Todd Haskins said:
… are alot like our political leaders. They might look good on the shelf but put them to work and they don’t deliver. LOL
SNAP!
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Norman,
the simple fact is that products these days are disposable. We have been conditioned that failure is normal for a product. In days of old, automobiles, refrigerators, washing machines, televisions, all had a very long operating life. These days we accept failure as it enables the purchase of a new release item. Toys are simply throwaway, expendable items.
In the last ten years I have purchased five laptop computers and two desktop computers. These were all top quality well known brandname models, not cheap computer store creations. All bar one laptop are now history, failed as too expensive to repair and replacement was a ‘better’ option. Even in their lifetimes the computers required return to manufacturer’s agent for inservice repairs several times before ultimate failure.
We live in an expendable society where new for old is the spending philosophy. Why would a manufacturer put himself out of business by making a reliable product with a long service life? It simply does not make good business sense. Built in limited life expectancy ensures future sales and profits.
The failures did not effect Bachmann and USA Trains reputation. People are conditioned to accept the failure as normal.
Plug and play and throw away.
It’s a shame really. I would rather spend more on quality, then to keep replacing. But the bean counters do rule, and that’s what they want.
But every once in a while it pays off. The old WiFi router packed it in (10days back), got a new one that was less than 50% of the former’s price AND it has all the features I needed to get the WiFi extender set up. The extender will be used to run trains.
Why quality problems?
Bob said it earlier: The company we see as a brand name is not the company that made the product.
Quality control leaves thinking once the prototype is made, a production cost is determined and agreed to, and the marketing begins (“RESERVE ONE NOW”) to ensure an reasonable production order. Production starts – and ??? Yes, the big question is was there product pulled off-line for testing?
Likely not.
This is not Canon or Nikon camera production testing policy in action.
This is not TESLA in action.
Remember on quality. If you want to be a car dealer and there is only Ford manufacturing cars, you either buy Ford no matter what the quality or sell oranges. Also you can specify 15" tires but how deep can you go checking Ford about the quality of the rubber used. Kader- metal gears Which of the 40 types of brass are they using? Or are they using pot metal vs steel? they are both gray. Does Aristro/Bachmann/USA have the means to test every part? Make in USA? who is going to up front the cost of a whole manufacturing plant??? Imagine the cost of building a plant to compete with Ford for a new car line?? When It comes to manufacturing a new engine the top line is what is the buyer willing to pay? from there compromizes in engineering are made. HJ and Nick are the only ones apparatently willing to spend 10k on an engine that was built to milirtary specs. We complain about the cost of a Ford, but by the same token we expect Lamborgini quality
The presumption is we want our hobby manufactures to be ethical.
If the product was designed accurately and the materials were chosen correctly, THEN random samples are the test of the manufacturing.
The tested samples are evidence of accurate design, material choices, and construction.
Build-it-and-sell-it-anyway has appeared to be the ethic for companies writers noted in this thread.
Me? I don’t care it the product is made out of inexpensive balsa. Test it. Don’t take refuge in a vertical niche market that the hobbiests will buy whatever is offered to them. The retail price of a product does NOT guarantee it has quality. Consumer Reports annual car issue attests to owners confirming that fable.
If it is defective don’t sell it – fix the problem first.
Response (excuse):
"We can’t because we don’t actually make what we sell."
Insufficient QC , and likely growing worse with (reportedly) same/only one factory complex, so very likely the workers will be bounced around dependent on manufacturing demand … imho
thomas prevost said:
…
HJ and Nick are the only ones apparatently willing to spend 10k on an engine that was built to milirtary specs. We complain about the cost of a Ford, but by the same token we expect Lamborgini quality.
I can’t speak for Nick, but for my part I don’t expect model railroad items built to military specs. What I expect is a well designed/built product and for that value I will spend a corresponding amount.
As I mentioned before, almost forty years ago I decided to buy what I needed to simulate the traffic of the proto that I model — that was quite a bit more when I was in HOm than what it takes for the same purpose in IIm.
But back to the gist of this thread, the very first reply in this thread reads
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
…
Very short answer: insufficient Quality Control and insufficient testing prior to product release.
Yep, all the rest follows from there, including stupid design since that will show up in proper testing. Since many of the LS community are happy to be Beta tester and the really rabid fans of X,Y or Z manufacturer will shoot the messengers when the mistakes , flaws and shoddy workmanship come to light, it isn’t surprising that the mfgs see no reason to change their MO.
Ten years ago on a soon to be defunct ex-manufacturer’s forum, I coined the term “emperors new clothes” syndrome when referring to any new release product from that company. No matter what was released, it was seemingly without flaw and contrary to evidence over the years, those rabid supporters still condemn anyone with the audacity to criticise the product.
The emperor’s supporters tried many times to shout me down and hound me from the factory site. Those people are still with us today and continue their company allegiance on this site. Even after years of evidence to the contrary, they still hold the belief that their beloved company is without flaw. One such supporter even bad mouths me on an English site.
Anyone with the audacity to criticise that company’s product was eventually hounded off or banned from posting on the factory supported site. Those same people who exposed the product flaws are in the main now excluded from posting on this site after the demise of the factory forum site. They are now termed the ‘troublemakers’ and are belittled at every opportunity.
When a manufacturer has such devoted followers then why would he improve a product as obviously any flaw detected was a figment of the troublemakers imagination. Just ask the emperor and no one ever had issues with wheels moving on axles or wheels falling off or smoke units that rarely behaved as designed, or out of gauge wheels that prevented a locomotive running on the manufacturers own track, or electrical circuits designed to short circuit internally or numerous other faults. Anyone who experienced these apparently non-existent problems was deemed a troublemaker and regularly criticised until they stopped posting on forums.
These supposed troublemakers represented the experience level on this site and thus its foundations and yet they were hounded off the site to appease the newcomers and those long term supporters of that manufacturer, who were dispatched by the emperor to keep tabs on any who would criticise the emperor’s products.
Tim Brien said:
Those same people who exposed the product flaws are in the main now excluded from posting on this site after the demise of the factory forum site. They are now termed the ‘troublemakers’ and are belittled at every opportunity.
Who, exactly, has been excluded from posting on this site because of bad reviews of products?
I bet I will eventually get blamed for this too!
Edit to take out nasty derogatory text that I should have posted on Facebook. Wait I don’t do Facebook?
Now what do I do?
Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall,
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall;
All the emperors horses and all the emperors women
Couldn't put Humpty together again.
Bob,
excluded does not infer banned. Postings over the last few months of last year, when the usual ‘troublemakers’ were still active were peppered with rather nasty and inane responses from the ‘in crowd’. One of the in crowd was banned for two weeks for a rather distasteful response.
Bullying (true bullying, not the imaginary type that some believe and signature to), was common with the obvious intent to shutdown discussion on particular topics.
Many are no doubt quite pleased with themselves that the bulk of the troublemakers no longer post here. It certainly makes their task a lot easier, but whether shutting down ‘dissent’ is good for the hobby will only become quite apparent in the future.
When manufacturers are not taken to task then quality suffers. My early years of largescale were relatively free of reliability issues as I only used quality items made by the real LGB, not the post meltdown variety. Since using other manufacturers product the last twelve years have commonly seen reliability issues highlighted, even to the last release 0-4-0 locomotive from that particular manufacturer. As regards reliability, little has improved or changed over the past decade or so. It is still a beta testing world in the hobby, with manufacturers not taken to task for the quality of their products.
David Russell said:
I bet I will eventually get blamed for this too!
Edit to take out nasty derogatory text that I should have posted on Facebook. Wait I don’t do Facebook?
Now what do I do?
Of course, Rooster, you’re blamed for everything!
Towards the topic, I, personally, have not had any problems with the Bachmann stuff I have purchased for G. I freely accept that others have, and I surely did when I was purchasing Bachmann in N.
However, and this is the big however, from where I sit B’mann does improve over time - witness the Annie generations, the upgraded re-release of the Indy and the the 2-4-2T, the improvements to the Shay and the Climax, the better quality of the C-19 compared to the Connie. They’re not perfect, and the way they dealt with the Shay truck problem and the Connie (and other) gear problems varied from woeful to could have been better, but basically each release is an improvement over the last. Knowing that, and the problems that they have had in the past, every time one makes a purchase decision one has to make a value for money assessment based on the history of the manufacturer.
What I’ve just said holds true for those with experience in the large scale end of the Hobby. I admit that I seem to have been lucky since I moved up from N and that others certainly are not. And it is for the novices that I feel, first because they see a lot of negativity, some or even most of which might be deserved but which they are incapable of judging. It must be a difficult decision to choose to lay out significant funds in the face of that; what of course they may not see is the fact that even though people are criticising and being, or at least appearing to be, negative they are still in the hobby and presumably have successfully dealt with the problems they are identifying otherwise they would leave.
But I’m staying, and from Bachmann (and Piko, and IP Engineering, and many others) I will continue to purchase as I have the funds and the inclination to do so. Occasionally I’ll probably be somewhat or even significantly disappointed but mostly I’ll be pretty happy with what I get for my $$
Steve
Tim Brien said:
Bob,
excluded does not infer banned. Postings over the last few months of last year, when the usual ‘troublemakers’ were still active were peppered with rather nasty and inane responses from the ‘in crowd’. One of the in crowd was banned for two weeks for a rather distasteful response.
Bullying (true bullying, not the imaginary type that some believe and signature to), was common with the obvious intent to shutdown discussion on particular topics.
Many are no doubt quite pleased with themselves that the bulk of the troublemakers no longer post here. It certainly makes their task a lot easier, but whether shutting down ‘dissent’ is good for the hobby will only become quite apparent in the future.
When manufacturers are not taken to task then quality suffers. My early years of largescale were relatively free of reliability issues as I only used quality items made by the real LGB, not the post meltdown variety. Since using other manufacturers product the last twelve years have commonly seen reliability issues highlighted, even to the last release 0-4-0 locomotive from that particular manufacturer. As regards reliability, little has improved or changed over the past decade or so. It is still a beta testing world in the hobby, with manufacturers not taken to task for the quality of their products.
Tim,
Maybe it’s just in the eye of each viewer and I got a different view from what you did. The post I believe you refer to were not product review, but bashing of company X,Y,Zs entire existence, by your termed ‘trouble makers’.
While the threads ran their normal course, the two sides (‘trouble makers’ and the ‘Emperors supporters’) got to name calling and personal attacks. Both of these are things Bob has asked us not to do. Some of us, I believe you referred to as the ‘In Crowd’ realize Bob opened this site for the discussion and sharing of train information while sitting in His living room. He asks that we respect that guide line. No matter how hard or long you argue with another, sometimes you just can’t get them to agree with you, get over it and move on. They can’t get you to agree with them either so they can move on.
Who’s right, who’s wrong doesn’t change the quality of the product being discussed, but the constant attempts at bullying the other side with derogatory statements and attempting to pound your opinion into someone else’s head is disrespectful to the site.
We are reminded often on this site that those who can read and comprehend are at a distinct advantage, so to me if you can’t respect the site owners rules, just like on any other site ‘don’t let the screen door hit you in the ass as you go’.
I appreciate a good honest unbiased product review, of the caliber Dave Goodson used to give. But the constant belittling of a company as a whole does no-one any good. And if you believe it will get changes in the product line you disappoint me. Honest reviews and multiple unbiased reports would reach the companies faster than the spouting off on this forum.
All the post you refer to do is scare the new guy in the hobby.
Just imagine the guy that comes on here and with his first post he says I just bought a new XYZ for $800.00 and it doesn’t run on my track. When I first joined the site he would get responses like ‘did you plug it into the tender, are the switches set to on, do you have power to the rails, etc’. Now the same guys’ first answer is ‘XZY is crap, I wouldn’t own one if you gave it to me with the $800.00’. Do you see even the slightest bit of difference in the responses?
As you pointed out in an earlier post:
" the simple fact is that products these days are disposable. We have been conditioned that failure is normal for a product. In days of old, automobiles, refrigerators, washing machines, televisions, all had a very long operating life. These days we accept failure as it enables the purchase of a new release item. Toys are simply throwaway, expendable items.
In the last ten years I have purchased five laptop computers and two desktop computers. These were all top quality well known brandname models, not cheap computer store creations. All bar one laptop are now history, failed as too expensive to repair and replacement was a ‘better’ option. Even in their lifetimes the computers required return to manufacturer’s agent for inservice repairs several times before ultimate failure.
We live in an expendable society where new for old is the spending philosophy. Why would a manufacturer put himself out of business by making a reliable product with a long service life? It simply does not make good business sense. Built in limited life expectancy ensures future sales and profits."
it’s not just in the model RR industry, but all over. So I guess that new water heater I just put in won’t last 25 years like older ones did. Life is a bitch at times
Bob M said:
Who, exactly, has been excluded from posting on this site because of bad reviews of products?
I agree with Tim B. in that I don’t believe anyone has been particularly banned, but they have been driven from the site by a small group of very vocal loyalists to their particular brand that wants to hear NO commentary to the faults of their favorite manufacturer.
Two individuals in particular have stopped posting because of the flack they have received over their postings. Both individuals have been around this hobby longer than most of the people who post on this forum and both have a tremendous knowledge base to share. On the flip side, both can be quite abrasive in their presentation of their perspective of the facts, of which I have never found either to off the mark. I find their assistance in many areas to be missed on this forum.
A forum is supposed to be a place of open conversation, perspective and opinion and should not be throttled by a group however large or small that wish to only hear their perspective. Part of the reason this site is my favorite of the fora is the reality that the owner of this site allows, or should I say promotes, this open discourse. So long as we keep it civil and control our emotions our host does not interfere. I would like to keep it that way.
I said my piece early on in this thread on the main subject, but had to make my beliefs known on this tangent of the thread.
Bob C.
Wendell Hanks said:
The presumption is we want our hobby manufactures to be ethical.
If the product was designed accurately and the materials were chosen correctly, THEN random samples are the test of the manufacturing.The tested samples are evidence of accurate design, material choices, and construction.
You seem to think that doing this will add nothing to the final cost of the product.
Dave,
when I was purchasing Annies for $89.00 and Connies down to $159.00, then the occasional flaw was a little easier to swallow. With the almost identical Annie (now with metal gears and revised lead truck) costing me $550.00 and a ‘Connie’ replacement (C-19) costing me $1800.00, then I rightly expect that the items should be fault free and fully tested before release. It took ten years to get a ‘Big Hauler’ to Annie status and in the next ten years little was done until the last few years when metal gears and revised lead truck were introduced.
The connie took about ten years before Bachmann addressed the split gear issue. By then NWSL and at least two aftermarket manufacturers had addressed the gear issue. The original Shay truck issue was only addressed with the release some ten years later when Bachmann released the 38-ton Shay with die-cast trucks. In the interim, an aftermarket company developed a washer/spacer kit to attempt to keep the trucks together. For ten years Bachmann’s input was offering a very limited number of these aftermarket kits to purchasers.
Manufacturers are certainly reluctant to improve a product in a timely fashion. In some cases no attempt was made to effectively correct issues highlighted shortly after a product release. This is in part due the manner in which production runs are carried out. A company like Aristo-Craft may run a particular locomotive type every two or three years, with no inventory of spare parts scheduled. Thus if a part failed then the next production run could be several years off. It was well known that in the past the Bachmann service department cannibalised returned warranty items for essential spare parts to service future returns. I believe that USA Trains was the only reliable manufacturer when it came to receiving spares to correct any faults.
Yes, in the main we do accept our models as expendable, but that does not excuse a manufacturer to design and manufacture a flawed product. As regards new inductees to the hobby being disillusioned by negative reports, then given the price of some high level ‘h.o.’ equipment, I expect that many newbies would be surprised at the relatively low street prices of some largescale items, particularly the Bachmann introductory releases like the ‘Big Hauler’ range.
The internet has given the newbie the opportunity to research a product before purchase. In pre-internet days, one’s only avenue to research a product was a highly biassed review in a manufacturer advertisement funded publication. Surely today’s censorship of a product’s faults is as detrimental as a biassed magazine review. Both the censorship and the biassed review are answering the commercial concerns of their sponsors.
I’d like to add Lionel was not perfect to start the FMs came with cracked screw holes with missing pieces, My madison passenger cars (late 40’s) after a short time the paint started to flake off. and wheels and other parts that turned to dust, drooped frames. This is all well documented so no mfg is perfect
Richard