Interesting discussion, Mark.
Have a saying in the submersible Navy…“Can’t get to me mXXXXX fXXXXX, I’m qualified!”
Obviously, you are not qualified.
But, you are “easy”.
TOO easy.
Let me send you Stanley’s e-mail address.
He’ll sort you out.
Davey boy. Don’t do that, we might end with two Stanleys and two Marks,
Guess it’s just a bad day?
then maybe taking shots at running jokes and shots at personal traits are 2 differnt things,
Curmy, I must admit, I have no fing clue as to what yer trying to say, can you explain that in plain moron for me?
Ralph Berg said:Mark Dash said:
That "NEXT WEEK" shot is on every other post on any topic about LGB/OA/MArklin and does not anywhere near resemble a personal atack on anyone! Refer to page 1 of this very topic, i'm not the ony one that made a "next week" comment!For the record, I don’t care about LGB, they simply have never produced american prototypes that look good, their prices are way outta line for similar items by other manufactures products.
There was nothing wrong with your "next week " comment.
HJ responded by taking a poke at you.
Just seems to me you went a little over the top after that.
If you can’t take a shot…you know the rest.
Ralph
Ralph,
The “literacy” poke has nothing to do with how well anyone writes, but after I write “July 26th at the latest” that leaves approx 2 weeks, but it could be before then.
Anyway, while Mark gets upset I’m out in the garden digging – right beside the murmuring little stream. Building one more “potential landslide area” 
… actually I’m levelling the spot for a passing siding along the hillside which will require more stacked rock.
Mark,
your posting simply reinforced my statement. You need to learn to detach yourself from the emotional side of a supposed argument and then we have a discussion, rather than a biassed opinion.
Fred Mills said:Well, now you've met 2. I was collecting the ECLSTS cars but when they quit putting the "ECLSTS" and the date I quit collecting them.
....met a guy a few weeks ago that collects Chucky's refrigerator cars.....is only missing 8 of the whole series, but he is the first I've met that "Collects" any of the 1:29 stuff. But; collecting is a funny hobby. I've heard of some that collect "Moose Droppings", and bheer cans......so I guess anything goes, in that area.
Fred Mills said:Crimeny! There must be hundred's of 'em! That guy's invested some moolah. Ask him what he's missing. I have a few of the earliest ones. Don't mean crap to me. I can part with 'em.
....met a guy a few weeks ago that collects Chucky's refrigerator cars.....is only missing 8 of the whole series, but he is the first I've met that "Collects" any of the 1:29 stuff. But; collecting is a funny hobby. I've heard of some that collect "Moose Droppings", and bheer cans......so I guess anything goes, in that area.
I used to collect bheer cans 30 years ago. I sold the whole collection at a garage sale for quite a bit of cash. Most were steel with the old fashioned way of opening them.
Still got a full six pack of Billy Beer.
jb
jb said:YUK - I can only imagine how bad it would taste buy now.
Still got a full six pack of Billy Beer.
What really happened?
(http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/investigations/hindenburg/hindenburg06.jpg)
Best I can explain it
I think this one’s more appropriate Vic: IMG
(http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/pto/lowres/pton56l.jpg)
/image
Victor Smith said:
What really happened?(http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/investigations/hindenburg/hindenburg06.jpg)
Best I can explain it
I thought it was more like this Vic?
(http://baconexpress.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/huge-manatee.jpg)
Well Jack,
Today is the first anniversary of Märklin being awarded the EPL assets, the true " … wait until next week" day!
And as a present here is the translation of the report on ZDF (German TV2) Frontal21
HJ translates said:
Promised were easy money, advantageous interest rates and even more favourable taxes. The ads from alpine Austria were truly enticing and some German companies promptly fell for the scheme. The "finish" followed in a foreign country, because in and around Salzburg they got caught in the "Buddy" economy, where one knows each other. That's where the super reasonable bank suddenly recalled the credits, confiscated the German enterprise and the courts together with the insolvency trustee managed the rest silently and with considerable profit. The Alps became a Banana Republic.Chris Esser and Jobst Spengelmann report:
"Salzburg, a timehonoured European cultural center, of late also the playground of very busy bankers. With advantageous interest rates they bait even German enterpreneurs, like the Bavarian Peter Maegdefrau. He was until recently the owner of ROCO, a producer of model railway items.
He wanted to invest in a big way, to get ROCO to be the world leader in the industry. He needed money for new equipment and machinery. This he obtained to unbeatably advantageous conditions from Raiffeisenverband Salzburg, but then everything took a different turn.Peter Maegdefrau: “After all the paperwork was finally signed and legally binding, it happened a few weeks later that Raiffeisen, overnight and without any prior notice - for me totally unexpected - declared the credits due. To this day I have no explanation how one can take such steps, after one sat together, talked about partnership and longterm commitments, then does an abrupt 180º.”
The credit trap closed on Maegdefrau and his 800 employees. The accounts were frozen, a few days later he had to declare insolvency.
PM: “When someone turns off your credit tap, regardless if it is legal or illegal, you stand in that instance no chance. It is exactly as if someone holds you under water, you can protest that it is unjust that someone holds you in that position, as long as the other is stronger you will drown.”
This although ROCO was a flourishing business, the fact evidently didn’t escape the bank. For Peter Maegdefrau that meant the bank wanted to reap the rewards and there’s some system to that in Salzburg.
Werner Kogler, Green Party MP, Chair of finance committee
“First off, Salzburg is a special economic region in Austria where the banks like to play enterpreneur. They certainly grant credits, but with those same credits they will strangle viable companies to obtain ownership, to then operate and manage those companies themselves.”
In ROCO’s case the bank took early steps and registered a catchment company. Raiffeisen calculated that the company would, in case of a sale, make a profit of 3.8 millionen Euro. The bank disputes any accusations and referred to their lawyer.
Wolfgang Kleibel, Lawyer Raiffeisen Association Salzburg:
“I categorically won’t comment any of the figures and documents you cited, since I won’t be able to. I informed you in general terms that Raiffeisen is always striving, that includes this case, to avoid an insolvency, since insolvencies always mean a loss to the bank.”
Some loss! shortly after the takeover the catchment company of the Raiffeisen Association reported an operating profit of 2.5 million Euro, one year later that had grown to 6.5 million.
Peter Maegdefrau is the “patsy”, we accompanied him to the Nürnberg Toy Fair, where his former company exhibits.
Raiffeisen is still part owner of the company, when the old owner shows up the new owners get nervous.Personnel at the ROCO display:
“ROCO specifically asked you not to film here!”
Raiffeisen promised Maegdefrau and other German enterpreneurs in ad campaigns, originating in Austria, competency and most favourable conditions.
Oliver Putz advises German companies on investments in Austria, he warns not to believe the promotional promises.
“So far we have been unable to arrive at a satisfactory solution with the Raiffeisen Association since they have been unable to present contracts and other paperwork which we could in good conscience recommend to our customers as satisfactory and free of loopholes.”The business practices of certain banks are currently being looked into by a committee of the Austrian parliament. Amongst other items that are being scrutinized is the insolvency of ski producer ATOMIC.
The same modus operandi in that case, the bank calls the loans on a moment’s notice, takes over the ATOMIC Group and reaps a profit of approx. 40 million Euro. Along for the “joy ride”: always the same clique.Werner Kogler, Green Party MP, Chair of finance committee
“When Atomic was driven into insolvency all happened within a few hours, the lawyer of the bank Bawag started out in his car in Vienna, picked up the insolvency judge in Salzburg and during a further stop the insolvency trustee and continued then to ATOMIC to close them down. It is absolutely unbelievable!”How this unbelievable coterie of industry and justice functions the committee of parliament illuminated; the chair showed little surprise.
Martin Graf, Austrian People’s Party, Chair of the parliamentary banking committee
“In a small country, on a relatively small base of operations where over years and decades the same people continue to cross paths, there develops a certain circle of “friends” and the system becomes vulnerable to an exaggerated “friendship clique”, which leads to unhappy situations.”
That’s what a German businesswoman had to experience (she wants to remain anonymous): “I received a loan with extremely favourable terms for my company. All of it was no problem, then the bank demanded more securities and the conditions were recalculated. This all happened within a few days, all of a sudden I was not to received the full amount of the loan. This was a disaster for me!
I had to keep my company going. All of a sudden it came to a standstill. This Austrian bank drives me into insolvency, they want to liquidate my company.”The Raiffeisen Association has meantime reached a number of more than 400 co-ownerships, including German companies.
Werner Kogler, Green Party MP, Chair of finance committee
"It would fit the general picture to have different forces work together in order to keep their
own “economic island” on the go. That is always fertile ground for corruption."
Peter Maegdefrau plans to fight against that in the courts, he sued Raiffeisenbank Salzburg for 40 million in compensation."
That’s what happened at ROCO and other companies, BUT it isn’t what happened at EPL, matter of fact to connect the EPL fiasco to the ROCO insolvency - other than both producing little trains - is more than the usual stretch of the imagination, even for someone like Jack “The Ventilator” Barton!
You don’t mean to say the obsfucating kerlector was trying to divert attention once again, and this time a year down the tracks, to claim once again it was the big, bad banks that did in the poor little epl-s?
No, he wouldn’t try such a thing, now, would he?
He knows that the truth would come out, and that his little charade would be uncovered…but, he’s got the Family Feud to support him, right?
Hard to believe.
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:I love your SPIN! Sure the players are different and in Lehmann's case it was old loans that were freshly re-capitalized rather than new loans, but the game plan and goals of the banks are the same. You conveniently left out the part about the banks liking to strike right after the August vacation period. The lowest cash flow period of the year. I'm sure that would jog some memories.
That's what happened at ROCO and other companies, [b]BUT it isn't what happened at EPL[/b], matter of fact to connect the EPL fiasco to the ROCO insolvency - other than both producing little trains - is more than the usual stretch of the imagination....
Dave, go write another article for G.R. on how to make cab doors open 90º instead of 60º, earth shaking. Oops!, I forgot you don’t do that anymore.
Yeah, I don’t.
And, to tell you the truth, I am quite happy not dealing with that anymore.
Let’s see your translation, OK?
I would like to compare the two and then maybe get a third party, not involved in model or toy trains compare them to the original.
Waiting.
OK - what any reader of this thread may determine is:
1 - A German bank declared “time’s up!” with X corporation and wanted their money;
2 - That declaration may or may not have been made at the least opportune time in the year for those owing to garner the most income from retail sales;
3 - There is dispute on this site as to the relevance of the above to LGB’s demise and purchase by Marklin.
Any conclusive data, agreeable by all readers, to close out this debate as to what were or was the cause or causes of LGB’s demise AND Marklin securing ownership?
Thanks.
Wendell
Jack Barton said:Hans-Joerg Mueller said:I love your SPIN! Sure the players are different and in Lehmann's case it was old loans that were freshly re-capitalized rather than new loans, but the game plan and goals of the banks are the same. You conveniently left out the part about the banks liking to strike right after the August vacation period. The lowest cash flow period of the year. I'm sure that would jog some memories.
That's what happened at ROCO and other companies, [b]BUT it isn't what happened at EPL[/b], matter of fact to connect the EPL fiasco to the ROCO insolvency - other than both producing little trains - is more than the usual stretch of the imagination....Dave, go write another article for G.R. on how to make cab doors open 90º instead of 60º, earth shaking. Oops!, I forgot you don’t do that anymore.
Well Jack,
Are you getting some eXtra Ventilator air?
You seem to forget a few things
a) the loan agreement(s) expired at the end of August 2006, I guess they were up for re-negotiation if one was in a position to negotiate. “The Boys” obviously weren’t otherwise it would still be Ernst Paul Lehmann Patentwerk oHG and the employees would - big maybe like other years - have gotten their holiday pay this year.
b) the banks got a bit “upset” by the tactics employed by “The Boys” especially that LGBoA “sale”.
c) ability to repay the mandatory portion of the loans went down the tube when the big sales event aka “The 125th Anniversary” raised less than half of what was projected. This despite selling everything short of the kitchen sink - that one came much later when Hämmerle auctioned off whatever was of no value to those who were awarded the remaining assets.
To call it by the right name it was a “very clever play” that backfired in a very big way and “Wait until next week!” Day was a year ago.
Don’t give us the song and dance that was proven patently false many times in the last two years. It hasn’t worked and it won’t work.
BTW as to how deep “The Boys” were in hock, latest published figures out of Germany put it at just below 30 million Euro. That’s a cool 40+% more than was initially reported. The only figure that didn’t change is the 20 million Euro turnover. No wonder the banks were less than amiable regarding new terms, then you add the “crafty moves” and the “fancy footwork” of “The Boys” and the result would be as it unfolded.
Jack, have a beer or a scotch, relax! “The Boys” went down the tubes and the rest is history! BTW history unfolds every day.
Note to Dave: I’m sure Jack “The Ventilator” Barton didn’t refer to the TV report when mentioning August and low cash flow. Or I’d ask him to point out where cash flow was mentioned in the TV clip. Just his usual attempt at a diversion.
Wendell Hanks said:
OK - what any reader of this thread may determine is: 1 - A German bank declared "time's up!" with X corporation and wanted their money; 2 - That declaration may or may not have been made at the least opportune time in the year for those owing to garner the most income from retail sales; 3 - There is dispute on this site as to the relevance of the above to LGB's demise and purchase by Marklin.Any conclusive data, agreeable by all readers, to close out this debate as to what were or was the cause or causes of LGB’s demise AND Marklin securing ownership?
Thanks.
Wendell
Wendell,
The “why, how, when and by whom” has been covered sufficiently (and then some), that it doesn’t need to be rehashed once more. All by citing and translating reports in the public domain!
The Ventilators may clutch their straws 'til they hear the Big Bad Wolf blew the house down and they can sell the straw at a profit. :lol: :lol:
As to your precise question
WH said:Answer: They had to declare insolvency!
...... what were or was the cause or causes of LGB's demise ...
WH said:Answer: The assembly of creditors awarded the EPL assets to Märklin, based on the bid Märklin entered!
...AND Marklin securing ownership?
Two simple questions, two straight forward answers!
Wendell,
the ‘reasons’ for the failure of EPL have been thrashed out many times previously and countered by those who would rather wait. It is now two years since EPL was declared insolvent and one year since Marklin put up the money and purchased the company. If it had of been LGBoA that had of been successful then all this countering would have been swept under the rug. If anyone should be annoyed it is Schontag as his promised financial backing suddenly dried up. I, for one, would like to know who was initially guaranteeing that financial support and then withdrew it. Certainly shades of a mystery novel in this circumstance. At the time (early 2007) there were rumours in the German media that Schontag was a stooge, a strawman, a patsy. He may not have been ‘squeaky clean’, but he was simply purchasing a failed toy company. Thank goodness EPL were not making nuclear weapons.
The rubbery figures like to 'stretch' the imagination and make us believe that it was the big bad banks foreclosing on prior credit commitments and then, when that failed, it was Marklin who supposedly purchased the company 'illegally' and now it is Marklin who are the evil do-ers. Simple facts are that the banks started insolvency procedures when ownership of LGBoA and LGB trademark rights were handed over to the American sibling, losing one of EPL's vital assets. This was too much for the banks to take. Secondly, supporters of the LGBoA consortium did not offer enough capital to purchase the failed company. Poor losers, or maybe things did not follow the 'master plan'. Look to the available stock, still in American stores, that was shipped in 2006, prior to handing over ownership of LGBoA and the announcement of the insovency.
I would have wholeheartedly supported LGBoA purchasing control of EPL. However, the intrigue since 2006 has left me bewildered. We are simply talking about a toy train company and yet the corporate intrigue and supposed complicity amongst creditor banks would make someone believe that the stake of national pride was at risk. The boys tried to 'trade' out of their business slump and it all backfired, losing total ownership and leaving them legally liable for debts incurred.HJ,
looks like both our posts are similar. You had not replied when I commenced my response. However, it appears that we agree on vital points, but then how could one really argue with the facts. Unless, one was a rubbery ‘gummi’ person and wanted to wait awhile and see how far the truth could be stretched to be pleasingly aesthetic. Gee that sounds very much like a LGB ‘scaled’ product.