused to grant insurance for many others for homes rebuilt in other high risk areas.

Fast forward to Katrina and New Orleans and California fires. What restrictions are being placed in NO on rebuilding in what is probably a higher risk flood area than the river bottoms! What restrictions are placed in California for rebuilding in areas that see regular fires, earthquakes and mudslides?

Between politics and money the rules are rarely equally or even logically applied.

Andre’

A lot of the difference between New Orleans and San Diego is that one is poor black folks and the other rich white folks. It’s that way most places. The poor (white or black) are sent packing and the rich get their homes rebuilt with everyone else’s insurance money. That’s a political fact of life.

Andre the building codes here are some of the strictest in the entire country, only a few places like Japan have tougher earthquake codes for example. buildings in fire zones have to be stucco clad, or of a fire resistant material like masonry, period. No wood shakes, wood siding or similar treatment is allowed unless it meets some very stringent fire resistive ratings. Wood roofs are forbidden, tile, metal or approved composite roof are standard now no shake shingle anymore, they are completely forbidden. Houses are required to maintain a 50 foot clear area of vegitation in dry zones or green belts designed to act as buffers between the native vegitation and the buildings. Earthquake codes call for hold downs from the roof to the foundation, shear walls to resist shaking, automatic gas shut off valves, and alot more.

The trouble is that the shear radient heat from a wall of fire like this will cause anything flamible, even curtains on the other sides of window, to spontaniusly combust if the flames get close enough.Even wood on the inside of exterior walls will ignite if the exterior is exposed long enough. As I said above, protected steel frames, either post and beam or stud wall construction eliminate most of that combustion threat, concrete can absorb tremendous heat before it fails, fire shutters that close off windows from heat exposure keeping interior belongings from spontantious combustion, and sprinklers on the inside to control spot fires are all ways to prevent home loss, the trouble is that it often takes events like this for the codes to catch up with the latest technology and the newest codes dont apply to older homes unless they are substantialy remodeled and trigger new code restrictions.

And there are several places where permits are denied for unsafe conditions

Steve, someone came up with an idea like that, trouble was that for a standard house it required a tremendous amount of water to work for even a short period of time, not many people have room for a large storage tank, rural maybe but definetly not suburban. Plus the FD would need all the water pressure they can get from hydrants, any system that big if it were tapped off it could cause a drop in pressure hindering the FD efforts, and in winds like these, any water from sprinklers would likely just be blown asunder beofre it could flow down the roof.

It looks like several of Cris’ relatives may have to evacuate soon, including her parents. Some have already had to evacuate. And just now on the news they reported a mandatory evac for an area east of Chula Vista where some of my dearest and oldest friends live.

BTW, I was mistaken about the size of the 2003 fire. That burned 280,000 acres, not a million. Still huge though. The current fires have already burned nearly half that much.

Per news, winds have dropped a bit, should be substantially gone -hopefully- by this evening. This should really help fire dept to get handle on all these fires

Steve Featherkile said:
...It could be powered by a generator and triggered by a thermostat and suck water out of the swimming pool..
I guess we live at different ends of the realty rainbow - I don't know anybody who has a swimming pool.

Guess I just fergot that where you live you ALL have swimming pools.

tac

Tac, no swimmin’ pool in my backyard, the dogs water bowl is big but not big enough to qualify.