PJ you make some good points. However most of them refer to good practices in laying track and keeping your rolling stock in good repair. I just model 3’ narrow gauge steam from the 1850 to 1941 time frame so I do not run a lot of long trains. Running out of battery power is something for people who run the big steam locos or diesels that pull the long strings of cars to come up with a solution. Maybe pulling several battery cars to extend run time. I do not have any problems running my engines longer than I want on a single charge. When I have friends over we run up to six separate engines at the same time and we have never experienced any consistent problems with running out of battery power before our sessions were over. Most of us have several engines and we like to swap them out during the day anyway. I must confess I do run one small section of track on track power. It is a streetcar line than runs through one of my towns. I just have it on automatic running back and forth and making one stop in the middle of the line. It is easier to do the controls for this with track power. Maintaining a fairly straight and level 25’ section of powered track for this purpose is easy to maintain. But I would never consider installing and maintaining 400 to 500 feet of undulating, curving powered track with many switches along the route. Don’t get me wrong, as at this time there are probably more railroads running track power than battery power. Good information on how to keep that track in operating condition is important and of great value to those modelers. I am not suggesting anyone is wrong in selecting track power over battery power. But I think battery power in the way of the future for garden railroads. In the long run there is nothing lost to people who currently run track power. If in the future they consider to switch to battery power they can offset the cost to switch to battery power by selling their old power supplies and trackside controllers. They can even keep them and use them to controll lighting and automation for their buildings and other track side structures. Bottom line, whichever power and control route we take in this hobby. we all still get to enjoy modeling and running our trains. And of course arguing which of us made the best choice. Something like do you prefer blonds, burnettes or red heads.
To reply to this “PJ” whover he/she/it is…I don’t normally reply to anyone who is so secretive to not give any information or show any proper name that a person can reply to in a respective manner…
Oh to have a railroad that has all the “Perfect” rail connections you claim to be able to accomplish. That isn’t reallity in the real world.
First; just like the real railroads; there is the matter of expansion, and contraction, which can only be resolved with some form of flexability in the track structure. So in order to have a rail joint both electricaly conductive, and mechanically sound, you have to build in flexability somehow.
The way the real pikes accomplish this is with “Bonding” for the electrical connection (Using actual wire with ends fused to adjoining sections of rail) and metal castings bolted with three bolts at each end to the rails. The rails are bolted together with allowance for expansion in the bolt holes, and the gap between rails.
Even the long sections of welded rail (CWR) are installed at a specific, neutral temperature with allowance at certain points for flexability, of both the rail and the electrical connections.
Rail clamps seem to be everyone’s favourite way of avoiding reality, and seem to work in most cases, but the fact remains that a flexable rail bonding with a wire attached by soldering between each rail is the most efficient, along with a rail joiner such as the Aristo style with two screws with allowance for expansion.
Where the problem is, is with most peoples’ inability to be able to properly solder, a talent easily learned, but few are interested.
As far as battery power as a replacement for track power…no it never will be for those that insist in the need for constantly having trains run round and round in circles…never ending. Or they are only interested in locomotives that draw so much current that batteries are not practicle.
To avoid conflict; I AM NOT IN ANYY WAY STATING THAT RUNNING IN CIRCLES OR ENJOYING BIG POWER IS WRONG…enjoy what you like…have fun.
Batteries are NOT necessarily the PROBLEM that some see them as. A lot of people who object to or are for some reason against them, only see or know of some falts that today have been overcome.
First; I am enjoying at least four hours of operation from my completely battery powered locomotives, and have been for over 6 years using simple old fashioned Gel cells. I do not have to take the batteries out of the tenders in order to charge them. (In 4 of the locos the Gel cells are 6 years old and are still holding a charge as when new. I use three 6 volt cells, charging two with a twelve volt charger and the other one with a 6 volt charger. The chargers are made especially for the Gel cells. the chargers simply plug into jacks on the tender)
There has been no need for any maintenance to these locomotives over the 6 years other than regular lubrication. I have never had to clean the wheels or the track for that mater.
As for memory problems with the batteries; I have had none. Everyone who wants too find fault with battery power uses this as their number two excuse.
Yes there were some problems with some batteries, but not enough to cause anyone to avoid batteries as a means to a completely flexable operating system.
Anyone who understands the concept of the OPERATION of a railroad, in model form, larger than a simple loop style layout; will understand the need to go beyond the old “Block Control” idea of the old days of HO and other scale indoor layouts. Battery/Radio control gives us that flexability without the depenancy on the ALWAYS uncertain, and inefficient dependancy on rail wheel contact, out in the real world of outdoor model railroading.
Finally…there is a place, and need for track power, and a place and need for battery/ radio control. There should never be any rejection from people from either camp, of the merits of both, each in it’s place.
Please whoever you are…sign your name so we can address you in an appropriate respectful manner.
Thank you in advance.
The “Duck walk” or wiggling of rolling stock is not usually caused by any normal style of rail joiners, but is usually caused by an unstable or uneven roadbed…but here again is a subject of many opinions, each having its own following, and seldom do many agree on what is best.
Roadbed determines the basic quality of any track that you will ever operate on, but few take the time to prepare a roadbed, fit to provide a base for the track that today costs us all, the most money we send on our hobby.
Most seem to be content trying to spend the least money to provide the worst choice of something to support the thing they spend the most money on. Go figure.!!
Hi Fred,
you wrote: Please whoever you are…sign your name so we can address you in an appropriate respectful manner. Thank you in advance.
Sorry Fred, my address and member data is up to date, and i am sorry to see that you missed the previous discussion about my name. HJ knows me for years, we talked for many years in a German forum, so don’t be afraid that i am just one of this fakes.
Here again for you, my Name is Pius Job and since most Americans have a hard time spelling that right, i prefer if people call me PJ. All my family and friends cal me just PJ, that is the way it is for 20 years, and if you call me PJ i do not feel offended.
You wrote: Oh to have a railroad that has all the “Perfect” rail connections you claim to be able to accomplish. That isn’t reallity in the real world
I Fully agree with you, nothing in this world is perfect, and if it would be so, this world would be a terrible boring place. Here again, it is always possible to improve, for me it meant that i produced my own rail joiners since i did not like the off shelf ones. http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/krs/PJ-0035.doc How ever, so far i had about 450 people visiting my layout, many many of them noticed and many times even commented on how smooth my trains are running. (no duck walk) Pleas do not get me wrong, i fully agree with road bed work, and expansion theorie. How ever, if track looks like a saw blade while putting it down, you will have a hard time to get it flat on the ground. Since my track is laid on dirt (not screwed down) i have no trouble with any expansion. here again, a perfect mounted rail joiner is important to keep track perfect joined, even if the track expands and contracts all the time.
Fred you mentioned the gel battery. I am aware of this battery’s, and i can image that they fit in any american diesel engine. My point there is that they never fit in a steam engine, therefore you end up having to use NiMh or LiPo batteries. Even if you go for the smaller battery’s, the amount you can store in a steamer is limited. By the way, narrow gauge steamers like most of the LGB ones, do not have a tender. Like always, i can just speak for my self, steamers and battery power do not work for me, i am not sure if it would be ok to say that such solution always works.
You wrote: As for memory problems with the batteries; I have had none.
You stated that you use Gel Battery’s, so your statement that you have no problems with lost battery memory is correct. This problem occurs only with NiMh/NiCd/ or liPo batteries. So if others who can’t use gel batteries point out that lost memory is a problem, then their statement is correct.
think global Pius
I am already on record as stating I would like to convert to RC/battery power eventually.
However, RC does come with some problems of its own. The biggest being reception problems even when well within the manufacturers stated range.
I’ve put on my flame suit…even RC/Battery power is not perfect!
Ralph
Ralph Berg said:Ralph,
I am already on record as stating I would like to convert to RC/battery power eventually. However, RC does come with some problems of its own. The biggest being reception problems even when well within the manufacturers stated range. I've put on my flame suit..........even RC/Battery power is not perfect! Ralph
I’m on record as being willing to “suffer” with the ZIMO DCC system in the garden environment. To atone for that “sin” I buy the Llagas track and a few other items from a reliable source. 
Keeps the ribbing to a bearable level. 
Thank you for your detailed reply, Pius.
I am sorry for my mis-understanding.
Yes Gel cells do take up more room and are of a greater weight, but they do fit well into the tender of the B’mann Annies, the LGB Mogul, and the B’mann Connie, which are the locos I use in my operation.
Ralph Berg said:Ok, you asked for it!
I am already on record as stating I would like to convert to RC/battery power eventually. However, RC does come with some problems of its own. The biggest being reception problems even when well within the manufacturers stated range. I've put on my flame suit..........even RC/Battery power is not perfect! Ralph
I get way more range than required for my layout…never a prob with RCS!
so that wasn’t too harsh was it?
Cale,
Most people do get the range advertised. But some people do have problems.
Wireless is nice, but not infallible.
Ralph
what a surprise–a thread about the price of track turns into a thread about the virtues of battery power. Threads about nearly every subject sooner or later have someone chiming in to say that battery operation would solve all the problems, bring peace in our time, end the israeli/palestinian conflict, etc.
If someone offered this very evening to convert all my engines to battery for free, and toss in the batteries, chargers, and remotes, I’d say “no thank you, track power is working very nicely for what I want to do.” It just makes no sense for my little railroad. It would be an annoyance and a hindrance.
That same someone would no doubt be eager to tell me that the way I roll is wrong or impure or un-islamic, and that the pleasure my family and neighbors take from the train is a foolish or illusory pleasure compared to the manifest joys that await you after you convert to battery and get the seventy virgins and the feast and etc. .
It’s like some kind of odd religion. Or maybe all religions are odd? I’m a skeptical secularist and an autodidact, so what do I know of evangelism? Only that it irks me.
Meanwhile, Lewis Polk’s post seem pretty ridiculous indeed, as I watch trains run on a mix of LGB and aristo and AML track and no apparent differences in the ways the train runs on each brand.
But then again it’s code 332 track, and so impure and an apostasy and un-islamic…
Mike the subject is still about the price of track but moved on to talk about why different suppliers of brass track charged different prices due to the composition of the brass. Then it went to the virtues of what type of brass was better. Then it went to using the cheapest type of track available especially if you were using battery power. It all sounds connected to me. This thread was just expanding on the original topic but still keeping the price of track as the basis of the discussion. Now if we started to delve into the complexities of track power controll for return loops or wyes or turn-tables shunting engines into engine houses than I would agree with you.
mike omalley said:It also cures baldness, the common cold, slices -n- dices and makes hundreds of julianne fries. Heck the only thing it won't do is falter on dirty track!! :)
what a surprise--a thread about the price of track turns into a thread about the virtues of battery power. Threads about nearly every subject sooner or later have someone chiming in to say that battery operation would solve all the problems, bring peace in our time, end the israeli/palestinian conflict, etc.
You can’t stop what Mother Nature does to metal outdoors.
Well… you can slow it down a bit with expensive Stainless Steel track, but still the most cost effective method of powering all Large Scale trains outdoors is battery power running on Aluminium track.
Period.
With or without R/C.
Track power might work well for a few years in moderate climates. It might work well for many years in a dry climate. But it will not work reliably in most climates for most people without eventually requiring time consuming never ending maintenance.
BTW PJ.
It isn’t NiMh batteries that develop a “memory” effect.
That is NiCd chemistry and it only happens if you repeatedly fast charge partially discharged cells. It will not happen to NiCd if you use a proper conditioning charger, or, the manufacturer recommended 10% trickle charge for 14 hours.
NiMh cells do have problems.
They last only half as long (in terms of the number of recharges they can take) as NiCd and they self discharge whilst sitting and doing nothing.
I still have no experience of Li-Pol or Li-Ion batteries other than in my cell phones and various cameras. So I will not comment on them other than to say as yet there are way to many horror stories for me to get seriously involved.
Please re-read any contributions I have made where battery radio control was part of my note…
I always said that there is a place for both radio control/battery operation, and track power.
I have never condemmed track power.
I have never bad mouth track power, through lack of knowledge, or experience with it.
At one time I had extensive trackage using track power. It included block control for multi train operation on single track, with reverse loops and every concievable thing you would find with track control.
We actually operated with it.
I think with that experience, I can speak for or against track power, in various situations, along with my extensive experience using battery/radio control; I think I can be an honest critic of both types of power and control systems.
I notice that the most feverish of the defenders of track power, usualy lack any actual in depth experience with battery/radio control .
From meeting many anti rc/battery people; they often tend to be defensive due to lack of knowledge. Most seem to have very little practicle knowledge of electricity, to the point of not even understanding the wiring of a reverse loop.
When it has been suggested to them, that the purchase of a few available books on “How to wire your model railroad”, would inhance their knowledge and solve a lot of their problems; I have met with such comments as: “Those are no good to us as they are all for HO or smaller scales”.
With an attitude like that, how can anyone try to talk of the merrits of different metals; sizes of rail, or least of all how to connect it all together with any hope of aggreement from the masses.
Come on guys; it isn’t us against you…we all are playing with toys and finding success in different ways. We try to share our positive experiences, with the hope that others can share them too.
We sometimes share our enjoyment of holy waters too, but it seems that someone even doesn't like that on here either.....!!!!Fred Mills said:Fr. Fred, Hilarious. Ralph
"Those are no good to us as they are all for HO or smaller scales".
Track power is the only reasonable system for powering G scale because it is cheaper than batteries and aluminum track.
Tony, I think the majority of people who buy trains start on track power, and even getting them to buy aluminum instead of brass does not make buying batteries cheaper.
Read your statement, you say aluminum rail and batteries is cheaper than track power. The people running aluminum rail with track power blows your statement. The people running brass track blow your statement.
Maybe the cheapest R/C system is aluminum rail and your system and batteries… I would be willing to take you on with a QSI only added to my trains and DCC, just total it up for 100 locos with 100 batteries, i.e. concentrate on the per loco cost… is the cost of a battery, r/c board, installation, and a charger cheaper than the $127 my QSI costs?
OK, by now you are probably boiling… I really don’t want to get into a war, but your blanket statement is not true…
" but still the most cost effective method of powering all Large Scale trains outdoors is battery power running on Aluminium track.
Period.
With or without R/C.
"
not true in all cases…
by the way, on a more informative note:
There is “memory effect” on nickle metal hydrides
the “memory effect” can be caused by other things
and the “memory effect” is usually used for internal shorts and damage to the electrolyte, both different failures…
Regards, Greg
Ralph Berg said:Are you guys trying to tell me that what works for HO will work for Large Scale???? What????? They are completely different machines! And what is so special about wiring a reverse track? And what's this about blocks? Are you talking about the blockheads we sometimes meet in this hobby?Fred Mills said:Fr. Fred, Hilarious. Ralph
"Those are no good to us as they are all for HO or smaller scales".
Sheesh! I think I’m gonna go back to 3 rail.
OK Greg.
I admit I am wrong because I left out 8 words from this:
[color=blue]Track power might work well for a few years in moderate climates. It might work well for many years in a dry climate. But it will not work reliably in most climates for most people without eventually requiring time consuming never ending maintenance.[/color]
The words I should have added were …[color=blue]plus the cost of clamps on every joint.[/color]
Once those costs have been added to brass or stainless steel track I am more than correct in saying …but still the most cost effective method of powering all Large Scale trains outdoors is battery power running on Aluminium track.
Period.
With or without R/C.
Sorry Mike, I was wrong and you were right. It looks like this thread is starting to disintegrate and go off the topic of the expense of buying track. Does anyone remember the words of the great Rodney King after he was beaten up by the LA police “Can’t we all just get along?”
Possibly dragging this back on-topic.
I like the look of weathered brass track. The ‘whiteness’ of aluminum track is jarring to me, and I try and limit its use in the garden. I’m using AMS code 250 track mostly, with some switches aluminum, and some of brass. I intend on painting the alum rail brownish.
I’m battery/rc.
YMMV