looking at turnouts for my RR and I am trying to figure out how to compare brands when the all use different designations. looking at 332 brass, USA has a #6 which looks like a very large, easy diverging route turnout. LGB has a R8, Piko has a R5, Aristo has A #6 and a x wide and AML has a 8ft radius . Which are best size to use, trying to stay over 10’ diameter on all curves if that helps. I am not wanting brand comparisons, I have been told go as big as possible to make switching tracks easy, just what designation to look for that the different brands have
Pete the problem is that they are not speaking in apples to apples terms. Others will chime in and answer your questions better than I can. But numbered turnouts #4#6 #8 etc are prototypical turnouts. Which means they are straight into and straight out of the frog and there is some mystical formula that dictates how fast they diverge (in a straight line). So technically speaking they will never form a curve. With that said the none purists can tell you what they roughly are in terms of curvature.
The R guys are European manufactures making “toy” switches that curve through the frog. Oh by the way the # turnouts refer to the frog. So a #4 turnout has a #4 frog. Since they curve through the frog they do form a curved radius. Not sure how the numbers correlate or if they are uniform. I would guess the AML 8ft is also a toy switch.
Now I believe a #6 will get you over the 10 foot number.
Your likely to get some interesting answers. I know I learned a lot when I asked similar questions.
Nothing mystical about frog number, it’s the ratio of the length to the spread of the rails past the frog. The higher the number, the longer it takes for the 2 tracks to diverge.
If you look about, you can find the equivalent frog numbers for many of the Piko and LGB switches.
The Aristo WR (Wide Radius) switch matches a 10’ diameter curve and the frog is around a #4.
When making a yard, you need to balance the design with the “size” of the switches.
Basically if you use “sharp” switches, then you need to minimize S curves when working the yard.
The yard below uses Aristo WR switches in the body, and the leads off the main line use #6 switches.
Greg,
That brings up a question I have. Now I understand why a higher ratio frog is better for mainline operation. I asked earlier in a different thread about using #4s in my yard and was told that would be fine. Would #4s be fine in my wye configuration as well. Using #4s would make this area of my layout much more compact. Also I assume a Wye and A regluar turnout use the Same frog? I mean if I buy #4 frogs for making turnouts for the yard can I use the same #4 frog for the wye? Os is a wye frog different. I can’t picture it in y head.
Devion, since both tracks diverge, you can use a #2 frog, and each diverging line will divert at the same angle that they would on a #4 “normal” switch.
Does that require a special frog or is frog geometry the same? I would think it would be a different frog, but I can’t picture it for sure.
I will only have one wye so I will buy it, but I was just curious.
Devon,
The frog geometry is the same for any given frog number; i.e., a #4 left, a #4 right, and a #4 wye all use the same frog. Here is a #4 wye followed immediately by #8 left and right switches to return to a tangent. The #4 wye is equivalent to having the curved rails for a #8 left and #8 right superimposed on top of each other.
You could do the same with a #2 wye followed by two #4 switches, or a #3 wye followed by two #6 switches.
Bob
Devon Sinsley said:
Does that require a special frog or is frog geometry the same? I would think it would be a different frog, but I can’t picture it for sure.
I will only have one wye so I will buy it, but I was just curious
Train-li has some … Oooo $ http://www.trainli.com/products/listing/222
Also found this : LGB y switch on e-bay
In answer to an earlier question, a #6 wye frog is NOT the same as a #6 “normal” frog.
Bob’s picture above proves this, his picture shows a #6 wye followed by 2 #6 switches, and you can clearly see that the frog “angle” on the wye is twice that of the “normal” switches.
Just look at how far apart the rails are at the end of the switch.
The #6 wye has BOTH legs diverging from straight at the same angle, so the “curvature” the train sees is the same as taking the diverging route on a #6 switch.
Greg
Greg,
You’re wrong (I know … it doesn’t happen often.) A #6 frog in a wye switch is identical to a #6 frog in a left or right hand switch. Please go back and read my earlier post. I showed a #4 wye frog followed by two #8 frogs to return the legs to tangent.
Bob
OK but now wait. Are Greg and Bob contradicting one another or agreeing with one another in a ambiguous way.
I understand why I would want to use a wye with a frog number that is half the regular turnouts frog number. That makes sense sonlets drop that from the equation.
Speaking only about the frog and not an entire turnout. Is a #4 frog the same for right, left, and wye or is there a right frog, left frog, and wye frog. Seems to me that what has been said and what I can purchase is that they are the same they just need to be orientated according to their usage.
Well, I can tell you that the Aristo #6 wye frog is not the same as the Aristo #6 turnout. See my picture above the #6 wye is in front. You can see clearly that it’s frog is different and “wider” than the #6 following it.
I think we are both right in a way… from the raw measurements of a frog, frog number is clearly defined, Bob is correct… but from the practical perspective, at least Aristo made the #6 wye have the same diverging angle as the #6 turnout. This avoided confusion, since people would expect a #6 wye to have the same curvature as a #6 switch, right?
So, technically Bob is right. If you are buying Aristo switches though, I’m “right”. I cannot speak to other brands since I don’t have any of their products to measure.
The bottom line is that I really don’t care about the number of a wye as much as I use a #6 diverging angle on my main line switches, be they a wye or a normal turnout.
Regards, Greg
On the other question on frog numbers for a switchyard.
The first thing you need to realize is that what works well on a single switch on a mainline may not work well in a switchyard, since you can easily create S curves due to switches right next to each other.
If you look at my switchyard above, if you enter it, but wait until the last track to “turn” you have a nice straight between the RH and LH switches.
But if you enter the yard, and try to take the very first body track, you have a nasty S curve of back to back switches, left then right.
So your constraints will be different.
Now to the answer (in my opinion) to Devon:
If you use all short cars, #4 in a switchyard or even tighter will be ok.
If you use 50 foot cars, you may have issues, or restricted movements.
If you use full length passenger cars, #4 can be a challenge. Anything less is pretty nuts.
Just my observations from actually doing switching on what you see.
Regards, Greg
I see where both of you guys are coming from and I think both are agreeing more or less but are using different products. Bob is speaking frog geometry and Greg is speaking specifically Aristo products.
So that really does answer my question in that a #4 frog is a #4 frog. I played with anyrail to visualize what Bob was saying and the 1/2 # wye does line up with the corresponding full number standard turnout to bring everything back into tangent. So if I use a Llagas #4 frog to build my standard turnouts for my wye then at its peak I will need a #2 wye (llagas doe not make a #2 though so I might have to make that on my own). That’s really the info I was looking for.
I apologize to Pete for hijacking h is thread.
Can we please answer his question about turnouts and corresponding curvatures.
I answered to you, but it was an answer to Pete also…
I have found the Aristo WR switches to be very good and trains run smoothly through them, although shimming the guardrails helps if you have correctly gauged equipment.
I would not recommend anything tighter in a yard unless you had only very short cars, and then I would use turnouts that are a “8 foot diameter” equivalent.
Anything sharper and you get S curved and derailments… remember a yard is different from a bunch of storage tracks.
Greg
Devon, yes a frog is the same. There is no right, left and Wye frog.
Greg is agreeing with us, although I am not sure he knows it. He is saying that the tracks on an Aristo #6 Wye diverge from each other faster then on a #6 switch. Yes, Because if the diverging angles are the same as the corresponding switch, but both tracks diverge at that angle, what you really have is a number 3 Wye. But, If I were to package a Why as a number 3 Wye, almost no one would buy it, because too many people would equate it with a number 3 switch. So the Aristo product is sort of mislabeled, but for a good reason…
EXACTLY, give that man a Kewpie Doll !!!
Great! (http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-undecided.gif)I can stand it up beside my GI Joe doll, with the kung fu grip, next to the leg lamp. (http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-tongue-out.gif)
It will go perfectly!
