Hi Guys:
We are all aware of the Bachmann and Aristo Craft mfg errors such as:
Bachmann: crumbling Shay trucks, K27 gear ratio, etc.
Aristo: 2-8-0 flanges binding on the rails
The question is why did all this happen?
The folks who designed these products are no dummies. Were Bachmann USA and Aristo New Jersey simply victimised by the China factories?
What is the explanation?
Norman
Norman Bourgault said:
Hi Guys:
We are all aware of the Bachmann and Aristo Craft mfg errors such as:
Bachmann: crumbling Shay trucks, K27 gear ratio, etc.
Aristo: 2-8-0 flanges binding on the rails
The question is why did all this happen?
The folks who designed these products are no dummies. Were Bachmann USA and Aristo New Jersey simply victimised by the China factories?
What is the explanation?
Norman
Very short answer: insufficient Quality Control and insufficient testing prior to product release.
same reason the USA trains gears crack
HUMANS are involved in their construction, thats ehy they fail
They test a prototype and it usually looks good, runs good, and they sign off on it. THEN the Chinese casters/builders go into “save as much money as possible, and maximize profits by dumbing down the item as much as possible without getting caught” mode. The result is, potentially failing items are shipped. Every hobby has this problem. As the Chinese economy teeters off into the same place we are headed, they cheat at every point in the manufacturing process. The easiest place to hide low/economical quality is in the raw materials; thus inferior quality that, in many cases, is hidden inside the product. Unless the US manufacturer can afford to have a QC person on-site in China, this happens depressingly often. The red (no pun intended) tape makes it almost impossible to police this kind of shoddy workmanship.
Most manufactures have Quality control with little to few issues. Aristo had a lot of things were poorly made and had QC issues. Having QC is important with the price of things today.
Just a few of the latest items to mention, 040 Wheels fall off, 2 8 0 wheels out of gauge after 100’s of hour of testing. Stainless steel motor blocks out of gauge, Mallet burning up, MIKADO/ PACIFIC/Mallet wheels coming out of quarter and wired incorrectly, E-8 Side frames warped, HO Revo doesn’t work with old Revo…RS-3 boards installed backwards… Stainless steel track blemish/rust, track ties eroding, Sockets on various loco’s wired incorrectly, GP-40 trucks with bad high draw amp over heating motors,and ohh ya gears cracked, nylon gear box parts that needed to be change to brass in order for them to work.
Nick, it sounds like you are just bashing Aristo. Yes, they had their problems, and I purchased several of their problems. Before they announced they were going away, they were good at fixing their stuff (for me anyway).
I have had issues with Bachmann’s quality, my large scale Shay has been back for repair 3 times, and I have an HO Alco 2-6-0 that I need to send back for repair.
I work in the copier industry, and I see the same things in copiers. Updates, re-designs and “improvements” to fix a design weakness. When a short run is built to test something, all the flaws in the design and shortcomings of the manufacturing process aren’t shaken out. In my work life, and in my hobby, I wish they were. Also I have seen design weaknesses, because to the designer it looks good on paper, but the real world operation of that equipment is so much different then what the designer envisioned. “Why didn’t they consider that?” Well, its hard to consider all the possible uses and environments that a product will be subject to.
That said, there are obvious errors in design that should never have happened. Human error? Shortsightedness of the designer? Cheeping out on raw materials or manufacturing steps? Or a combination of all of these? When a product is not manufactured “in house”, all sorts of shortcuts and errors can occur. And having the production over in China has caused all kinds of “issues”. Remember the crayons with lead in them? Or the wooden toys painted with lead paint. When manufacturing is subcontracted out to a factory, with little direct oversight, stuff like this happens. Its wrong. It shouldn’t happen. But, sometimes, if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself.
Watching this thread to see who misbehaves…
Let me answer this, at least in part, from the 'Designer’s Perspective".
@Norman - "The folks who designed these products are no dummies. Were Bachmann USA and Aristo New Jersey simply victimized by the China factories?" In part, you are correct. Once the order is issued to the factory in China, you are somewhat at the mercy of the Chinese manufacturer. I learned this first hand in the '90s when company I worked for at the time ordered some welded fabrications from a Chinese manufacturer, and even with our inspector watching over the production on site in China, we still spent 20 - 40 hours on each weldment repairing them after receipt.
@HJ - See above.
@Andrew - You are far closer to the truth than you realize. The face China shows the world publicly are vastly different. Due to their political/industrial structure, consistency in product, even their own, is inconsistent at best. Keep in mind as well that, as I have been told (not first hand knowledge), there is only one factory producing hobby items, Kader. When there is a monopoly as this one manufacturer has, you can bet they will control the industry. As for QC, see above.
@David - For the most part, your post is pretty accurate, however … Every designer/engineer I know and have worked with for the last 40 or so years has always strived to produce the absolute best designs we know how to do. That being said, there are times that management, marketing, the bean counters step in and we end up trying to find a ‘less expensive’ option. Sometimes we are not provided ALL the necessary input to be able to put forth an optimum design. And yes, occasionally we even stub our toe and overlook some obvious ‘feature’.
I believe we as Americans have somewhat put ourselves in the pickle we are in. Most do NOT purchase VALUE. To most Americans, the bottom line is all that matters. I have been on the planer for 6 decades and as a child my father taught me that quality costs money. Buy quality and you will not be buying it over and over. I hear on this forum and others that the prices are too high. Are they? What would they be if every locomotive you purchased had all those quality components and flawless operation you speak of? How much would you pay to get that quality you ask for?
I suppose it depends on your budget. As an example, when I first returned to the hobby 6 or 7 years ago, my first purchase was a Bachmann K27. Why, because I fell in love with that locomotive back in '74 when I first entered the model railroading hobby. I paid $735.00 for it then, and was told I paid way too much. Since then I have purchased a Phoenix sound card (originally a PB9), Rodney’s gear box to fix the gearing issues, An Airwire R/C setup, and some serious batteries from Cordless Renovations. All the add ons I purchase added up to almost as much as I paid for the engine. Had I been required to drop that much cash on the K27 when I originally purchased it, I probably never would have purchased it, too much at one time. I would love to own an Accucraft … way out of my budget. And that is a perfect example of ‘Quality costs money’.
I will quit rambling now. …
Bob C.
**Norman Bourgault said:**The question is why did all this happen?
The folks who designed these products are no dummies. Were Bachmann USA and Aristo New Jersey simply victimised by the China factories?
What is the explanation?
Norman
Don’t know Norman…maybe you should mass manufacturing your ride on Amtrak stuff.
David Maynard said:
Nick, it sounds like you are just bashing Aristo. Yes, they had their problems, and I purchased several of their problems. Before they announced they were going away, they were good at fixing their stuff (for me anyway).
I have had issues with Bachmann’s quality, my large scale Shay has been back for repair 3 times, and I have an HO Alco 2-6-0 that I need to send back for repair.
I work in the copier industry, and I see the same things in copiers. Updates, re-designs and “improvements” to fix a design weakness. When a short run is built to test something, all the flaws in the design and shortcomings of the manufacturing process aren’t shaken out. In my work life, and in my hobby, I wish they were. Also I have seen design weaknesses, because to the designer it looks good on paper, but the real world operation of that equipment is so much different then what the designer envisioned. “Why didn’t they consider that?” Well, its hard to consider all the possible uses and environments that a product will be subject to.
That said, there are obvious errors in design that should never have happened. Human error? Shortsightedness of the designer? Cheeping out on raw materials or manufacturing steps? Or a combination of all of these? When a product is not manufactured “in house”, all sorts of shortcuts and errors can occur. And having the production over in China has caused all kinds of “issues”. Remember the crayons with lead in them? Or the wooden toys painted with lead paint. When manufacturing is subcontracted out to a factory, with little direct oversight, stuff like this happens. Its wrong. It shouldn’t happen. But, sometimes, if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself.
No Dave, Just pointing out some Quality issues and how there’s a great “Need” for Quality control inspectors over there. And I believe it the company’s that need there own inspector to make sure whats ordered is whats delivered.
Bob, years ago I was on a design committee. Being as I was the person who would end up fixing the product, management felt that my input would be appreciated. Well, the designer just wanted a “yes man” and almost none of my suggestions were implemented in the first run. Subsequent runs had about half of my suggestions implemented, because of failures and “issues” with the first run. So while many designers do strive to produce the best designs, maybe they don’t all understand what the field failures really are. So what looks “best” on paper isn’t always so.
And don’t get me started on the bean counters. I know they are necessary, but they do tend to wield too much power. IMO
Nick, I was in a QC role at the company I just mentioned. Its hard to keep a thumb on QC when you are right at the source of production. But not being at that source, its darn near impossible to maintain proper quality control. So I agree with you. But, how many US companies would be willing to fly an employee over to China when their product is on the shop floor. And, how would they know when it will hit the shop floor. I am sure the shop over in China doesn’t want any pesky inspectors gumming up the works. So would they be honest about when its going to be made? C’mon, they haven’t been forthcoming (from what we are told) about when something is going to be made, even without arranging for an inspector to be there.
We didn’t teach them: New and Improved,
Wall street wanted: Cheaper than before… that’s what we get, at the old price.
Norman Bourgault said:
The folks who designed these products are no dummies. Were Bachmann USA and Aristo New Jersey simply victimised by the China factories?
What is the explanation?
Norman
Dave, I guess maybe my childhood growing up in my dads basement auto repair shop and listening to him grumble about ‘damned engineers never make thing servicable’, must have sunk in some. The biggest argument I have with my supervisors is the ‘how they gonna get to that to fix it?’. Yeah, I have run across a couple of those designers/engineers with the ‘I know everything’ attitude, and they usually wash out sooner or later. From the design standpoint my experience has been mostly management and bean counters cause most of the irritations for the design team. I guess that is why in my cynical old age I have become such a ‘Dilbert’ fan.
Second short answer: Unless you have your own factory, hire and fire your own personnel — from design to shipping — only buy quality materials and farm out only items that are not mission critical it will be an “interesting” situation.
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
Second short answer: Unless you have your own factory, hire and fire your own personnel — from design to shipping — only buy quality materials and farm out only items that are not mission critical it will be an “interesting” situation.
More like -
Unless you make your own raw materials AND
then make your own tooling AND
you personally run the machines AND
you personally test each item AND
you personally package each item AND
you personally take each order AND
you personally deliver each item
Then your quality control might live up to some of the expectations here…
I would have to say the bottom line is money. Spend less make more.
Every manufacturer seems to have their problems, some more than others. What tweaks me is the ones that won’t own up to them. If I bought a new car (automobile) that had problems they would be required to fix it. But, in the hobby world we are ‘expected’ to accept and fix the problem. Suck.
I guess, whatever. It is what it is. Unless I want to start my own company and do things ‘right’ I have to take a bite of the turd sandwich. I buy my locos used though so it makes me feel better.
By the way, this thread should degenerate into crap in 3… 2… 1…
good luck Bob.
Alot of posts have already stated the obvious, QC or lack there of, but one thing that did occur to me was given the way a certain major Chinese toy manufacturer has behaved to their clients, including telling several smaller gauge manufacturers to go smoke their contracts and get out.
I have to think that some companies, IE Aristo, really must have had very little say over the quality of the products they contracted to have made. To keep the profit margin high, they would have ordered product at what they considered the lowest possible price point. The problem would be that that price point didnt cover corrections to subsequent production line errors or defective aspects of the products design. As an outside contracted product the manufacturer would have very little incentive to correct defects to what they had been contracted and agreed upon to produce at a fixed price point.
So with each new product we got a new example of how costs were cut or steps skipped or forgoing testing or other QC issues. Its almost as if AC was doomed from the outset once it went to China for production. USA must keep things in line only thru severe overview of the samples and pre-production models prior to authorizing production runs. Bachmann being owned by Kader meant they had the best opportunity to get defects upgraded, as they did with the Big Hauler line. but even they ran into issues with defects on their own production lines. How much of that was due to design deficiencies, production errors or down right cheating by managers we’ll never know. Just my thoughts…
It is hard to understand these things. some of it is bad design and some bad quality control.
Even Accucraft made their first C-16s with a too fast gearbox ratio possibly to match the voltage speed typical of other manufacturer’s locos then later opted for a too slow ratio that made a racket if turned up to speed. Now they are somewhere in the middle.
None of that realization helped Bachman when they made the K-37 though.
The crumbling Bachmann shay trucks is from using regrind plastic to make them cheaper on a locomotive I paid $1,000 for here in Australia. I expect better value for the 50 cents they saved at the time of manufacture.
Much the same for cracked gears. The engineering limitations should be known at the design stage but materials are substituted at our risk afterwards.
Jigs and tooling are set up initially within specs but eventually run out because of bad QC.
Chinese budget manufacturing is notorious for it. Even steel sheet sold in metric thickness is actually less.
Easy to notice when you stack 10 up!
The Chinese cheat, the Germans don’t but who survives in the end?
I have an LGB locomotive here that was run for 8 hours every business day for years and has eventually run its chrome wheels down to brass. The drive is still as smooth as and I can replace the wheels for only 10s of dollars.
Andrew
Interesting argument.
Here in the UK we have a law re goods (ANY goods).
If defective /not fit for purpose, one is entitled to replace it…get it fixed or get the money back.
Not much good however when the whole lot is screwed up!!
In the smaller scales, On30 for instance, models are made in S.Korea…anyone say what their QC is like?
I have often wondered why large scale never comes out of S.Korea.
Probably down to the bottom line again.