Terry Burr said:
By the way, this thread should degenerate into crap in 3… 2… 1…
good luck Bob.
Is this forum made in China too?
Andrew
Ross Mansell said:
Interesting argument.
Here in the UK we have a law re goods (ANY goods).
If defective /not fit for purpose, one is entitled to replace it…get it fixed or get the money back.Not much good however when the whole lot is screwed up!!
In the smaller scales, On30 for instance, models are made in S.Korea…anyone say what their QC is like?
I have often wondered why large scale never comes out of S.Korea.Probably down to the bottom line again.
I once bought a long fabric tape measure and it had the end terminated 4 inches from zero.
On the other ‘metric’ side it was out too but zero was in a different place yet again.
I took it back to the hardware to replace it and every single one I checked out of a box of hundreds was incorrect. I told the guy in the store and he just gave me a dumb look as if to say ‘what’s your problem?’…
New saying: ‘As dumb as a box of Chinese tape measures’.
Some LGB was made in Korea prior to them going belly up. I think the plastic is more brittle from what I have read.
Andrew
Nothing but endless speculation with absolutely no point…
Ken Brunt said:
Nothing but endless speculation with absolutely no point…
Are you able to explain yourself?
Andrew
Yup!
Ken Brunt said:
Yup!
Well done Ken! Your in depth articulation of such matters is beyond comprehension.
Andrew
Terry Burr said:
By the way, this thread should degenerate into crap in 3… 2… 1…
good luck Bob.
And right on time…
many profound thoughts in this thread.
but all off the mark.
i think, there is just one reason for all these faults and errors:
cheap customers!
we want it all - but we want to pay only half.
if we would not buy those cheaply made “budget-items”, but would buy the better stuff instead - they wouldnt offer us this junk.
Korm Kormsen said:
many profound thoughts in this thread.
but all off the mark.i think, there is just one reason for all these faults and errors:
cheap customers!
we want it all - but we want to pay only half.
if we would not buy those cheaply made “budget-items”, but would buy the better stuff instead - they wouldnt offer us this junk.
Yep, people love to complain about the loss of American jobs and manufacturing then they go spend their money at Wallyworld.
Mark Dash said:
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
Second short answer: Unless you have your own factory, hire and fire your own personnel — from design to shipping — only buy quality materials and farm out only items that are not mission critical it will be an “interesting” situation.
More like -
Unless you make your own raw materials AND
then make your own tooling AND
you personally run the machines AND
you personally test each item AND
you personally package each item AND
you personally take each order AND
you personally deliver each item
Then your quality control might live up to some of the expectations here…
This sounds a lot like the Lionel Corp that Joshua Lionel Cowen ran. There is a reason that all, and I do mean all, of the rolling stock that I was given in the '50s, some new, and some inherited from my dad and his brothers that they were given in the 20’s and 30’s are still running flawlessly. Great design, great materials, great QC, and they were built locally, well, Jersey, but that is sorta local, isn’t it? I also have an undated American Flyer 0 Gauge locomotive, and a 1950’s era Marx diecast set, that runs flawlessly, too. Great stuff. Made in the USA.
I have a '58 MGA. I love that car, hate to work on it. I am convinced that the guy who designed it was sure that he would never have to work on it. I have a '65 Mustang. Everything is right up front, where you can get to it without getting all twisted. I also have a '98 Dodge pick up that I bought new. I do not attempt any maintenance on that thing, except I changed a flat, once.
Price - Quality - Choice. Pick any two.
I believe we would all have got better quality if there had been far less choice. We are a very small market after all, so having few choices would be normal and healthy. Expanding beyond that to have far more choice than our size merits, resulted in low cost, low quality, small runs becoming the norm.
Victor has done a very good job here and on at least one other LSC thread, of explaining just how the contracts with Chinese manufacturers work as far as QC is concerned.
Basically, the less the US supplier pays, the less control he gets.
Large Scale customers are a very small market. By and large we telegraphed to the supplier that we want low price and lots of choice. OK but see the formula above. You can’t argue with Mother Nature.
I avoid new arrivals because they have tended to be riddled with problems.
I’d rather have less choice of really well-tested reliable models than a wide variety of stuff that I’d have to take a chance on.
Seeing the potential for many problems, I have made it a practice to buy only items known to be thoroughly reliable. That excludes new arrivals right off the bat.
It certainly includes reputable second hand stuff. This can cost as much as new, but it’s worth the price. Nothing wrong with a solidly built piece of older equipment that has been well run for a few years and well maintained. Such an item can be as good as gold.
I have acquired some older and very reliable equipment from people who have thoroughly run it in, working it over several years on their own pikes.
It’s just about making sensible purchasing decisions.
Parenthetically, you can buy a 50 year old Lionel loco that still runs like new for less than $200. Built in the USA. Lionel never even tried to be the cheapest in the market. Chances are that loco will still be running in another hundred years. Anybody here gotta problem with that?
But to return to our own favourite gauge, I can say that I have had very good experience with Kalamazoo and their heirs at Hartland Locomotive Works.
Their products seem to have been very well tested. They are made in-house by American workers in the great Midwest. The people are easy to talk to as well, by the way.
They do not offer a great choice of product. I am very willing to forgo that. There are not a lot of details. That’s plenty fine by me. I can customize their models without sacrificing a lot of costly detail. The trains’ durability allows me to let children handle them.
Hartland is not as cheap as the better-known mass marketed trains, but neither is it expensive. As a consumer I have not spent time on repairs. Oh, and Made in USA - there’s a bonus!
All disclaimers apply. I am merely a satisfied customer, nothing more, honestly.
Give me simple, rugged and reliable. Don’t tempt me with many glittering choices riddled with problems. Ben Franklin knew about money. He said “Many’s the man has been ruined by a good penny’sworth.” Don’t even try to tempt me with low prices.
I’m glad to pay a bit more for the qualities I praise here.
Again, see the formula above. Cheers!
Korm is spot on!
Don’t expect quality at bargain prices.
Oscar Wilde — ‘Nowadays people know the price of everything and the value of nothing.’
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
Korm is spot on!
Don’t expect quality at bargain prices.
Oscar Wilde — ‘Nowadays people know the price of everything and the value of nothing.’
Exactly …which makes this thread and many others pointless?
David Russell said:
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
Korm is spot on!
Don’t expect quality at bargain prices.
Oscar Wilde — ‘Nowadays people know the price of everything and the value of nothing.’
Exactly …which makes this thread and many others pointless?
In plain text it’s the consumer of the product. Hmmmmm, good thing I model RhB in 1:22.5. 
by some aka “Euro Crap”.
Why do you always pick fights?
I agree, it all comes down to trying to balance what the consumer wants and can afford. I don’t agree that the consumers are “too cheap”.
Even at the “cheap” end of the scale this is a very expensive hobby. Not many people can afford to spend that much on something that is a non-necessity, and fewer still are able and willing to spend a lot more for better-built products.
Extremely rigorous on-site QC coupled with extensive, long-term testing is the only way to reduce flaws to a minimum, but this is far more expensive than the small market can possibly bear. We’re talking about toys here, not high end sports cars or wristwatches.
If its “Euro-Crap” (Made in Germany) Hans… why buy it?
Ross Mansell said:
If its “Euro-Crap” (Made in Germany) Hans… why buy it?
Ross,
It is others who refer to it as “Euro-Crap”, I’m quite happy with my BRAWA, KISS and LGB stuff 
, (including Toy Trains as kitbashing material).
And I don’t moan and groan about the prices, if I can’t afford it I don’t buy! But I look at the value and I’m not first in line to buy stuff. Typical example is the BRAWA RhB Connie, which was subject to a recall due to an unsuitable motor to gearbox setup (apparently a subcontracted item from Aristo).
My sound equipped DCC powered version was late arriving, but there have been no problems and the D-I-E-T-Z sound together with their decoder works just as wished for.
No problem with the Euro stuff I bought and keep buying. Our three criteria are:
— Has to fit our era
— Has to fit our budget
— Has to be good quality/value
And then there is scratch building and kit bashing to get the rest, slowly but surely; now back to my turnout building program.
To get back to Norman’s original question I would say that “They don’t make it like they used to” and “you get waht you pay for” .
Thinking about my trains I have some Bachmann geared locos that are beautiful models with tons of detail but when I run them I am always concerned about the drive trains so I don’t tax them much. On another shelf are engines from LGB they don’t have near as much detail but their drive trains are legendary. I don’t push their limits either though. Stuff is too much to fix. These engines cost about the same but are different in their manufacturing. What I’m saying is there are trade offs to be made.
Sadly what we are seeing across the American economy is that profits are #1 and service and satisfaction are taking a back seat. Everyone wants a deal and a bargain and ultimatly you get what you pay for. What bugs us is when we pay what we consider to be good money for a product but the manufacuterer doens’t see that and we get soemthing that is lacking.
It is all about perception and how much the consumer will take before rising up and causing a stir.
To really ruffle some feathers here I’m going to take a leap and say that some of our questionable trains are alot like our political leaders. They might look good on the shelf but put them to work and they don’t deliver. LOL