Ken, perhaps a read of this http://hasbrouck.org/blog/archives/001001.html would be in order.
Maybe even this http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-12-30-cheap-flights_N.htm
Sounds to me like a good argument for less government…then again, we sure have had enough airlines go out of business in the last 50 years.
Then point is governments do support the airline industry.
Just like Railways and roads.
I get the point …and I stand corrected.
Thanks Ken.
I am not saying whether support should be given or not. Merely that it is.
And that was the point of the whole discussion. Rail and airline subsidies benefit a few people while highway subsidies benefit a very large majority of people. Matter of fact just about everybody.
Ralph Berg said:Ric Golding said:
Ralph stated -"Anyone catch the program on RFDTV this morning?
Amazing to see all the trolleys we had at one time. I lived in Dallas for several years. They sure could have benefited from the trolleys they once had.
Sad that much of the mass transit trolley system we once had is gone.This was my original post. Somehow this infringes on ones freedom. I have already banged my head on the wall, gouged out my eyes and am contemplating cutting off my only five fingers. Proper penance for such an inflammatory post."
But Ralph, you followed it with this one -
“Mass transit can compete with the automobile. Just look to Europe where the cost of auto ownership has been high for decades.
And if you take into account traffic, it is able to compete in many urban areas.
We are, selfish elitists who tend to feel mass transit is for the poor.
We will spend our last dollar to drive while buses and subways roll by empty.”I don’t consider myself, my family or my friends “selfish elitists”. I feel we work hard for the pleasures we enjoy and the freedom we have. And I really don’t care to look to Europe for advice on how to do things. We have defended and supported Europe for too long. And if we spend our last dollar doing what we want isn’t that “Freedom”. Please go in peace, pull the nail out of your forehead, put ice on the bump from the board, but only do it if you want to.
Selfish elitist was indeed a poor choice of words. Very antagonistic and not very constructive. My apologies for my momentary brain fart.
As for Europe or Asia or where ever…if they have something that works well I have no problem acknowledging this. There are many examples around the world of what to do, as well as what not to do.
Ralph
100% agreement. Thank you for tolerating my opinion.
Mike,
You said - "I’m not arguing that cars and trucks and highways don’t have advantages, just that they don’t represent the “free” choice. Cars and trucks are heavily heavily subsidized by taxpayer dollars–they aren’t just the magic workings of the “free market.”
When I have used the words “free choice” or “freedom” I certainly don’t mean to say that I don’t think we pay for these items. I know we pay dearly. What I am referring to is “freedom” to travel on a schedule that I set. “Freedom” to decide if I want to take a mass transit unit, even an airplane, or spend my money to drive or whatever. Sailers have a reputation of the thinking the wind is free so everything else should be. I try hard to always pay my way to overcome that stigma. Just let me have the choice of making those decisions. Even if they are bad ones. Thank you for tolerating my opinion.
Even the wind is not “free.”
Time and tide wait for no man…
Ken Brunt said:It is only because of our mind set that more benefit from highway subsidies. But even if one does not use mass transit........you benefit from it. The roads you use would be less crowded if some type of mass transit was available. And, if we reduce our oil consumption the price of gas drops for those driving. And as you saw by the numbers.....highway subsidies are huge compared to rail. I can remember in 1980 sitting in bumper to bumper traffic for hours in Dallas. After watching the program on trolleys and seeing the trolley service they once had in Dallas......it sadden me that "progress" had ripped up the trolley lines in favor of concrete highways that were in effect giant parking lots. Ralph
And that was the point of the whole discussion. Rail and airline subsidies benefit a few people while highway subsidies benefit a very large majority of people. Matter of fact just about everybody.
I know what everyone means when they say “freedom isn’t free,” but think about it–if freedom isn’t free then it must be costly, and if it’s costly then a rich person must have more freedom than you or me. Now Bill Gates can surely afford more stuff than me, but does the make him more free? No, it just gives him more options.
Freedom of thought, of opinion, is completely free–it costs me nothing. It’s free to anyone to think as they wish. But expressing those thoughts–well, someone is always trying to put a price on the right. You can’t say that, that’s no good, that’s profane, that’s irreligious, that’s anti-american–somebody is always trying to put a surcharge and a tarrif and a limit on freedom, and control access to your right to express it. But the basic freedom of opinion, the most central and important freedom, is free as the air
and you do know what they say about opinions, dontcha?..
Ken Brunt said:
As for Amtrak, the only place they make any money is the heavily traveled Northeast Corridor from NY to WDC. They also own much of the track in that corridor.SEPTA is another regional rail line in this area. They also own most of the track they use and they are heavily used by commuters going into and out of Philadelphia. They also loose quite a lot of money every year. So they are subsidized by both Phila. and the government.
Cars aren’t free by a long shot, but they do aid greatly by being a lot more convenient than mass transportation. An hour and a half commute to the city takes a half hour to 45 minutes by car. Traffic jams and all…
Ken,
Two things to ponder.
- What would that 45 minute drive be if there was no train and the train passengers were sharing the road with you?
- What are they doing wrong with their rail system that travel time is double?
And they must be doing something wrong.
Ralph
mike omalley said:
I know what everyone means when they say "freedom isn't free," but think about it--if freedom isn't free then it must be costly, and if it's costly then a rich person must have more freedom than you or me. Now Bill Gates can surely afford more stuff than me, but does the make him more free? No, it just gives him more options.Freedom of thought, of opinion, is completely free–it costs me nothing. It’s free to anyone to think as they wish. But expressing those thoughts–well, someone is always trying to put a price on the right. You can’t say that, that’s no good, that’s profane, that’s irreligious, that’s anti-american–somebody is always trying to put a surcharge and a tarrif and a limit on freedom, and control access to your right to express it. But the basic freedom of opinion, the most central and important freedom, is free as the air
Mike,
Freeedom has little to do with wealth, but a lot to do with conviction and I totally agree with what you say. Some people have no clue how precious this is. And the ones that know it the least seem to enjoy the attributes of it the most. Sometimes you just want to walk up and slap them silly. I gave 21 years of my personal “Freedom” to guarentee “Freedom” for myself, my family and fellow citzens. My son gave 7 years of his life and went in “Harms Way” for others “Freedom”. Some here and too many others have given flesh for our “Freedom”. Many others have served and many have lost loved ones that gave everything for this precious “Freedom”. We may have a screwed up political system, run by corrupt self-serving people, but we can voice our opinion and call them all parasites, without fear of reprisal. And with luck we can put other parasites in office that say they agree with our opinions and then do the opposite. I love the options of making decisions for myself, even when I really make bad ones.
Ralph, I’ve pondered that many a time. The closest rail center to me is in Media, Pa. At rush hour in the morning it can take close to 45 minutes just to get there. In the same amount time or a bit longer, I can be in Phila. The ride from Media into Center City Phila is close to an hour long. The have Express trains that bypass certain stations, but with close to 20 stops on the way in to town it’s a long commute. Even at 5 minutes a stop, that’s 50 minutes added to the ride on an Express which only stops at half the stations. When I first started working and was living with my parents I took the train in to work. The station is a 5 minute walk from where they live. This was back in the old PennCentral days. The ride took me to 30th Street station in West Philadelphia. From there I had a to take a subway ride from 30th st to 45th St. where I was working at the time. 1/2 hour to 30th St. and maybe 15 to 20 minutes to 45th St. The subway had stations about 2 blocks apart and stopped at every one. Frankly , I can’t see where they’re actually doing any thing wrong. Just stopping at stations takes up a certain amount of time to discharge and take on passengers. With the job I had working overtime to wee hours of the morning, at that time of night there were no trains running, so I had to rely on either my parents coming in to pick me up or catching a ride home with a co-worker. When I finally bought a car the drive into work was 20 minutes, tops.
In the mornings nowadays, most of those trains are packed by the time they get into the city, standing room only. And most of the people that use them either walk to the station or have a short drive to get there.
I can’t imagine what the commute would be without the regional rails, but with the amount of people that use them everyday to get into and out of the city, what I wonder is what they’re doing wrong if they’re loosing money. Then again, the infrastructure has been in place for close to a hundred years, so maybe maintenance is the big money hole.
I was also lucky in that I worked for a public utility that had offices scattered around SE Pa. I had the oppurtunity to work outside the city and took it. My workplace for the last 30 years was 10 minutes away.
Well, Gentlemen … there have been quite a few dissertations written on the folly of NA city and environs planning. If I would have to summarize it: it’s the well known “WOW” factor, also known as “urban sprawl” in its many incarnations.
Another take on public transit:
I live ~3 1/2 hours (by car) north of San Francisco. I go into downtown SF on business or to attend various conferences and exhibitions several times a year. Rather than drive across the Golden Gate Bridge, then try to find and pay for parking in SF, I really like to take the ferry from Larkspur to the Ferry Building at the foot of Market Street, then walk or take the Muni streetcars to my destination.
This is especially interesting for me personally, as my grandparents owned a couple of restaurants in SF during the 1930s and commuted daily on the transbay ferries, going through the famous foot of Market Street Ferry Building. The Ferry Building itself has recently been fully restored and is a real centerpiece at the Embarcadero. The GG ferries run on good schedules and the trip is great.
The problem comes when one tries to park at the Larkspur Ferry Terminal. Although the parking is free, it is so limited as to be unavailable most of the day. The ‘environmentalists’ (I actually started to write “wackos”, but didn’t want some of my fellow LSC members to have a stroke) have only made some weak arguments against the ferries (they claim they burn fuel and pollute the bay), but they absolutely won’t let the ferry operating authority increase the parking, as it would require filling an acre or two of the bay. In fact, the Marin County environmentalists have also successfully closed all parking on the public streets around the ferry terminal.
My other choice would be a bus from somewhere with parking in Sonoma County directly into the city, bypassing the ferry. Dependent on where I caught the bus, that could take several hours, with either a 3:00 am start from my house, or too late an arrival in SF to conduct my business in a single day.
There is currently a ballot issue to get rail transit going from Cloverdale to Larkspur over the former Northwestern Pacific ROW, but it has already been voted down twice, with the Marin County folks leading the “no” vote. The Marin ‘environmentalists’ are again out in force against the issue, as they don’t want trains running through their elitist communities. The city of Novato has brought a lawsuit to stop any repairs to the railroad demanding that their conditions be met before any trains can resume running.
To go along with this, our governor has appointed two anti-railroad Marin County politicos to the railway board. These guys go the the railway board legal strategy meetings, then return to their Novato homes and inform the opposing counsel of the legal strategy of the railway board.
So, bottom line is that I usually drive into the city, adding to the congestion and taking my chances on parking. Beats making a 3 1/2 hour trip into a 5 hour one or suffering the uncertainties of parking at the ferry terminal.
Did I mention that my taxes go to support this unusable and untenable system? I recently saw some expenditure figures for the (non-operational) railroad: Legal fees, paid from my taxes are their largest expenditure!
Happy RRing,
Jerry
Jerry,
Environmentalists fighting mass transit and light rail. Go figure. Talk about biting your nose off to spite your face.
No disrespect intended, Jerry. But I don’t think I could live in California. Just reading about some of the things you guys pass along is bad enough.
I know it is a beautiful state. Maybe one day common sense will prevail.
Ralph
Strike that Jerry.
Things are really the same everywhere. The difference is to what degree.
I think we are catching up here in North Carolina.
Ralph Berg said:You're right about the "beautiful state" part. I'm a native Californian, but have enjoyed living in several foreign countries for extended periods and have repeatedly traveled much of the world. I'm usually happiest when I'm 'home.' I still feel very fortunate to be able to live where I do.
Jerry, Environmentalists fighting mass transit and light rail. Go figure. Talk about biting your nose off to spite your face. No disrespect intended, Jerry. But I don't think I could live in California. Just reading about some of the things you guys pass along is bad enough. I know it is a beautiful state. Maybe one day common sense will prevail. Ralph
As to . . . common sense prevailing . . .", at my age of 66, it’s a good bet that it’s not going to happen while I’m around to notice.
Ralph Berg said:I'm truly sorry to hear that, but it's probably reality. If I was younger, I might consider organizing the 2010 version of the Boston Tea Party!
Strike that Jerry. Things are really the same everywhere. The difference is to what degree. I think we are catching up here in North Carolina.
Happy RRing,
Jerry
I am younger…but no where near young enough.
Our battles are now waged with words.
Ralph