Korm Kormsen said:
...........the amtrack and your whole train system will decay - less you get so poor, that you can not afford cars anymore.
.
Precisely my point: it will dawn on people when some of what they’re used to is no longer an option. Anybody follow which cars have been the big sellers since the bottom fell out? 
Steve Featherkile said:
Well, it's time for me to throw in my 2 cents.If the airlines, the trucking industry, ocean transport and the automobile had to support its’ infrastructure the way the railroads do, rail passenger service would be competitive. Of course, if that were true, travel would be prohibitively expensive.
On the other hand, if railroads received the same kind of support from gummint that the other three do, rail passenger service would still be competitive, and affordable.
My main issue with Amtrak is price. The last two times we’ve planned long trips, we tried to get a train instead of plane. This last time, round trip airfare was $327 a person. ONE WAY for 3 people, on a train, was $1400, plus another $700 for a room. We don’t mind the travel time difference, (6 hours vs 55), but the price difference is a showstopper for us.
I can’t imagine what it would take for us to go to the ECLSTS without a vehicle.
Rent vehicle or hire someone to haul the “Timesaver” 50 plus miles to the train station.
Pay extra for shipping “Timesaver” to York.
Schedule for enough ahead to make sure it is there before show. Have to also pay for storage.
Pay for train tickets for Andy, Jane, Jan and myself. Allow 2 days to make sure train makes it to somewhere close on time. That’s extra motel rooms. Trip to Orbisonia for EBT exploration would have to be a car rental.
Probably an extra day is going to be required to repair damage to “Timesaver” from shipping.
Rent vehicle or hire someone to haul to Fairgrounds.
Need vehicle or bicycles to and from Hotel, Diner and Fairgrounds. Gee maybe we could go by taxi, probably $50 to $75 each trip for the four of us.
Let’s not talk about the ladies and their shopping trip and exploration.
Reverse procedure and all associated costs for return trip.
Yep, I can see this as a plan for the future. NOT!!!
Let’s take more of our tax dollars to make the USA more like Europe or any place else, I think not.
My wife and I thought about taking Amtrak to Vegas one time.
They don’t go there! You take a bus from L.A.
They don’t go to many US attractions at all.
Except for a few commuter branches, which are profitable, Amtrak is a great big tax payers money pit!
Americans will not give up their vehicles until you pry their cold dead fingers from the steering wheels.
Even in our own city, they are cutting bus routes, due to lack of riders.
Let’s put the Amtrak debate into a historical socio-political frame of reference using the dates Forrest provided. So what WAS going on?
1968-70: The Manson murders, race riots, Vietnam War (from the Tet Offensive to Mai Lai massacre to the invasion of Cambodia) , student protests, the Kent State shootings, Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King Jr assassinations, Woodstock, Apollo landings … The long term future viability of passenger rail was probably not a hot button issue for most of the country - or even very far up on their radar screens. So Congress punted…
1974-76: The nation’s Bicentennial, ‘stagflation’, Arab oil embargo, Watergate, 9.2% unemployment, air hijackings and the raid on Entebbe, Son of Sam, Carlos the Jackal, Helsinki Accords, Squeeky Frome, The Thrilla in Manilla, … Again, the future of rail travel not really a major priority for the public. Congress made some changes but pretty much punted again…
1978: Camp David Accords, huge teacher’s strikes, the dollar plunged against European currencies, Jim Jones, Neutron Bomb debates, beginning of Iranian revolution, 2 Popes die in just over a month… Aaaaand another half-hearted punt…
1997: Princess Diana killed, Kyoto Protocol, Heaven’s Gate suicides, Dow Jones way up - followed by a huge fall, OJ Simpson trial, the beginning of the assault on big tobacco, Bird Flu scare, Paula Jones… And it STILL wasn’t a priority, but the discussion started to turn away from actually trying to make it work to, “Who designed this screwy thing, and why do we still need it?”
2001-2003: “Summer of the Shark”, 9-11, AIDS, the invasion of Afghanistan, Enron, rolling blackouts and huge rate increases in Cali, Anthrax attacks, DC sniper, beginning of the pedophile priest scandals, Invasion of Iraq… The American people are definitely focused on other things, the momentum in Congress was now building to defund and dismantle it, when they thought of Amtrak at all…
2008: Housing and mortgage crisis and the beginning of the ‘great recession’ - need I say more?..
With all that other ‘stuff’ going on every time, it’s pretty amazing that Amtrak survived this long, isn’t it? That’s why I said it was not only an afterthought, but actually set up intended to fail from the beginning
The Summer 2011 issue of Classic Trains has a nice selection of articles on what lead up to Amtrak - including the machinations in Nixon’s Washington and the squirming and winding most of the Class1 outfits performed - and how it then evolved.
The April 2011 issue of Trains features “Fast Trains”; makes for interesting reading and points up the differences in the approach to modern transportation.
I’m always amused by references/links to rants that masquerade as “News” items, but OTOH I mentioned not long ago how I approach posts on the different fora. Works 95% of the time.
@ Mik,
The one reference missing is: the merger of the NYC with the PRR and the crap that followed that merger.
Need you say more? Only for those who have really short memories or really fried their brains during the 60s. :lol: :lol:
I think it’s a fallacy to think the US could ever be like Europe in terms of rail travel. Commuter/high-speed rail won’t change our habits to going to the grocery store or post office, nor driving cross town to visit friends/family. We’re not “wired” that way, and we’re too far along now in terms of automobiles to develop the needed infrastructure to support it. (Heck, building a commuter line from Denver to Golden met enough challenges, and that’s running largely along the highway and old railroad right-of-way! Can you imagine the dust-up over extending a spider-web of light-rail out to serve the suburbs?) Commuter/high-speed rail is also not going to change our habits for traveling across the country (distances more than a day’s drive). Flying–for all its inconveniences–is still the most efficient mode of travel there. Where it can make realistic and beneficial inroads is in the regional networks. We’ve already seen this in the NE corridor, where the trains provide a viable (often quicker) alternative for traveling from DC to Boston than flying. But here’s the thing… the NE Corridor is well-connected to the major airports in the region. You can take the train to any major city, and if the train doesn’t actually stop at the airport, it’s a short ride on another train (subway, etc.) to get to it. From there you can rent a car to get where you need to go if you need to if the local metro systems can’t get you there.
It’s those networks I think we should be concentrating on in the next few decades. Let’s look at the most-traveled airline hub routes (NY-Chicago, DC-Chicago, San Fran - San Diego, etc) and figure out ways to make travel on those major (and often crowded) routes more convenient for the traveler. You’re not going to alleviate that congestion by building more airports, there’s no place to put them. The roads are already jammed with traffic with little/no room for additional lanes. Let’s link these communities that already have halfway decent intra-city rail systems already in place to take the burden off of the air networks.
But here’s the other part of that equation… Let’s also support the communities that are beginning to build these intra-city rail systems, as they’re essential for the success of the larger high-speed rail networks. What good is getting to a train station quickly if you can go no further? Maybe they don’t pay dividends in the short term (i.e., first 20 years), but as other pieces fall into place, they become essential pieces of the puzzle.
Goodness knows the roads aren’t going to get any less congested than they already are, and the convenience of air travel has been on a steady decline for the past 30 years. It used to be that Southwest was the joke of the industry for treating passengers like cattle. Now they’re arguably the tops in terms of how they treat their customers. That’d be great if they had actually improved. Alas, it’s just that the rest of the industry has lowered the bar so low to where Southwest now sits high. If we had viable alternatives, that decline, and the TSA’s ever-increasing intrusiveness–would never have been allowed to happen. Customers would have taken the alternatives, and the airlines would have been forced to respond. With no alternatives, they’re going to treat us more and more like the baggage in the belly of the plane. (Though once–just once–I’d like them to re-route me to Hawaii by accident, then take a week to figure out the mistake.) If we collectively sit here and take the crap the airline industry puts on us, all the while killing any possible alternative that’s put in front of us, then we get what we deserve. For those who think we shouldn’t spend money on railroads or other alternative transportation, I’d like to say “Thanks a lot!” Now if you’ll excuse me, Nurse-turned-TSA-Agent Ratchet is now ready for me.
Later,
K
Kevin,
Where I come from it usually works like this: One observes how other people are handling similar problems, then looks at which part of their solution one can apply to one’s own problem(s).
This probably will require quite a few new approaches in:
observing (oh we know all about that already!),
thinking (no way, we have done this for x years),
changing (why should we, let others change. Besides, it infringes my freedom.)
etc. etc. etc.
HJ, you forgot two… “You expect ME to pay HOW MUCH for THAT?” (even if it’s less expensive in the long run) “Not in MY back yard!” (Put it in HIS) As a nation we’ve lost interest in bold endeavors and large public works. Our newest great American hero…
(http://chzhistoriclols.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/funny-pictures-history-hymie-silverstein.jpg)
Mik,
The list could be a lot longer … the three I listed are, in my opinion, the pivotal ones, all else follows from there. 
I just finished booking our trip on Amtrak starting from Portland Oregon going with the 30 day Rail Pass heading toward Chicago with a four day stop along the way. Then off to New Orleans for five days. Along the southern part of the States ending up in Los Angles. Staying there for four days then back up to Portland for our flight back to Hawaii. Total cost including a Roomette, includes among other bennies, ALL meals… Rail Pass, Roomette $2200 I can dig it and bought it today.
Happy rails to us or the other cowboy song !
Cheers TOF
Mik said:So, Mik, what happened between 1978 and 1997? :lol:
Let's put the Amtrak debate into a historical socio-political frame of reference using the dates Forrest provided. So what WAS going on?... Then a history lesson...
Steve Featherkile said:A lot more crazy crap that wasn't Amscrap related? Congress was mostly content to leave it alone (hoping it would die all by itself?)
So, Mik, what happened between 1978 and 1997? :lol:
The big thing was probably the resurgence of rail traffic due to the advent of containerized shipping… making Amtrak trains and even bigger PITA to the railroad dispatchers.
Amtrak should be privatized–(I doubt any tycoon out there would buy a dying or dead horse.)
So should NASA and the Post Office.
Mik said:Steve Featherkile said:A lot more crazy crap that wasn't Amscrap related? Congress was mostly content to leave it alone (hoping it would die all by itself?)
So, Mik, what happened between 1978 and 1997? :lol:The big thing was probably the resurgence of rail traffic due to the advent of containerized shipping… making Amtrak trains and even bigger PITA to the railroad dispatchers.
The item that saved the “freight boys” bacon (and the rest) was deregulation. If not for that, most of them would have gone the way of NYC and PRR i.e. they would have merged several of them at the brink of bankruptcy and then they would have been too big to let them fail - even way back then! Containerization/Intermodal helped but the real difference was deregulation in all its many aspects. Hmmmm … does that sound familiar?
OTOH when you compare progress of utilization prior to the slump of 2008 it is absolutely amazing how much more can be done with a whole lot less. And the “freight boys” know where to apply the money and that includes any that flows from the Feds for various projects.
Q: What is Amtrak’s ultimate purpose?
The way I see it is we are our own worst enemy.
When the American public comes to it’s senses, and lose their love for the automobile then the rail will make a come back.
But I don’t think it will be necessarily on 2 rails.
Personally I would use the trains to wander about.
Back in the 60’s when I was in Boston, I used their rail system all the time.
I thoroughly enjoyed it.
Now the dismantling of the US rail systems for passengers was at the hands of GM Standard oil and a few other company’s.
This was done to force people to buy cars, and they will need fuel them.
That’s the same reason why electric cars wont become popular.
The biggest reason for that is the short range. Back before the new century GM leased electric cars that were fast reliable and had great range.
They were too good, maybe that’s why they collected them all and crushed them all, but 1. That 1 is in a car musiam with no powertrain.
Hummm, makes you wonder don’t it.
David
Every one picks on Amtrak.
Why don’t you go to the meat of the problem.
Now don’t look at this problem to intelligently.
You will let go Grasshopper feel the force.
It is hard for rail service to operate in a country that all but quit manufacturing in this country.
The reason why NYC and PRR, Reading and the rest is because the manufactures diapered.
You can’t run a railroad with very little revenue.
The container rail service wasn’t enough to save the rails.
The switch to oil fuel from coal.
You can thank the US Government, now wait they are not alone BIG BUSINESS is in there to.
The mighty DOLLAR, which now is small and scrawny.
The older people saw it. Progress they said.
Help the 3rd world country’s, Best take care of your own first, last an always.
Help the 3rd world but always remember who your working for.
I guess I said more than enough, so I’m done.
My heart wont take any more.
David
David Kapp said:Ain't gonna happen anytime soon. Even at $5/gal we still use our cars and probably still will at $10/gal. I'ts one of our freedoms. We can go anywhere we want any time we like. Nobody will give that up without a fight. See Ric's post above.
[i][/i] When the American public comes to it's senses, and lose their love for the automobile then the rail will make a come back. [i][/i]
Amtrack serves a purpose, but I agree with Bob that fares are out of line. I’d like to take the Accella to Boston just for fun, but at $220/person round trip from Stamford, CT it won’t happen. I can drive there and pay for a hotel for that.
Quote:and also the airtraffic control system, all the interstates...I'd rather see them as toll roads run by some conglomerate. and of course public schools universities, fire depts. police etc. .... but most of all the military other than the national guard. After all.... every freaking adventure we've been on since and including Korea has mostly got the blue collar and poor kids killed. This was especially true in Vietnam. and don't give me no c@@p about national interest. the only national interest we had out there was projecting power to protect more c##p that we don't own or need so some fat cat can become more wealthy than he is now.
Amtrak should be privatized--(I doubt any tycoon out there would buy a dying or dead horse.) So should NASA and the Post Office.
And OBL… all we needed to do was nuke ol’ OBL in October 2001 and we would have been done with that problem.
