Large Scale Central

Waverly Southern's BDT&L Ry Track Plan

Track and Trestles
#1

Well, it’s time to start putting together a trackplan for the Waverly Southern RR. The WSRR will ultimately have several different divisions that will represent different eras and types of railroading. The first division I want to tackle is the Brown Dog Timber and Logging Railway. BDT&L Ry is a backwoods logging outfit that needed capital to expand their operations. WSRR stepped in to provide the capital by acquiring the assets but allowed BDT&L to continue to operate under its own name as subsidiary of WSRR.

Below is a list of Givens and Druthers that I have developed based on what I want in a logging RR. Notice that on space I have listed no reasonable constraints. I stated this because that, in and of itself, has been one of my biggest issues: where do I put the darn thing and how do I confine it. If I had an area that had dimensions of X x Y, I realize that it would limit what I could do but then again it would also define what I could do. Does that make any since? Anyway, here are my Givens and Druthers.

Brown Dog Timber & Logging Railway (Branch Line)

o Givens:
o Space: No reasonable constraints
o Available time and funding are the limiting factors
o Gauge: Fn3
o Scale: 1:20.3
o Era: Early to mid-20th century
o Prototype: Freelanced
o Track: Code 332 brass and aluminum
o Purpose: Primarily logging with some necessary freight for supplies and moving lumber to industries and to outside world
o Power: Battery/RC
o Airwire & Phoenix Sound
o Primary Operational Scheme: Switching
o Connections: Interchange with WSRR & Tiger Ry
o Industries: Sawmill, Freight house

• Druthers:
• Elevated, too old to crawl around on the ground
• Visualizing something similar to Richard Smiths’ Port Orford Coast RR and Ken Brunt’s RGS RR
• Curves: Radius(minimums) - 8 feet mainline, 6 feet branch line
• Turnouts: #8 mainline, #4 & #6 branch line
• Grade: max – 2% mainline, 5% branch line
• Geared locomotives
• All scratch built structures

• Some scratch built rolling stock

• Several logging camps
• Primary town is around sawmill
• Serve other industries in town
• Other possible industries:
• Lumber mill
• Mine (coal, minerals)
• Furniture
• Barrel mill
• Depot (served by WSRR)

I’ll let y’all chew on that info for a little while. Next I’ll post a photo of the proposed area for the RR and a draft (rough, rough draft) of a trackplan. Did I mention rough draft? Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance for all the help and comments I am sure to get. I do want input. This is a new endeavor for me. The actual construction will come natural, but designing a RR, well, let’s just say that after this one and the next one, that will make two I will have done.

#2

If you picture the area in your head, then picture what you want the RR to look like occupying that area, then everything starts to flow together, at least it did for me. Just don’t bite off more then you can chew, that can get you frustrated right off the bat. I had a track plan, but what was finally realized was no where near what the track plan had on it. Good luck and looking forward to what you come up with.

#3

Thanks Ken. I have a trackplan in mind (actually drawn). I know most folks here say just start laying track and let it lead you where you want to go, but since I am building the layout on an elevated platform similar to yours, I really need at least a conceptual plan for the track so I can get the benchwork in the right place. I do realize that the plan will change as the building starts and that is ok. The overall plan is quite big, but I have broken it into phases that make it more manageable and takes into account getting building materials in and out. The one thing I really need help on is putting the trackplan together for operations. I have read as much as I can on operations but have never experienced it myself. I need folks like yourself who have been there and done that to give suggestions on what to add to make the operations both enjoyable and somewhat challenging in certain areas. You will notice once I post the plan that I have accounted for getting trains from point A to Points B,C, etc. but not necessarily what to do once it gets there.

I’ll post some photos of the area and the trackplan later this evening.

#4

Ok, here is the area where I think I will start. North is up on the photo. The low point is in the southwest corner and the grade rises to the north and east by about 6 feet total.

Here is the same area with a 10ft grid overlaid on it. The red line is the actual tree line to the east.

The area labeled “Future Expansion Area” is dead flat and would be ideal for an elevated RR, but I have several underground utilities in that area and prefer not to build the RR over them. As soon as I do, I’ll have to dig the RR up to the repair utilities. I have a trackplan that I am working on. I should have it complete enough where I can post it later tonight.

#5

OMGram…Packing suitcase and heading to Dan’s place . Assuming the pond is stocked with warm water fish! I will help you build the RR!

#6

C’mon Rooster. I’ll catch at cook fish and you can build!! Just watch out for the RR’s CVG (Chief Varmint Getter), Shatzi. She is a fuzzy faced lady that does not like feathered creatures.

#7

Nice , BIG area to build on, Dan. Maybe when you get the track, before building benchwork do just spend a day plopping track on the ground to see what looks right , get a visual as to what will go where before starting. I did this and found some of my thoughts on paper didnt quite figure out when I put the track down. Of course since then everything has been removed so I can prepare the sub roadbeds. Look forward to seeing the napkin drawing of your plans.

#8

Dan Hilyer said:

Thanks Ken. I have a trackplan in mind (actually drawn). I know most folks here say just start laying track and let it lead you where you want to go, but since I am building the layout on an elevated platform similar to yours, I really need at least a conceptual plan for the track so I can get the benchwork in the right place.

Normally I would agree with that philosophy if you we’re just building the standard garden railroad on the ground. It’s a lot easier to change and move things around. Raised up your limited in that thinking. A good track planning program helps a lot to see what size platform you’ll need and what will fit in that area. There’s a few out there, some free, some not so free. Of course, free hand is cheaper too…(http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)

#9

Dan;

If you have never actually OPERATED a model railroad; it would be to your advantage to try to visit a few, in order to see and experience the actual operation. This would also let you see what might not appeal to you, and also the joy of a well designed pike that you would like to have. Most owners or even operators of OPERATING pikes will confess to the mistakes they have experienced, so that you won’t copy them, but make new mistakes of your own…!

You can often find an HO, or O scale pike near you, that operates. It often is hard to find a LS one that does much more than Roundy-Roundy.

Visit those “Other scale” pikes…you can learn from them too.

It is great to hear of another LS person interested in OPERATIONS…You are welcome to visit here, but unless you are retired and have the time and money to travel; we may be a might bit of a distance for you to travel…!!

If I can be of any assistance, please feel free to call or email.

Fred Mills www.ovgrs.org/

#10

Pete, I have all the track but I do need switches. Now that the challenge is over, I plan to start building the needed switches. Most of the layout will be code 332 aluminum while the switches will be made of brass. I am sure that whatever I put on paper will change somewhat once construction begins, but with everything being elevated 36-54 inches ( one trestle will be even higher), I really need a fairly accurate trackplan. And, I also have to consider access for operating and maintenance.

Ken, I am using a CAD program called MicroStation that I have used at work for 25 years. It is simple to draw the plan to scale so you can see how everything fits together. I started overlaying benchwork on top of one of the plan iterations and quickly realized that I had boxed myself in and access was going to be difficult, if not impossible.

Thanks Fred. Your advice is well taken. I will see if I can find any operating RR close by. I have called myself looking, but I will again. I do like to travel and although I am not retired just yet, I may take you up on the offer to visit. When it comes to travel, once you decide to get on a plane, no destination is too far.

#11

DISCLAIMER: What you are about to see may not be suitable for experienced track planners and designers. Please proceed at your own risk.

Ok, you’ve been warned.

One more chance ……

Oh well, here we go. Below are several iterations of trackplans for the given space. The first two are shown simply to show the progress of my learning. I am still wet behind the ears with this process but I am getting better, I believe. I am designing the layout in a CAD program called MicroStation. It is a civil design package used for architecture, roads, buildings, utilities, etc. I have been using it for about 25 years so it comes very easy. All the drawings are drawn to scale, including the switches. Once I get the simple line drawings where I want them, I will convert them to actual track. I have also started laying the benchwork over the plan and that has shown a lot of problems with access which is why I have made some of the changes.

I really need help making sure I have a good layout for operations. For instance, I want to include a small town somewhere between the engine area and the sawmill that will have a few small industries to serve and I am not sure about the track arrangement in such close quarters. Anyway, here are the plans thus far. Captions for each photo will be at the bottom of each photo.

This is the first iteration. as you can see, there is an engine servicing area, a sawmill and a few logging camps. The operating scheme that I am shooting for is simply moving logs from the camps to the sawmill. Now there will be a need to bring in supplies and move the rough lumber to a mill for final milling. I have not placed the mill yet that will come later. The loop on the green track will be mostly a tall trestle spanning a river gorge. It is there primarily to gain elevation and keep the grades reasonable. My first thought was to put the town along the light blue track, but it just became cluttered with all that curving track in a small area. The benchwork was going to be a problem with this plan too, I just didn’t figure it out until the next iteration.

This is the second iteration. This one seemed to flow a little better, but I quickly realized that I had boxed my self in. I started overlying the benchwork here and that got ugly. See below.

Now, in the CAD program all the benchwork is transparent so you can actually see the trackwork below. as you can clearly see, there would be no reasonable access to the engine facilities. So I came up with the bright idea to add an elevated crossover\viewing stand. Although, I will probably include several viewing stands, I prefer not need them for access.

Ok, here is the current plan. I still need to modify the purple trackwork because it still presents some access issues, but that will be simple enough to do. Please let me know what you think. If I need to scrap the whole idea and start over, I can do that too. again, thanks for all the help.

#12

A good start…

Now for a few thoughts…

On logging pikes, quite often the main locomotive, and car shops were near the destination of the logs, for example, the lumber mill. There may have been intermediate coal (Fuel) and water facilities, sometimes at a junction of branch lines, leading to the logging camps. A junction might also be a place where geared locomotives were changed out for rod locomotives, used on the more “Main line” tracks. (Depending on the size, and extent of the logging operation)

Consider also, a connection/interchange with a larger main line railroad, so that the product from the mill could be shipped out to the “Rest of the World”. The “Main line” railroad could be simulated, and represented by a few interchange tracks, and a line running into a tunnel.

I often contemplated building a major logging pike, but was dissuaded from it, because I wanted more variety in the train consists, and industries to be served. Our operations here do include an ore train, but it is a rather boring train to operate as all it does is haul non-discript loaded ore cars from several mines, to an interchange point, then the empties return. We don’t even worry about the car numbers (instead we just pick up “Kernels of cars”) The cars are all properly numbered, but for inventory purposes only. There is one guy that likes this rather simple run, but few do. We have about 40 cars (20 loads and 20 empties) dedicated to this service. I also have about the same number of log cars, but have never run that operation.

You could consider a mixed freight/passenger service to a Junction point, so loggers could “Get to town” on weekends, and supplies could be shipped in. This could be a major town at the junction; where the geared locos are exchanged for rod locomotives.

You have the space to build all of this, but as you suggested…DON"T overextend yourself…you have to maintain it.

It would also be a great idea to try to find…AS SOON AS YOU CAN…a like minded friend/relative/neighbour, as a helper, and the start of an operating crew. If you can find one or two, and involve them in the project, right at the start, you can end up with a great crew, when the operations start. Let them offer ideas, do some research and feel part of the game…it will pay off in the future.

Ask Ken about the IPP&W, and the great crew we have, we operate EVERY Saturday during the Summer. He visits here every year…

Fred

#13

Thanks for the input Fred. That is exactly what I need. Now, let me tell you a question or two. My plan was to build the town between the sawmill and the engine servicing area, but what I am hearing from you is I should build it so that it can be a specific destination away from the “logging” operations. Am I reading that correctly? Sounds logical. i have planned on an interchange with the WSRR just haven’t included it in the plan yet. I assume the interchange should be in the town or maybe just on the other side of town. Does that sound reasonable?

As far as help,fortunately, I have a 17 year old son that will help with the construction. He really isn’t interested in the trains themselves, but I believe he will come around once I get some track down where he can operate them in a realistic manner.

I have to be real careful about not getting to ambitious. I have plenty of room and plenty of track, but I want to do it right. My initial goal is to get a couple hundred feet of track installed on bench work that will allow me to do a little operating and testing locos and scratchbuilt rolling stock.

Again, I really appreciate the feedback and guidance.

#14

One more question Fred, what is the closest major airport near you?

#15

The closest International aerodrome to me is right here in Ottawa, Ontario, The Dominion of Canada; our capitol city.

You can plan your railroad any way that suits you, but looking at how the major Logging Pikes were built can give you lots of ideas. Combining mining is a good idea too; this gives you two models to research and get ideas from.

My first thought is to try to imagine (Helped by researching through all sorts of books on the subjects of Logging and Mining Railroads) how the ore, and the logs were going to be processed; where the labour was coming from; the type of logs, and ore; and where the product was going, and how it would be shipped.

There are other questions to be answered, but that’s a good start.

You could start with a small town on a main or branch line of some railroad, that was near but far enough from the resources, that a mining/logging company needed a line “Back into the bush”, so to speak, in order to get them out to market. Then, how much “Finishing” does this company intend on putting into the products ?

Logs, most often, at least lumber and later veneer logs most often went to a local mill, owned by the logging company, and were shipped ut as a finished product. Ore from a mine, depended on the type of ore, and what processing it required…coal most often was crushed, graded, and sent out as a finished product. Other ores required more extensive processing, and might just be shipped out as is, to a refinery in another part of the country…unless of course there was proven to be enough at the local mine/mines to justify building a major processing plant, that could last for a long period of time.

Eastern logging was quite different than Western. Eastern logs were smaller and required different types of rail cars, same as the different ores required different hopper cars. Irion ore was bloddy heavy, and required what we often call ore jennies, while coal could be loaded in larger cars because it was relatively light. Pulpwood, from the East usually was shipped on flat cars, in latter years, some with "Bulkheads on each end.

You see, Dan; there is more to building a model railroad, than just laying track, and hoping it will look and run well…it requires research, and more research. But…and it’s a big BUT…it is your railroad, and the bottom line is that the better you research it, and build it…the more you can enjoy it. A model railroad, just like a real one, is never finished, and can be a lifetime hobby.

It is nice that you may have some help from your son…encourage that, but do a bit of “Outreach” and involve a couple of others, if you can. It will pay-off in the future, with a major project like you are planning.

Fred Mills

#16

Looking and reading what others have suggested an interchange would work either southwest of the sawmill, along the 152ft banner or to the east between the sawmill and the engine shops. That would help with interchanging my BBQ and Beer with you firewood. Looks like a good plan so far, but I know nothing about logging ops, or ops in general.

#17

Personally, I would run everything around the perimeter and keep the middle open. Sure, it might look interesting to have all that, but you also have to maintain it too. Too many times people fall into the trap of wanting to fill every available space with track. Most of the time, less is more, at least to start. Also by keeping it on the perimeter, you have access to both sides easily. I would avoid an overly large bench work with all the support problems you would run into.

I’ve run on the POC a few times and although it runs in a straight line, it’s a very interesting layout to run on. Most of it is easily accessible from one side.

That’s my 2 cents worth.

#18

Keeping it simple:

Again, just my opinion.

#19

Good observation, and comment, Ken…

#20

Fred Mills said:

Good observation, and comment, Ken…

You taught me well, Fred. See, I do listen to you…sometimes…(http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)