Anyone catch the program on RFDTV this morning?
Amazing to see all the trolleys we had at one time. I lived in Dallas for several years. They sure could have benefited from the trolleys they once had.
Sad that much of the mass transit trolley system we once had is gone.
Ralph
I hope Dennis sees this one, we’re watching on the DVR now…it’s good, but the Music is Better…I love ole’ Swing!
nowadays people wouldn’t want the infastructure to keep something like that alive…too ‘ugly’ for most…
We’ve visited the PA trolley museum a few times when up that way, the kids love it (me too)!
cale
…oh boy…don’t get me going on street cars and interurbin …I lived in Montreal and remember the old Montreal tramways, and the interurbin pike that ran South across the St Lawrence River (Montreal & Southern Counties). We moved to Ottawa and we had a great street car system her also. All gone now, but a bit is preserved in Delson Quebec; Kennybunkport; and West of Toronto.
For a great weekend; just head to Toronto and ride the street cars there for a day. You get a good tour of the city on an inexpensive day pass. Then after if you still like the feel of steel wheel on rail; ride the subway system.
It might not be comfortable for a few to think that riding a street car, or subway, can be relatively safe these days; but Toronto is a rather safe system to ride; even at night.
Enjoy…
It is really sad what occured with the expansive electric transportation system that we once had in place .
And from here in Indiana , which had the largest electric railway trackage amount , its really sad .
Sad to say , but just as in so many other subjects , the American public is just so many sheep to be sheared , [relived of our money ] , by many industries , and the government .
Trolley systems fell out of favor with the public for the same reason that the horse and buggy did - it simply couldn’t compete against the advantages of the automobile. No big evil conspiracy is needed to explain it.
Although I love old steam locos, I have no desire to revert to 19th Century transportation technology.
Ray Dunakin said:
Trolley systems fell out of favor with the public for the same reason that the horse and buggy did - it simply couldn't compete against the advantages of the automobile. No big evil conspiracy is needed to explain it.Although I love old steam locos, I have no desire to revert to 19th Century transportation technology.
Mass transit can compete with the automobile. Just look to Europe where the cost of auto ownership has been high for decades.
And if you take into account traffic, it is able to compete in many urban areas.
We are, selfish elitists who tend to feel mass transit is for the poor.
We will spend our last dollar to drive while buses and subways roll by empty.
Ralph
“We will spend our last dollar to drive while buses and subways roll by empty.”
Ralph doesn’t this statement kind of push on that “FREEDOM” issue a little bit? Shouldn’t it be a person’s right to spend his/her money the way they want and not the way it is dicatated in some university lab or government committee room?
Another point is this constant reference to the way things are done in Europe. Certainly not a desire that many Americans wish to persue. This stated without wanting to offend our European friends or for that matter anyone else. Freedom means we get to make the decisions not some elitist that thinks he/she knows better.
Ric Golding said:
"We will spend our last dollar to drive while buses and subways roll by empty."Ralph doesn’t this statement kind of push on that “FREEDOM” issue a little bit? Shouldn’t it be a person’s right to spend his/her money the way they want and not the way it is dicatated in some university lab or government committee room?
Another point is this constant reference to the way things are done in Europe. Certainly not a desire that many Americans wish to persue. This stated without wanting to offend our European friends or for that matter anyone else. Freedom means we get to make the decisions not some elitist that thinks he/she knows better.
How does this push on the “freedom” issue in any way?
I did not say we should be forced to use mass transit. We are certainly free to squander our last dollar as we see fit.
As to referencing the superior mass transit in Europe, whats wrong with that? I am intelligent enough to know that not everything is better in the USA. Certainly doesn’t make me unpatriotic to point out our deficiencies.
I am also intelligent enough to know that some things are better here than in Europe.
Ralph
You are all forgetting the size difference between the countries in Europe compared to the US. There are still mass transit systems that run full in large cities. However, there is no way a mass commuter system could compete with the automobile in the less dense populations of small town America. Please don’t suggest our government start regulating and subsidizing mass transit “FOR THE GOOD OF THE PEOPLE”. We don’t need a lot of burocrates making decisions for us on how we should travel around the country. It is bad enough that we will probably have national health care after this years election. I can hardly wait.
My two cents:
On my reasonably frequent visits to Europe - mostly Switzerland - I haven’t driven a car since 1972. I use public transit to get where I’m going. Using a car over there, especially in the cities, is lunacy - too many nuts and not enough parking.
Of course I got a reminder of the same lunacy on my trip to Vancouver last week. Perfect reminder why I prefer to live where I live.
Ralph Berg said:Well, we live about five miles out of town ingoing, and seven miles outgoing, thanks to the wonders of a ring-road and one-way road system, and since we are both now over sixty, we get a free bus pass that works anywhere in England. We use it except when we have to do a shopping trip, or fetch the daughter and grandaughter from their respective locations.
Just look to Europe where the cost of auto ownership has been high for decades. And if you take into account traffic, it is able to compete in many urban areas. We are, selfish elitists who tend to feel mass transit is for the poor. We will spend our last dollar to drive while buses and subways roll by empty. Ralph
Y’see, over here you get to pay road tax [that’s on top of the almost 80% tax on gasoline], and the figure is based on -
a. the size of your car
b. the size of the engine
c. the projected emissions from your car.
So because we need a pretty large vehicle to haul daughter and her wheel-chair, grand-daughter and her babby-seat plus pushchair and all the other stuff that small people need, we end up paying around $1000 road tax for each of our two cars. Four wheel drive is not a for-fun thing here - we live in the agricultural rurals, and we get some pretty nasty flooding, usually along the roads we travel on to get from place to place. I’ve had to haul adventurous drivers out of the shite three times this year so far.
Add to that the insurance of around $1000 each, and gas at almost $14 a gallon, and you can see why buses anre so appealing to us. Sadly, not one bus within fifty miles is accessible to anybody in a wheelchair…
Buses? We love 'em.
Trolley cars, well, not in our area, but they are making a huge comeback in cities throughout the UK.
tac
Ralph,
You asked - “How does this push on the “freedom” issue in any way?”
It pushes the “freedom” issue because the transit systems in Europe and the large cities of the USA are paid by taxes, not by a capitalistic venture. I don’t see why I should have to shell out more of my earned income or investment income on a project that doesn’t benefit me or my family. If I used it, I would be willing to pay for it. Governments do not resolve problems, they are the problems.
they’d never work around here, we are too spread out…the city has buses, and I’d bet it’s a failing venture that in the end cost me (a biz owner in the city) more taxes…it’s nice to reminisce, but I doubt it would ever benefit me here in rural/sub-urban SC…
Ric Golding said:
Ralph,You asked - “How does this push on the “freedom” issue in any way?”
It pushes the “freedom” issue because the transit systems in Europe and the large cities of the USA are paid by taxes, not by a capitalistic venture. I don’t see why I should have to shell out more of my earned income or investment income on a project that doesn’t benefit me or my family. If I used it, I would be willing to pay for it. Governments do not resolve problems, they are the problems.
I guess using that logic our military pushes on the freedom issue.
No children in schools? I guess you wouldn’t want to pay for that either. Another freedom issue?
We keep up with the deficit spending and the massive transfer of wealth to the oil nations and any freedom we have will be a thing of the past.
Those with the money rule. We are well on our way to being those without the money.
“If it doesn’t benefit me or my family” This is a prime example of what is wrong with the world today. It is a ME ME ME world where nobody gives a rat’s ass about what is right or wrong as long as it benefits them.
The fact of the matter is that any reduction in oil consumption will benefit all of us
Ralph
Well, I wouldn’t mind taking the train for long distance journeys. I’m not sure that using light rail would work for my situation here in Deer Park.
My job is in downtown Spokane, more than 20 miles away. As it is now, there is no bus that leaves from Deer Park, going anywhere, except one that would get me downtown well after job start time.
Now, if they were to use the existing rail line that goes through Deer Park from Spokane that wanders through the hinterland, finally getting to Hillyard, and then to Spokane, the journey would take two hours, minimum. It take me thirty minutes to drive there, and that is on surface streets, because the bonehead politicians and the local fishwrap have been fighting over the idea of a freeway for the last 40 or more years.
So, yeah, its all about me.
John Spehar said:Why does the mention of having something available for use draw all these responses about being forced or regulated to use? Most of our large urban areas have very poor mass transit. We have a high speed train that will do 150mph but can only do so for 18 miles because of poor infrastructure. Obviously small towns and rural areas are not candidates for mass transit. As for national health care....obviously you have insurance. I have lost three friends over the years because they had no insurance. One needed a liver......was told to go home and die. The very same week Larry Hagman got his liver within 48 hours of finding out he needed one. Health care is no longer affordable. It is not the fault of the poor. My daughter recently had out-patient surgery. Just a few hours total. The bill was almost $50,000. The "haves" care little about the "have nots". Contrary to popular belief, not all poor people are poor because they are lazy. Remember.....There but for the grace of God, go I. Ralph
You are all forgetting the size difference between the countries in Europe compared to the US. There are still mass transit systems that run full in large cities. However, there is no way a mass commuter system could compete with the automobile in the less dense populations of small town America. Please don't suggest our government start regulating and subsidizing mass transit "FOR THE GOOD OF THE PEOPLE". We don't need a lot of burocrates making decisions for us on how we should travel around the country. It is bad enough that we will probably have national health care after this years election. I can hardly wait.
Steve Featherkile said:
Well, I wouldn't mind taking the train for long distance journeys. I'm not sure that using light rail would work for my situation here in Deer Park.My job is in downtown Spokane, more than 20 miles away. As it is now, there is no bus that leaves from Deer Park, going anywhere, except one that would get me downtown well after job start time.
Now, if they were to use the existing rail line that goes through Deer Park from Spokane that wanders through the hinterland, finally getting to Hillyard, and then to Spokane, the journey would take two hours, minimum. It take me thirty minutes to drive there, and that is on surface streets, because the bonehead politicians and the local fishwrap have been fighting over the idea of a freeway for the last 40 or more years.
So, yeah, its all about me.
Can I finish banging my head on the wall now?
When did I say that everybody should use mass transit? And maybe you would have your freeway if somebody didn’t piss and moan about paying for it because they live across town and wouldn’t use it.
There are many areas that would benefit from efficient mass transit.
My point was…we had it in the past and tore it up.
Ralph
Oh, sorry, didn’t see that. There is a sort of highway that starts in Bellingham, WA, and connects several backcountry towns as it wends its way to Everett, WA. It’s a beautiful drive, though rarely used, thankfully, because it takes too long.
Any guess as to its name?
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Yep, you guessed it,
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It’s called Interurban. It’s the old roadbed for the light rail Interurban that was torn out in 1949. I’m told that I got one of the last rides on it.
Ralph, can I put a 16p nail in that board you are banging your head with? I’m told it helps with the pain. :lol:
I wouldn’t be able to see the nail…I’ve already gouged my eyes out.
Ralph
It’s a common problem. Everyone wants the convenience of mass transit, but don’t want the trappings that go with it (parking at stations, the trains themselves rolling by their back windows, etc.) We’re fighting that battle right now in Denver as we try to expand our light rail system to serve more and more communities. The ballot initiatives pass smoothly enough to fund them, but then when the government starts actually acquiring the land to do the project, everyone goes nutso. It’s always a great idea until you have to sacrifice to make it happen.
Then there’s the economics in terms of time vs. money/family/energy. I can take public transportation to my office, but my commute becomes 2 hours, as opposed to 30 minutes. That’s an extra 3 hours out of my day to save a few bucks on gas every week? Not worth it. I do try to take the light rail downtown for events, but I drive directly to the light rail station (12 minutes away). It’s still a bit counter-intuitive in terms of the time it takes, but two people can ride the train for the price of downtown parking, and the timing is only maybe double drivetime.
Quote:That's a very common thought process, but is inherently flawed. There are many public endeavors which could not exists if only those who received direct benefit payed for it. The truth is that "benefit" is really hard to quantify, and there are few--if any--projects that have absolutely no benefit for an individual. I don't have kids in school (yet), so why am I paying for education? Because it's the government's role in society to make sure the population is educated. Society cannot function without an educated population. Education could not exist if only those with children in the system paid for it. A single mom making a few pennies over minimum wage could never fund her own child's education, so where does that leave the kid? Why is mom only making minimum wage? Chances are, she herself is uneducated. This is most definitely a "greater good."
... ... I don't see why I should have to shell out more of my earned income or investment income on a project that doesn't benefit me or my family. If I used it, I would be willing to pay for it. ...
“Okay, that’s a no-brainer. What about sports arenas?”
Think along economic development lines. I’m not a sports fan. My life would be no less complete if baseball and football were to vanish eternally. But the tax revenue those teams generate for the community are huge. Remember that when your favorite quarterback signs a $30 million deal, the team is paying payroll taxes on that $30 million. Then there’s the sales tax on concessions, tickets, and the money spent by the public at nearby shops and restaurants that keep those areas active and revenue-generating. If a city wants to use my tax dollars to help build a stadium or make road/transportation improvements to make it easier for fans to get to the stadium, I’m fine with it. I know I’ll get a return on my investment.
Something a little closer to home–historic preservation. What would happen if the taxpayers of Colorado and New Mexico decided that since they get no benefit from historic preservation that they’re going to dump the Cumbres and Toltec? The people who use the railroad most certainly pay for it, but there’s a limit as to how much people can–and will–pay for a train ride. Without the subsidies from the state, the bottom falls out.
So, instead of the tax base being able to select what they want their tax dollars to specifically fund, everyone’s money gets lumped into a big pot and spent on things as its needed. We all have “beefs” with some of the projects our tax money gets spent on. But one person’s problem is another’s benefit. In the end, it all balances out. I may not like project “x”, but it will generate money that will make project “y” happen. Without “x”, “y” doesn’t happen.
Later,
K