My son-in-law frequently takes the Sounder from Vancouver, WA to Seattle, gets off at Safeco Field stop, goes to the game, has a few brews, takes the Sounder back to Vancouver, arrives rested and sober, and then drives the 5 miles home. The fare on the Sounder is much less than he can drive and park for, not counting the hassle factor.
Ralph Berg said:This was my original post. Somehow this infringes on ones freedom. I have already banged my head on the wall, gouged out my eyes and am contemplating cutting off my only five fingers. Proper penance for such an inflammatory post. Ralph
Anyone catch the program on RFDTV this morning? Amazing to see all the trolleys we had at one time. I lived in Dallas for several years. They sure could have benefited from the trolleys they once had. Sad that much of the mass transit trolley system we once had is gone. Ralph
shame on you Ralph…good thing you posted this on LSC…some other boards would have banned you for the inciting violence~
again, I watched it liked the first half better (texas) due to the Swing Music~
Ralph, you should know that no good deed goes unpunished.
Well,
Sometimes you want to talk about trains. Sometimes politics. I talk politics plenty.
Although one can turn any discussion political, it doesn’t mean somebody should.
Ralph
Heck, its my own fault. Jumped at the first bait thrown my way.
OTOH, I rode the trolley a lot in San Diego, once I figured out how to get off the darn thing. My first ride, I had to transfer at the Convention Center, and tried to get off on the wrong side. Couldn’t get the door to open. Rode the train two miles the wrong way before I could get off to go back for another try.
Why don’t they put signs that say “Get off this side, stupid,” for rubes like me?
The reason for no sign is it would have to be printed tooo many languages! Any way no would go there!
Paul
Ralph,
You said - “I guess using that logic our military pushes on the freedom issue.”
No sir, protection of our freedom is the job of a national government and that is the use of the military.
“No children in schools? I guess you wouldn’t want to pay for that either. Another freedom issue?”
I believe a major problem with our school systems is the government involvement. Schools use to be run by local school boards controlling local funds, now we have state departments of education and federal departments of education mandating how school tax money is spent and we pay more, while our children get less. I believe that is referred to as the dumbing of America. Let’s bring all our children down to the education of the bastard child of an inter-city druggy, so he can feel good about himself or herself ( We must be politcally correct).
Let’s talk about trains. I like Interurbans. Ride every old one I can. I like mass transit. Ride them for fun, hardly ever ride them for value. They go very few places I’d like to go. We visit a lot of museums with old trolley and interurban equipment. You know, I’ve worked hard for the life I have and enjoy it a lot. I like the freedom I have. I will say I don’t feel I could have visited many of those museums if I relied on mass transit.
Ralph Berg said:Hehhehhhehhhhhehhhhhhhhhe HihihihiRalph Berg said:This was my original post. Somehow this infringes on ones freedom. I have already banged my head on the wall, gouged out my eyes and am contemplating cutting off my only five fingers. Proper penance for such an inflammatory post. Ralph
Anyone catch the program on RFDTV this morning? Amazing to see all the trolleys we had at one time. I lived in Dallas for several years. They sure could have benefited from the trolleys they once had. Sad that much of the mass transit trolley system we once had is gone. Ralph
And you thought of printing a T-shirt?? Me thinks you have to make it a hair shirt! 
:lol: But you’ll be fine, give it another six months of breaking in period. :lol: 
Ralph stated -
"Anyone catch the program on RFDTV this morning?
Amazing to see all the trolleys we had at one time. I lived in Dallas for several years. They sure could have benefited from the trolleys they once had.
Sad that much of the mass transit trolley system we once had is gone.
This was my original post. Somehow this infringes on ones freedom. I have already banged my head on the wall, gouged out my eyes and am contemplating cutting off my only five fingers. Proper penance for such an inflammatory post."
But Ralph, you followed it with this one -
“Mass transit can compete with the automobile. Just look to Europe where the cost of auto ownership has been high for decades.
And if you take into account traffic, it is able to compete in many urban areas.
We are, selfish elitists who tend to feel mass transit is for the poor.
We will spend our last dollar to drive while buses and subways roll by empty.”
I don’t consider myself, my family or my friends “selfish elitists”. I feel we work hard for the pleasures we enjoy and the freedom we have. And I really don’t care to look to Europe for advice on how to do things. We have defended and supported Europe for too long. And if we spend our last dollar doing what we want isn’t that “Freedom”. Please go in peace, pull the nail out of your forehead, put ice on the bump from the board, but only do it if you want to.
Ric Golding said:
Ralph stated -"Anyone catch the program on RFDTV this morning?
Amazing to see all the trolleys we had at one time. I lived in Dallas for several years. They sure could have benefited from the trolleys they once had.
Sad that much of the mass transit trolley system we once had is gone.This was my original post. Somehow this infringes on ones freedom. I have already banged my head on the wall, gouged out my eyes and am contemplating cutting off my only five fingers. Proper penance for such an inflammatory post."
But Ralph, you followed it with this one -
“Mass transit can compete with the automobile. Just look to Europe where the cost of auto ownership has been high for decades.
And if you take into account traffic, it is able to compete in many urban areas.
We are, selfish elitists who tend to feel mass transit is for the poor.
We will spend our last dollar to drive while buses and subways roll by empty.”I don’t consider myself, my family or my friends “selfish elitists”. I feel we work hard for the pleasures we enjoy and the freedom we have. And I really don’t care to look to Europe for advice on how to do things. We have defended and supported Europe for too long. And if we spend our last dollar doing what we want isn’t that “Freedom”. Please go in peace, pull the nail out of your forehead, put ice on the bump from the board, but only do it if you want to.
Selfish elitist was indeed a poor choice of words. Very antagonistic and not very constructive. My apologies for my momentary brain fart.
As for Europe or Asia or where ever…if they have something that works well I have no problem acknowledging this. There are many examples around the world of what to do, as well as what not to do.
Ralph
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
Hehhehhhehhhhhehhhhhhhhhe HihihihiAnd you thought of printing a T-shirt?? Me thinks you have to make it a hair shirt!
HJ,
I’m fine. Momentary case of “the arse”.
I’m still working on some ideas for the back side of the shirt.
Ralph
It’s common to object to mass transit in terms of the tax cost. What’s less obvious is the heavy, heavy subsidy of automobiles in the form of road construction. a huge amount of your tax dollars have gone to and continue to go to building roads. The federal Aid Highway Act of 1956 allocated 25 billion of taxpayer’s money to build freeways; it was updated in 1973 with and additional 18 billion. And that’s just the major highways–see belowSo how much light rail do you think we could have built with 45 billion dollars?
But instead, the money went to highways, which encouraged people to move out on the interstate, which demanded more taxpayer’s money for roads, which led to our current dilemna.
There are a lot of reasons to prefer cars, but the idea that cars are “free” is just wrong. Don’t believe me, here’s Paul Weyrich, conservative activist
"As has been noted by well known conservative Paul Weyrich, of the Free Congress Foundation, the current transportation system, dominated by highway and air transportation is by no means a free market outcome. Rather it is the result of massive and sustained government intervention on behalf of these two modes. Indeed, before government became involved on this massive scale, most transit and intercity rail passenger systems were privately owned for-profit enterprises.
U.S. Department of Transportation Funding, 2002:
$32,300,000,000 54% Highways
$14,000,000,000 23% Aviation/ airports
$ 5,000,000,000 Mass transit
$ 4,000,000,000 Maritime
$ 521,000,000 -1% Amtrak
$60,000,000,000 TOTAL USDOT BUDGET"
here’s the link, with a quote:
“Much is made of the $30 billion spent on Amtrak over the last 30 years, but in that same period the federal government spent $1.89 TRILLION on air and highway modes, according to the New York Times and Washington Post.”
1.89 TRILLION. Some of that is airport maintenance, but most is roads
So that’s a huge amount of tax money going to fund roads–it’s a massive subsidy for the automobile industry.
Highway construction and maintenance comes under the "regulation of Commerce"which Congress has every right to do according to the Constitution. Automobiles aren’t the only things that use them. Trucks that haul freight from one area of the country to another are greatly aided by these subsidies. They also pay for a large portion of those subsidies in road-use taxes and fuel taxes. You may not like sharing the road with 18 wheelers, but there isn’t much that you can buy in a store that wasn’t delivered by trucks in one form or another. I couldn’t imagine having to drive to Florida in a truck and having to stop for traffic lights every mile or 2.
As for Amtrak, the only place they make any money is the heavily traveled Northeast Corridor from NY to WDC. They also own much of the track in that corridor.
SEPTA is another regional rail line in this area. They also own most of the track they use and they are heavily used by commuters going into and out of Philadelphia. They also loose quite a lot of money every year. So they are subsidized by both Phila. and the government.
Cars aren’t free by a long shot, but they do aid greatly by being a lot more convenient than mass transportation. An hour and a half commute to the city takes a half hour to 45 minutes by car. Traffic jams and all…
I’m not arguing that cars and trucks and highways don’t have advantages, just that they don’t represent the “free” choice. Cars and trucks are heavily heavily subsidized by taxpayer dollars–they aren’t just the magic workings of the “free market.”
I grew up Lansdale, PA and can remember taking the Septa R5 when it was the Reading. I’ve logged many many hours on the R5. I frequently take it when I come up to visit my folks.
Who cares if SEPTA loses money? It’s not a profit making enterprise–it’s part of the infrastructure that enables profit making. Same as the highways. Think of it this way–the highway system loses WAY more money than SEPTA. Federal highways are not profit making. But their construction enables profit making. People point to SEPTA, or the DC metro, losing money. But no one points out that the Schuylkill expressway or the DC beltway are gigantic, constant sinks of taxpayer money.
Or maybe look at it this way–how much profit does Interstate 80 make? Not one dime. It costs us billions a year. Is it of benefit to the taxpayers and the nation? Yes. So how about we apply the same argument to rail?
I don’t see any way we can apply the same argument to rail? Rails don’t extend to everyone’s driveway. You still need a way to get from your home to a rail center. For me that’s a a half hour drive. The argument is about “Freedom Of Choice” , not a “free” choice. Ain’t nothing 'free"…especially 'Freedom"…
Actually, contrary to the slogan, freedom is free. It costs nothing at all to be free. But governments, societies and religions keep imposing steep markups on the exercise of people’s freedom, all along the way, till where we think freedom is something we have to buy or beg for.
Roads go to your door because taxes have put them there. Taxes could put rail down the middle of your street if the taxpayers so chose–it might be better, it might not. Speaking for myself, I’d prefer more rail and less road, more density and less sprawl, more walking and less driving. But my choices are not everyone’s, nor should they be
Well, maybe the use of the word “Freedom” is free, but even in the animal world which doesn’t have governments, religions or societies, Freedom comes with a certain amount of struggle…
Ken Brunt said:Airline runways don't go to your door either, yet all governments support the airline industries with public monies.
I don't see any way we can apply the same argument to rail? Rails don't extend to everyone's driveway. You still need a way to get from your home to a rail center. For me that's a a half hour drive. The argument is about "Freedom Of Choice" , not a "free" choice. Ain't nothing 'free"................especially 'Freedom".............
Our airlines aren’t. They sink or swim on their own…airports are somewhat, but the airlines pay for the privilege of using them. Most of ours are self sustaining, with concessions, parking and other fees.